Re: Message from Moscow
Posted by
Steve Smith on
Nov 03, 2013; 5:50pm
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/Message-from-Moscow-tp7584171p7584209.html
Pamela, Jochen, et al-
I wonder how it is that many of us claim that what Snowden
disclosed, "we already knew", yet it takes his overt disclosure to
raise our ire? I'm asking this as genuinely as I can, not trying
to undermine the (possible) transformation underway, but trying to
refine it's quality. To expand the debate beyond simple outrage
and simple defensiveness.
I'm no expert on International law, but it does seem that the US
Intelligence apparatus and Executive Branch is hiding behind some
sort of presumed "of course we all do this!" argument not
dissimilar to the post-911 approach to torture... we first assert
"we don't torture" and then we follow with the circular argument
that "since we don't torture, then whatever we are doing at the
moment isn't torture!". It seems that international law (e.g.
Geneva Convention, etc.) depends entirely on voluntary compliance
and to a lesser extent "censure by our peers". I think the
grassroots support around the world (especially our nominal
allies) and the leadership (especially when it is as personal as
it became with Merkel) can lead to a significant change in "what
is acceptable". The US has been in a position for some time that
appears to be "beyond censure"... I hope we can change that.
I'm hoping that the debate about what kind of country we want to
be (domestic policy, foreign policy, fiscal policy) will be
radically different before the 2016 circus than it was in 2008.
Without trying to explain precisely why our Hopey-Changey
administration has failed to make many of the changes it promised,
it seems evident to me that much stronger or more fundamental
changes need to be made than happens when we switch out blue ties
and black shoes for red ties and brown shoes or vice-versa.
I doubt that Gary Johnson can win a presidential election, but I
sincerely hope he can engage in the process and inform, or even
lead aspects of the debate. I'm not sure I would actually want
him as a president (or any Libertarian) but I do think their
perspective can significantly move the conversation to more
relevant topics. I wish we had a Green party more aligned with
that of the EU in general... I'd be more inclined to want a Green
steering our ship than a Red (Republican), Blue (Democrat) or
???(Libertarian) with their various flavors of
Capitalism-cum-growth-Consumerism-at-all-costs doctrines.
Thanks for your thoughtful reply, Jochen. If I were Frau Merkel,
I'd be damned mad myself. As today's NY Times put it, the National
Security Agency "emerges as an electronic omnivore of staggering
capabilities, eavesdropping and hacking its way around the world
to strip governments and other targets of their secrets, all the
while enforcing the utmost secrecy about its own operations. It
spies routinely on friends as well as foes, as has become obvious
in recent weeks; the agency's official mission list includes using
its surveillance to achieve "diplomatic advantage" over such
allies as France and Germany and "economic advantage" over Japan
and Brazil, among other countries."
So the atmosphere is changing in the U.S. too. I quoted from
a front page article, not an editorial.
Pamela
Good question, Pamela. I don't know. Yes, there is a
chance.
At the moment probably not, the pressure from the US
is too
strong, but the situation is about to change slowly.
The German government already denied asylum to
Snowden
a few months ago. Now the situation has changed,
though.
The Chancellor has been reelected and a new
government is
about to be formed. If the Green party would rule, I
think
asylum would be granted immediately. The Green party
is like
the political arm of Greenpeace, it is strongly
against any
kind of war, environmental pollution or nuclear
energy. They
support nonviolence, social justice, sustainable
development
and renewable energy. And by the way it is my
favorite party.
Unfortunately they are probably not part of the
government
this time, although they got 8.4% of the votes in
the federal
election. Hans-Christian Ströbele who visited Edward
Snowden
is a leading member of this party, and he also is
the longest
serving member of the Parliamentary Control Panel,
the
part of Germany's parliament which supervises the
intelligence
agencies.
The ruling conservative party is tradtionally in
favor of strong
trans-atlantic relationships, but the recent
revelations
have changed a lot. Until now, the German government
seems
to have thought they could trust the American
government,
at least to a certain degree. That trust is largely
gone.
When she learned that US intelligence agencies
tapped and
monitored her cell phone for years and decades,
chancellor
Angela Merkel was really upset and angry. She uses
her
phone quite frequently, and she is still deeply
disappointed and frustrated.
As a first step, I have heard she is currently
preparing
a UN resolution together with Brazilian president
Dilma
Rousseff against spying and snooping on the
Internet.
But I believe the anger and frustration is still not
strong enough to act against the interests of the
US,
which has issued a warrant for Snowden's arrest.
I wonder what will happen if it goes on like this.
Will
the European governments finally change their mind
about
the US? Or will something change in the US? I am
currently
reading "The last train from Berlin" from Howard K.
Smith,
where he describes life in Germany at the time of
WWII.
He says the Third Reich was like a rotten apple with
a
thick, shiny skin. The skin that's the army, the
military, and the secret state police. The core
that's the
society, the infrastructure, the cities and the
economy.
America under the Bush administration started to
look
like this, a rotten apple which looks shiny on the
outside,
but bad within. Impressive aircraft carriers in the
Persian
Gulf, but rotten cities like Detroit at home. I
wonder if
Obama can really change anything/something for the
better. I think he can.
Jochen
On 11/01/2013 03:13 PM, Pamela McCorduck wrote:
Any chance Germany will give Snowden asylum, Jochen?
A high ranking German politician has
spoken with Edward Snowden in Moscow. Here
is the letter he brought back:
-J.
Sent from Android
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