First things first: the bumper sticker. It is, sadly, real, and not just a photoshopped artifact:It came out of Georgia, and the woman who created it was shocked, just shocked, that people would think it racist.More to come...On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 8:44 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug -
You may be correct that the tools are insufficient and/or distancing through abstraction... and yes it may be a side show. But as you point out, a side show that has not even been mounted.I don't disagree that these are the *symptoms* we experience/observe. But I'm still more than a little curious about the *causes*. You might posit (I think you did! ) that the *cause* of various irrational, hateful, harmful effects are "mass adherence to narrow, fundamental, religious dogma" and I can't really argue with you on that. But where the hell does *that* come from? Is it necessary?
Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental religious dogma, plus whatever the deep underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem to draw whole populations into those belief systems.
My suggestion of a model (at the risk of distancing through abstraction) is to seek a more "systematic" answer... *What* are those underlying psychological urges you speak of? Are there alternative systems of thinking and organization that might yield more desirable global behaviours?
What *fundamental* aspects of our systems of belief (religious, political, economic, social, etc.) are *guaranteed* to lead us there over and over. Call it Islam, call it Mormonism, call it Logical Positivism, but why does it so often lead us back to the same self-rightous, intolerant places? Were not most if not all religions founded or evolved or shaped around trying to fix the existing flaws in the systems previously in place?You may read different history books than I do. The history books I read illustrate *that* whole populations are drawn into dysfunctional behaviours supported by their belief systems (though depending on who wrote them, it is always a one-sided story, glorifying one set of dysfunction in contrast to another demonized set.
You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good history books.
I suggested *illumination* not *illustration*. I can look around, from your (existing only in photoshop I suspect) racist bumpersticker or just about every conversation I hear to have what we are talking about *illustrated*... but what I want to know is *what is it all about?*, is there anything to be done! CAN we get enough distance through abstraction to discover actionable or effectual changes in local strategy to effect global change?
Or do we just fall (dive headlong?) into a bubbling mass of xenophobic blame and/or self-righteous cynicism? I personally prefer the latter, but it really doesn't change anything for the better.
- Steve
Steve, you perhaps accidentally point out what in my opinion is the primary weakness of this so-called "Complexity" group. That weakness being, again solely in my opinion, an inability or perhaps an unwillingness to face the real substantive, important complexity issues that surround us.
Instead, the group nearly always proposes to study some superficial abstract, academic side issue. It doesn't seem to matter what the particular "complexity" issue du Jour is, the "solution" proposed, but never implemented by the members of this list is *always* some abstract, distancing, academic approach.
Not that I am picking on you, really I am not. But seriously, are you proposing to use an ABM to explain the societal effects of religious fundamentalism? That would be a side show. It would place a level of abstraction between the real issue and the observer which would totally mask the underlying causal issues.
Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful, harmful effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental religious dogma, plus whatever the deep underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem to draw whole populations into those belief systems.
You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good history books.
And if you want to understand why people are so prone to locking themselves into destructive, exclusive, egocentric world-views, well, good luck with that. I suspect however that game theoretics and ABMs are not the proper tools for the job.
--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hussein -
I hear you... many of us are challenged to defend the name of our God or our Faith or our gender or our cultural or genetic heritage or sexual orientation or hair color or set of our jaw. Even when obviously (but superficially?) motivated, these are false challenges and to accept them is a fools game.
The shrill voices against Islam (or even "ahem" Mormons) are not helping, even if some who act in it's name are doing horrific things. Those who paint with a broad brush can only slop their own paint on themselves...
From much distance at all, everyone else looks like "other".
I'm often disappointed with this list (myself included) that we invoke the terms of Complexity Science but don't often take it anywhere.
Is there a game theoretic model, or more to the point, an agent model based on game theoretic principles that might help to illuminate this phenomenon? The phenomena of personal vs shared belief, sectarianism, intolerance? Is there a small subset (in the spirit of the oft-cited MOTH strategy for prisoner's dilemma) of the phenomena that can show a bit of it?
- Steve
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Doug Roberts
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============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
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