>
> All,
>
> Ok, so my questions about Rosen are of a really fundamental nature. You
> guys are already WAY down the track.
>
> In fact, could somebody clarify, in terms that a former english major
> would understand, what it means to say,
>
> "organisms are closed to efficient causation."
> I read it and I read it and I READ it and it just doesnt STICK!
>
> Would that amount to saying that Rosen believes that nothing is entailed
> by the fact that you just poked a tiger with a pool cue? Whereas, much
> is entailed by saying that you have just poked a pool ball with the same
> cue? If I changed the words above from "entailed by" to "implied by"
> or "inferable from", does Rosen get off the boat? Would anybody who
> accepted "organisms are closed" claim be willing to enter a tiger's cage
> with a pool cue KNOWING THAT the tiger had just been poked with the same
> pool cue?
>
> For the new year, I dream of a world in which no two people are allowed
> to argue in my electronic presence until the key AGREEMENTS that
> make their argument possible are made explicit. That is probably
> amounts to asking you all to be as dumb as I am. Hey! I can ask!
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> OTHER STUFF FROM THIS THREAD
>
> >
>
> >
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 10
> Date: Sat, 29 Dec 2007 08:43:31 -0800
> From: "Gus Koehler" <gus at timestructures.com>
> <mailto:<gus at timestructures.com>>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen
> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> <friam at redfish.com> <mailto: <friam at redfish.com>>
> Message-ID: <000001c84a39$f2e9d0a0$6401a8c0 at EA5E71A6DE4A4D9>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
>
> A Living System Must Have Noncomputable Models
> A. H. Louie
>
> Abstract: Chu and Ho's recent paper in Artificial Life is riddled with
> errors. In particular, they
> use a wrong definition of Robert Rosen's mechanism. This renders their
> "critical assessment" of
> Rosen's central proof null and void.
>
http://www.panmere.com/rosen/Louie_noncomp_pre_rev.pdf> <
http://www.panmere.com/rosen/Louie_noncomp_pre_rev.pdf>
>
> Gus Koehler, Ph.D.
> President and Principal
> Time Structures, Inc.
> 1545 University Ave.
> Sacramento, CA 95825
> 916-564-8683, Fax: 916-564-7895
> Cell: 916-716-1740
> www.timestructures.com <
http://www.timestructures.com>
> Save A Tree - please don't print this unless you really need to.
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com <mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> [
> mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com
> <mailto:mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com> ] On Behalf
> Of Joost Rekveld
> Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2007 5:34 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Robert Rosen
>
> Hi,
>
> apparently these articles have given rise to rebuttals, see http://
> <http://>
> www.panmere.com/?cat=18 <
http://www.panmere.com/?cat=18> for a
> survey of this discussion.
>
> I read 'Life Itself' a while ago, found it extremely interesting but
> not an
> easy read either. Later I read some of the essays from 'Essays on Life
> Itself", which helped. The biggest problem with Rosen's writing was
> for me
> that it is very concise; for a layman (like me) it would have been
> good to
> have a bit more flesh around his central argument, in the form of
> historical
> references and examples.
>
> Later I discovered the writings of Howard Pattee (an essay in the first
> Artificial Life proceedings) and Peter Cariani (his thesis from
> 1989 <
http://homepage.mac.com/cariani/CarianiWebsite/Cariani89.pdf>
> <
http://homepage.mac.com/cariani/CarianiWebsite/Cariani89.pdf>>
> and a later article for example <
http://homepage.mac.com/cariani/> <
http://homepage.mac.com/cariani/>
> CarianiWebsite/Cariani98.pdf>.
> I found both their writings more digestible.
>
> hope this helps,
>
> Joost.
>
> On Dec 29, 2007, at 5:03 AM, Russell Standish wrote:
>
> > By all means have a discussion. Rosen is not an easy read, nor
> easy to
> > talk about even. I have some grumbles with Rosen, which I mention in
> > my paper "On Complexity and Emergence", but these are fairly muted.
> > There've been some interesting articles recently in Artificial
> Life by
> > Chu & Ho that appear to disprove Rosen's central theorem. I suspect
> > their rather more rigourous approach crystalises some of my
> grumbles,
> > but I haven't found the time yet to try out the analysis more
> formally
> > myself.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On Fri, Dec 28, 2007 at 08:41:43PM -0700, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> >> All,
> >>
> >> On the recommendation of somebody on this list, I started reading
> >> Rosen's Life Itself. It does indeed, as the recommender suggested,
> >> seem to relate to my peculiar way of looking at such things as
> >> adaptation, motivation, etc. The book is both intriguing and
> >> somewhat over my head. Pied Piperish in that regard. So I am
> >> wondering if there are folks on the list who wold like to talk
> about
> >> it. By the way, does the fact that I am attracted to Rosen make
> me a
> >> category theorist? I am told that that is somewhat to the left of
> >> being an astrologer.
> >>
> >> Nick
> >>
>
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> Joost Rekveld
> -----------
http://www.lumen.nu/rekveld <
http://www.lumen.nu/rekveld>
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
> "This alone I ask you, O reader, that when you peruse the
> account of these marvels that you do not set up for yourself
> as a standard human intellectual pride, but rather the great
> size and vastness of earth and sky; and, comparing with
> that Infinity these slender shadows in which miserably and
> anxiously we are enveloped, you will easily know that I have
> related nothing which is beyond belief."
> (Girolamo Cardano)
>
> -------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>
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> End of Friam Digest, Vol 54, Issue 25
>
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>
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