Posted by
Steve Smith on
Nov 04, 2012; 9:18pm
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/The-Presidential-Election-tp7580914p7580930.html
Jochen -
Thanks for stirring the pot as an outsider. I have kept my hands
off of it here because I *do* respect those whose politics I don't
agree with and feel the need to have a little restraint. I think
you are correct that there is a larger contingent of left-leaners
than right-leaners on this list, though I'm sure there are many
who share some of the conventional principles of the US
"conservative" perspective. I think the demographic here is
intrinsically somewhat leftish (higher educations and somewhat
academic...)
I agree that people don't generally change their opinions *during*
a dialog/discussion. It would be someone who had not considered
their position very much who could be persuaded so quickly or
easily. In fact, I agree that the point of discussion is to
reframe the questions, not to convince one or the other of the
answers to the questions already decided on going in to the
discussion. I have made massive shifts in my perspective in 40
years as something like an adult... but I did it one small step at
a time... and usually *in spite of* the bludgeoning (or foghorns
as Nick may have suggested) by the opposition. And I feel better
for it... I *earned* my opinions, I didn't simply adopt them from
my parents or my peers... or at best, I composed them from a
smorgasboard offered up by myriad positions.
I voted early and I might as well have had the option for pulling
a single lever to vote a "straight" (blue) ticket. There was
little if anything on the Red ticket to interest me. I came close
to voting for Gary Johnson. Yes, he's a New Mexico homeboy and
that influenced me because while I disagree with a lot of his
specific stances and some of his broad ones, he represents the
"evil I know". I know what he did (and didn't do) for NM during
his tenure as Governer and I know we could do a lot worse. I
voted for Obama because I want him and his staff to have 4 more
years to see through the things they started. I voted for Obama
because I patently *don't* want the same people who brought us
Bush/Cheney/Wolfie/Rummy/et al 12 years ago back in the seat of
power. I voted for Obama because I believe he most likely is
doing his best to resolve many of the problems I care about, no
matter how hard that is in the environment he is working in, and
no matter how much perspective he simply cannot have at this
point. If his education as a lawyer didn't destroy him, and his
time in congress didn't then surely being POTUS for a term or two
will leave him a very changed man. I look forward to reading his
memoirs in 30 years if I live that long.
I have almost NO sympathy for the current right wing
party/government/etc. in the US... but I have a lot of sympathy
for many of the little people who support them... the humble
working people, often rural, usually struggling at some level with
their livelihood. I defend them in their relative lack of
perspective which allows (requires?) them to support what I
believe is a deliberately high contrast (black and white) set of
issues. Most are probably completely unfamiliar with
homosexuality and mostly unfamiliar with recreational drugs beyond
alcohol, tobacco and some weed. Many are not religious in any
scary way, though most would claim to believe in God and some
would even go to church nearly every Sunday or at least Christmas
and Easter. Most work in the context of something we call
"extractive" industries, though when they or their parents first
engaged in the practices of ranching or farming or lumbering or
mining, it wasn't so obvious that it was going to become such a
problem... and in fact... it was what all progress of that era was
built on. What little service industry existed was riding
directly on top of the dairies, the mines, the farms, the ranches,
the sawmills just down the road.
That said, I also have very little sympathy for the rich or
elite/ivory-tower Left either. My sympathy are for the little
people who support them... the more typically *urban* poor or at
least the labor class and many in the service industries. The
marginalized, the under-represented ... minorities and women
and... I believe that these people came to their view of a
stronger social system and a stronger regulatory environment
honestly... by moving into cities, taking work in factories, or in
the service industry, they put themselves at the mercy of a system
while their country cousins were at the mercy of mother nature and
their immediate neighbors... We are living increasingly urban,
and our work is increasingly abstracted from the earth, and I
believe that the needs of our society are more centered where the
left's sympathies lie. But that doesn't make for a black and
white situation... the left *is* guilty of some wishful thinking
and creative accounting and maybe over-reaction leading to
reverse-discrimination and over-regulation and ...
Out of all the "polls" out there, I believe in the Iowa Markets
"proxy" for a poll the most. While "betting" or "investing" on
ideas has it's own problems, I think it is always easier to trust
the stated opinions of people who "put their money where their
mouth is" rather than just flap their gums (like I am here). I'd
be curious if there were psychological analysis of the Iowa
Market's process. I *don't* believe it represents a simple and
pure and clean "free market". I do believe people are mixing
their honest beliefs in the outcome of the election (in this case)
with their wishful or fearful thinking.
- Steve
Hi
Nick,
yes, it is similar where I live, although we have more parties in
Germany (conservative, socialist, liberal and green parties). No,
people usually do not change their mind in political discussions.
They change their mind during the course of time, though. I
changed my mind for example about our own chancellor, Angela
Merkel: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Angela_Merkel
. In the beginning I had doubts. She looks a bit clumsy and grumpy
sometimes, and there are certainly politicians who have more
charisma. But over the years I learned to appreciate her honesty,
her modesty, and her kindness. She said she wants to serve her
country, and she really does. She would never lie intentionally.
This may seems obvious, but how can you trust someone who lies?
What about you, do you vote for Romney, Obama or someone else,
like Gary Johnson? From a psychological aspect, this election is
interesting, isn't it?
-J.
Am 04.11.2012 03:39, schrieb Nicholas Thompson:
Jochen,
At this week's FRIAM meeting, we talked briefly about politics and it was
clear that there was some disagreement around the table. We were about to
let it go, on that ground, when I decided, spurred by my newly embraced
pragmatist ideology, to beg that they all put their minds for 5 minutes to
the question, "How do we go about having a conversation with people with
whom we disagree? A conversation that would actually get somewhere."
Our usual way of proceding is what I call "FogHorns on a Shrouded Bay."
Each individual sounds off while the others listen politely or check their
email on their cell phones. That goes around the circle a couple of times,
and then people just drop the topic and go on to something else.
On the whole, most people I know would rather be force fed castor oil than
be convinced to change their minds.
So, back to you, Jochen. Is it truly different where you are? Have you
ever sat in on a political discussion in which anybody ever changed his or
her mind? How did that happen?
Nick
From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Jochen Fromm
Sent: Saturday, November 03, 2012 3:20 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Presidential Election
Interesting read. Sometimes we wonder why other peoples voting decisions are
fundamentally different from ours even if all good reasons speak against it.
Are they backward or brainwashed? Jonathan Haidt has written a book named
"The Righteous Mind" where he argues that people don't really listen to
arguments or reasons. Guided by their emotions, they often come to a quick
conclusion what is good or bad, and this decision is in accordance with
their worldview and their moral system (regardless how skewed it may be).
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/the-righteous-mind-by-jonatha
n-haidt.html?pagewanted=all
<http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/25/books/review/the-righteous-mind-by-jonath
an-haidt.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0> &_r=0
-J.
Am 03.11.2012 21:18, schrieb Roger Critchlow:
Here's how backward the conservative heart of america beats:
http://www.thebaffler.com/past/the_long_con
-- rec --
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at
http://www.friam.org