Friam - When is something complex

Friam

When is something complex

Posted by Robert J. Cordingley on
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/When-is-something-complex-tp525080p525091.html

Isn't the problem because 'complexity' is an observational attribute and
not one that is intrinsic to the universe/domain? There will be no
agreement until a formalism can show a connection with prior formalisms
(IMHO). Yaneer's problem is that it depends on the language one uses.
Suppose we meet an entirely superior (alien) race that communicates
using much more compact information methods. Remember the encyclopedia
(or the library of congress - you choose) on a stick story? One very
precise measurement encoded the entire contents of the book(s).

I was wondering if the problem might be in the name 'complexity' and
that 'aggregation theory' might be a better name. Then I found this
paper on "Spatial Aggregation Theory" that might be a missing link to
Visualization?

http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/yip96spatial.html

Mind you, I'd need some help to get a thorough understanding of it. Any
takers?

Robert C

Mikhail Gorelkin wrote:

> ...let's use this: the minimal description, which "works". ? --Mikhail
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Phil Henshaw <mailto:sy at synapse9.com>
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 18, 2007 11:10 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
>
> ...maybe a definition that to go with Yaneer's riddle, and that
> fits with all, is that any individual thing is complex beyond
> measure and any explanations are all comparatively very simple,
> differing among them only by whether they work or not.
>
>
>
> Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.????
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> NY NY 10040
> tel: 212-795-4844
> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com <mailto:pfh at synapse9.com>
> explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> *From:* friam-bounces at redfish.com
> [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] *On Behalf Of *Mikhail Gorelkin
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:31 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
>
> It seems I found a more fundamental definition: "So, if you
> want to characterize the complexity of an object, think about
> how much you would have to write in order to describe it.
> Would it take a sentence, a paragraph, a few pages, a book, or
> many books? Count the number of characters in the description.
> This is complexity." --Yaneer Bar-Yam "Making things works.
> Solving complex problems in a complex world", p. 54. So,
> linear systems have simpler and shorter descriptions than
> non-linear ones. And the same is true for centralized vs.
> decentralized systems... Any thoughts? --Mikhail
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Alfredo CV <mailto:agbioinfo at gmx.net>
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <mailto:friam at redfish.com>
> *Sent:* Tuesday, September 18, 2007 1:42 AM
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
>
>
>
> To decide if a phenomena is complex maybe It's necessary
> to identify *patterns of self organization in the
> "behavior" *of the small units of individual that conform
> the population of interest. Maybe It's necesary to check
> the *lack of centralized control* and the* existence of
> some stable states*. I think these three features are the
> diagnostic features of complexity. I guess....
>
> I don't know what Hayes says but I'll think about these
> three features for health insurance, medicare, Social
> Security and Pensions in my country... (in fact is not
> mine, belongs to the richest and the multinationals....
> anyhow).
>
> Regards
>
> Alfredo CV
>
>
> health insurance,
> Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and the uninsured
>
>
>
> Mikhail Gorelkin wrote:
>> +1: I guess that complexity cannot be expressed adequately even in a term of computability. ? --Mikhail
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mikhail Gorelkin" <gorelkin at hotmail.com>
>> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <friam at redfish.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
>>
>>
>>
>>> Just two thoughts: 1) it seems that complexity is a more fundamental category than linearity / non-linearity, which are parts of a
>>> sophisticated ***formal*** system; 2) I assume there are types of complexity (and, therefore, many - I mean really many - types)
>>> that cannot be expressed in any formal system (beyond linearity / non-linearity). Something like G?del's theorem. ? --Mikhail
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
>>> To: <friam at redfish.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 4:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Alfredo,
>>>>
>>>> Good question. In fact, the question of the day, for the Hayes talk.
>>>>
>>>> Mysterious non linear effects in Hayes data leading to the conclusion good
>>>> hearted efforts in one direction lead to the opposite result.
>>>>
>>>> I guess "mysterious non-linearity" is a good clue that the phenomenon is
>>>> complex.
>>>>
>>>> Nick .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:12:09 -0500
>>>>> From: Alfredo CV <agbioinfo at gmx.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] **today ** Lecture Wed Sep 12 12:30p: Jim Hayes -
>>>>> Hedging Complex and Chaotic Private Health Insurance Markets and the
>>>>> Uninsured
>>>>> To: stephen.guerin at redfish.com, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
>>>>> Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>>>> Message-ID: <46EC1269.7080008 at gmx.net>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course it?s impossible to me to know details of the speeches you
>>>>> usually have. In the distance I suppose that the first purpose of each
>>>>> one of these speeches is to know and evaluate a broad type of cases
>>>>> where complexity is used to understand phenomena. I wonder what makes
>>>>> some phenomena suitable to be studied with a "complex" approach. What
>>>>> must somebody take in consideration to decide that is studying a complex
>>>>> phenomena?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alfredo CV
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ============================================================
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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