Posted by
Steve Smith on
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/Faith-tp7580633p7580784.html
Doug -
Pretending to be "one of the more sensitive members of the list",
this sounds a lot like "the only good Injun is a dead Injun"...
But that isn't what I want to take exception to... what I want to
take exception to is that you or I or anyone else gets to decide
that behaviours which offend us are somehow "less fit" than those
we approve of. The fitness function is what it is, not what we
want it to be... and there are many situations where what you and
I would call incredibly offensive or bad behaviour is actually in
some sick (by our measure) way, highly fit.
Or as a corollary, you and I don't get to decide what the "ideal
society" is and declare all "antisocial" (relative to that ideal)
are unfit and will be culled.
I would claim that some (all?) of the worst behaviours we know of
are the precise result of natural selection. Our corrupt
politicians, our paedophilic priests, violent gangs, etc *are*
precisely what is being selected for. Maybe a case can be made
for the opposite simultaneously... that kindness and altruism can
also have a high fitness (at least for the group, if not the
individual)...
Darwinian selection works *through* extinctions... whatever is
left after the presumed "total extinction" of our species will be
what was selected for. Maybe the meek will inherit the earth.
Maybe our presumed imminent anthropogenic extinction event will
remove all vertebrate life or maybe just the meanest, most
aggressive peoples of the earth (those with
nuclear/biological/chemical weapons)?
I contend it is a fanciful understanding of Darwinian Evolution to
presume that it is going to cull what we find offensive or in fact
dangerous to our own interests. Someone who believes (in doxastic
terms, a peculiar or unstable reasoner?) that all drivers are out
to get them when they are on a motorcycle (which has a high
survival fitness while riding a motorcycle, but is nevertheless
not correct) might also apply similar reasoning to natural
evolution and fitness.
Your rhetoric is compelling to me *as* rhetoric... I *like* the
idea that gang members, prurient patriarchs and plutocratic
politicians are somehow less fit for survival in the current
milieu than you and I and all our present company... but that
doesn't make it true.
It seems to me that our role as conscious beings capable of
forming societies is to not only form societies that meet our
needs, but to (eventually) come to understand the complex dynamics
of societies well enough to create and follow rules that not only
*would seem to* lead to the ideals we seek, but in fact,
*actually* lead to them?
I think this is far from a solved problem, but many of us *are
capable* of recognizing that first order cause-effect rules isn't
sufficient. Forbid your priests to have sex while giving them
absolute authority over the spiritual lives of their flock and
*some* will become sex abusers... and in attempting to hide this
consequence we end up institutionalizing it. Remove conventional
social structures and opportunities for self esteem and material
success from children and some will create their own through what
we call "gang activity". Let that go on for a generation or two
and it will become endemic to our various socioeconomic landscapes
(urban, suburban, rural, poor, middle class, rich, black, brown,
yellow, red, white). Et cetera. Ad Nauseum. Illegimatus non
Carborundum. Semper Fi.
- Steve
PS... I think I have got to take my thumb off this transmit
switch!
Still, irrespective of whomever coined that old
"fittest" rubric, dead gang members are far more productive
members of society than live ones, I suspect.
On Sep 26, 2012 9:48 PM, "Nicholas
Thompson" <
[hidden email]>
wrote:
Darwinism
only says that the least prolific will be eliminated.
It says nothing about degeneracy, unless, of course
profligacy is defined as “advanced.” Spencer was the
social Darwinist, not Darwin. In fact, it was
SPENCER, who coined “the survival of the fittest”, I
believe.
N
From:
[hidden email]
[mailto:[hidden email]] On
Behalf Of Douglas Roberts
Sent: Wednesday, September 26, 2012 9:03 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] faith
Well, speaking from my own (apparent) semi-unique
perspective: Darwin's proposition of "Survival of the
Fittest" would seem to scream out for the elimination of
degenerate components of society which threaten to bring
the entire species to total extinction.
And, being an engineer, I cannot
but cheer and encourage any activity that speeds the
destruction of those destructive elements of society.
Like gang conflicts, for example. And religion, for
another. Not that there is much difference, really.
--Doug
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 6:33 PM,
Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]>
wrote:
On Wed, Sep 26, 2012 at 2:40
PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]>
wrote:
Tory -
Why is the idea
of two differing but synergistic approaches
so challenging to so many on this list? Or
are you arguing for the fun of the game?
I'm
pretty sure both the Monkey and the Weasel are
in it for the endorphins released.
I don't think I'm talking
about two differing approaches.
Some beliefs are so common
that no one even thinks about them. Many people
deny that they're beliefs at all. Other beliefs
extend and explain and modify the common ones in
different ways. But I say we're all believers
on this bus, some are just more conscious of it.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505-455-7333"
value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333
- Office
<a moz-do-not-send="true" href="tel:505-670-8195"
value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195
- Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at
http://www.friam.org