Posted by
Steve Smith on
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/Fwd-America-and-the-Middle-East-Murder-in-Libya-The-Economist-tp7580459p7580481.html
Doug -
You may be correct that the tools are insufficient and/or
distancing through abstraction... and yes it may be a side show.
But as you point out, a side show that has not even been mounted.
Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful,
harmful effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental
religious dogma, plus whatever the deep
underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem to
draw whole populations into those belief systems.
I don't disagree that these are the *symptoms* we
experience/observe. But I'm still more than a little curious
about the *causes*. You might posit (I think you did! ) that the
*cause* of various irrational, hateful, harmful effects are "mass
adherence to narrow, fundamental, religious dogma" and I can't
really argue with you on that. But where the hell does *that*
come from? Is it necessary?
My suggestion of a model (at the risk of distancing through
abstraction) is to seek a more "systematic" answer... *What* are
those underlying psychological urges you speak of? Are there
alternative systems of thinking and organization that might yield
more desirable global behaviours?
What *fundamental* aspects of our systems of belief (religious,
political, economic, social, etc.) are *guaranteed* to lead us
there over and over. Call it Islam, call it Mormonism, call it
Logical Positivism, but why does it so often lead us back to the
same self-rightous, intolerant places? Were not most if not all
religions founded or evolved or shaped around trying to fix the
existing flaws in the systems previously in place?
You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few
good history books.
You may read different history books than I do. The history books
I read illustrate *that* whole populations are drawn into
dysfunctional behaviours supported by their belief systems (though
depending on who wrote them, it is always a one-sided story,
glorifying one set of dysfunction in contrast to another
demonized set.
I suggested *illumination* not *illustration*. I can look
around, from your (existing only in photoshop I suspect) racist
bumpersticker or just about every conversation I hear to have what
we are talking about *illustrated*... but what I want to know is
*what is it all about?*, is there anything to be done! CAN we get
enough distance through abstraction to discover actionable or
effectual changes in local strategy to effect global change?
Or do we just fall (dive headlong?) into a bubbling mass of
xenophobic blame and/or self-righteous cynicism? I personally
prefer the latter, but it really doesn't change anything for the
better.
- Steve
Steve, you perhaps accidentally point out what in my
opinion is the primary weakness of this so-called "Complexity"
group. That weakness being, again solely in my opinion, an
inability or perhaps an unwillingness to face the real
substantive, important complexity issues that surround us.
Instead, the group nearly always proposes to study some
superficial abstract, academic side issue. It doesn't seem to
matter what the particular "complexity" issue du Jour is, the
"solution" proposed, but never implemented by the members of
this list is *always* some abstract, distancing, academic
approach.
Not that I am picking on you, really I am not. But
seriously, are you proposing to use an ABM to explain the
societal effects of religious fundamentalism? That would be a
side show. It would place a level of abstraction between the
real issue and the observer which would totally mask the
underlying causal issues.
Those issues, of course, being the irrational, hateful,
harmful effects of mass adherence to narrow, fundamental
religious dogma, plus whatever the deep
underlying psychological urges are that constantly seem to draw
whole populations into those belief systems.
You don't need an ABM to illustrate that; you need a few good
history books.
And if you want to understand why people are so prone to
locking themselves into destructive, exclusive,
egocentric world-views, well, good luck with that. I suspect
however that game theoretics and ABMs are not the proper tools
for the job.
--Doug
On Fri, Sep 14, 2012 at 7:16 AM, Steve
Smith
<[hidden email]>
wrote:
Hussein -
I hear you... many of us are challenged to defend the
name of our God or our Faith or our gender or our
cultural or genetic heritage or sexual orientation or
hair color or set of our jaw. Even when obviously (but
superficially?) motivated, these are false challenges
and to accept them is a fools game.
The shrill voices against Islam (or even "ahem" Mormons)
are not helping, even if some who act in it's name are
doing horrific things. Those who paint with a broad
brush can only slop their own paint on themselves...
From much distance at all, everyone else looks like
"other".
I'm often disappointed with this list (myself included)
that we invoke the terms of Complexity Science but don't
often take it anywhere.
Is there a game theoretic model, or more to the point,
an agent model based on game theoretic principles that
might help to illuminate this phenomenon? The phenomena
of personal vs shared belief, sectarianism,
intolerance? Is there a small subset (in the spirit of
the oft-cited MOTH strategy for prisoner's dilemma) of
the phenomena that can show a bit of it?
- Steve
--
Los Alamos Visualization Associates
LAVA-Synergy
4200 W. Jemez rd
Los Alamos, NM 87544
www.lava3d.com
[hidden email]
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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at
http://www.friam.org