When is something complex

Posted by David Breecker on
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/When-is-something-complex-tp525080p525085.html

I'm reminded of the statement that "the earth is the simplest useful  
simulation of itself." (Can't remember the source.)  Perhaps if the  
amount of information required to "describe" a system or object  
starts to approach the amount contained in the system or object  
itself... ?
db

On Sep 18, 2007, at 8:30 AM, Mikhail Gorelkin wrote:

> It seems I found a more fundamental definition: ?So, if you want to  
> characterize the complexity of an object, think about how much you  
> would have to write in order to describe it. Would it take a  
> sentence, a paragraph, a few pages, a book, or many books? Count  
> the number of characters in the description. This is complexity.? --
> Yaneer Bar-Yam ?Making things works. Solving complex problems in a  
> complex world?, p. 54. So, linear systems have simpler and shorter  
> descriptions than non-linear ones. And the same is true for  
> centralized vs. decentralized systems? Any thoughts? --Mikhail
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: Alfredo CV
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 1:42 AM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
>
>
>
> To decide if a  phenomena is complex maybe It's necessary to  
> identify patterns of self organization in the "behavior" of the  
> small units of individual that conform the population of interest.  
> Maybe It's necesary to check the lack of centralized control and  
> the existence of some stable states.  I think these three features  
> are the diagnostic features of complexity. I guess....
>
> I don't know what Hayes says but I'll think about these three  
> features for  health insurance, medicare, Social Security and  
> Pensions in my country... (in fact is not mine, belongs to the  
> richest and the multinationals.... anyhow).
>
> Regards
>
> Alfredo CV
>
>
> health insurance,
> Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and the uninsured
>
>
> Mikhail Gorelkin wrote:
>> +1: I guess that complexity cannot be expressed adequately even in  
>> a term of computability. ? --Mikhail
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>> From: "Mikhail Gorelkin" <gorelkin at hotmail.com>
>> To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group"  
>> <friam at redfish.com>
>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:24 PM
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
>>
>>
>>
>>> Just two thoughts: 1) it seems that complexity is a more  
>>> fundamental category than linearity / non-linearity, which are  
>>> parts of a
>>> sophisticated ***formal*** system; 2) I assume there are types of  
>>> complexity (and, therefore, many - I mean really many - types)
>>> that cannot be expressed in any formal system (beyond linearity /  
>>> non-linearity). Something like G?del's theorem. ? --Mikhail
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
>>> To: <friam at redfish.com>
>>> Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 4:45 PM
>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> Alfredo,
>>>>
>>>> Good question.  In fact, the question of the day, for the Hayes  
>>>> talk.
>>>>
>>>> Mysterious non linear effects in Hayes data leading to the  
>>>> conclusion good
>>>> hearted efforts in one direction lead to the opposite result.
>>>>
>>>> I guess "mysterious non-linearity" is a good clue that the  
>>>> phenomenon is
>>>> complex.
>>>>
>>>> Nick .
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> Message: 1
>>>>> Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:12:09 -0500
>>>>> From: Alfredo CV <agbioinfo at gmx.net>
>>>>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] **today ** Lecture Wed Sep 12 12:30p: Jim  
>>>>> Hayes -
>>>>> Hedging Complex and Chaotic Private Health Insurance Markets  
>>>>> and the
>>>>> Uninsured
>>>>> To: stephen.guerin at redfish.com, The Friday Morning Applied  
>>>>> Complexity
>>>>> Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
>>>>> Message-ID: <46EC1269.7080008 at gmx.net>
>>>>> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Hi
>>>>>
>>>>> Of course it?s impossible to me to know details of the speeches  
>>>>> you
>>>>> usually have. In the distance I suppose that the first purpose  
>>>>> of each
>>>>> one of these speeches is to know and evaluate a broad type of  
>>>>> cases
>>>>> where complexity is used to understand phenomena. I wonder what  
>>>>> makes
>>>>> some phenomena suitable to be studied with a "complex"  
>>>>> approach. What
>>>>> must somebody take in consideration to decide that is studying  
>>>>> a complex
>>>>> phenomena?
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Alfredo CV
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> ============================================================
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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