order and disorder

Posted by Phil Henshaw-2 on
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/order-and-disorder-tp522512p522513.html

Well, what's the phrase?   "All models are wrong" I think it is.   Not
all models are useless, of course.  I guess the models I was talking
about were the ones that compared all knowledge to a two dimensional
image of either random dots or a pattern in which you could see the
shape of a person.  

The latter is clearly simpler because you can ignore some of the dots
and still get the picture.  What's damnably hard to describe in it,
though, is what order it is that makes the image.  That's what I'd call
the 'information' you're looking for.  For that you either need a lot of
'prior knowledge', or to examine the full history of life on earth,
among other things.  It's that difference between data and information
that I often find skipped over.  It's not cut and dried and it seems odd
that 'information theory' always describes it as cut and dried.  Then
when data compacting algorithms, which are a great boon but nothing
more, get used as causal explanations for complex organization in
nature, I think the distinction between our tools and our subjects is
getting lost.

The clue to me is that they compare translating between different
languages to lengths of dots.  To translate good prose from English to
Japanese you have to teach Japanese how to speak English, because the
concepts are different.   It's a real art.  I think information theory
assumes all concepts are the same, and that's probably inaccurate, even
if data density is a fascinating and very important concept.

I'm not sure I see the circular relation you describe, though.  There
are things left out, as you suggest, like not knowing what to call a
pattern without knowing what the pattern is supposed to tell you (i.e.
providing no analysis method whatever but snap judgment). I think that's
what's finessed with using a picture of a person.   Lots of images pop
up without a question.   The image itself doesn't tell you much
actually.  Maybe that's what you mean, that the sweeping generalities
rely on your automatic judgments of the image before you ask where any
judgments would come from?

Jochen is suggesting that it's really the mixture of order and disorder
that's hard to describe.  Of course I don't disagree, mixing things
makes it quite difficult, toward impossible, to separate noise from your
signal, for example.  I think the real issue, though, is how very hard
it is to describe the signal itself.   That's what most of our
information sources seem encumbered with, sketchy data reflecting
complex highly organized things mixed with worse data on other things
that conveys nothing recognizable at all.  We call it 'random' but
that's not where it comes from, just all we can understanding of what it
means.  The actual problem is how to describe the organized stuff.  

I don't think the complexly organized things are often recurrent
patterns in a pervasive disorder, but usually independent and cohesive
real things, pushed into the background behind the appearance of
disorder because the disorder is distracting.   Maybe the reason complex
order is tantalizing is that there is an answer somewhere.   Some will
want to treat the mixed data we get as purely a mathematical analysis
puzzle, but I think of it as a thing-out-there puzzle, which the
analysis can be quite useful for.



Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040                      
tel: [phone]                
e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com          
explorations: www.synapse9.com    

> -----Original Message-----
> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> Sent: Friday, August 25, 2006 3:42 PM
> To: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] order and disorder
>
>
> Phil,
>
> My life time passion concerns the world's love affair with
> circular explanation.  An explanation is circular if the
> terms in which it is identfied are the same terms as those by
> whatever explains it.  The complex-random distinction is one
> of those, isnt it?  I.e.,  we cannot know whether a pattern
> is random or complex until we know exactly how that pattern
> was made.  
>
> I am hoping I am wrong about this.
>
> NIck
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: <friam-request at redfish.com>
> > To: <friam at redfish.com>
> > Date: 8/25/2006 12:00:37 PM
> > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 38, Issue 53
> >
> > Send Friam mailing list submissions to
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> > friam-owner at redfish.com
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> >    1. lecture Wed August 30 - David Stout: 100 Monkey Garden -
> >       Interactive Ecosystem (Stephen Guerin)
> >    2. Is disorder harder to describe than order? (Phil Henshaw)
> >    3. Re: Is disorder harder to describe than order? (Jochen Fromm)
> >
> >
> >
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 17:15:58 -0600
> > From: "Stephen Guerin" <stephen.guerin at redfish.com>
> > Subject: [FRIAM] lecture Wed August 30 - David Stout: 100 Monkey
> > Garden - Interactive Ecosystem
> > To: <friam at redfish.com>, <discuss at nmvis.org>
> > Cc: io at csf.edu
> > Message-ID: <002f01c6c7d3$43f9f780$0202fea9 at hongyu>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > ***  note that this lecture will be hosted at College of
> Santa Fe ***
> >
> > SPEAKER:
> > David Stout, Cory Metcalf and Luke DuBois
> > College of Santa Fe
> >
> > TITLE:
> > 100 Monkey Garden - Interactive Ecosystem
> >
> > LOCATION:
> > MOV-iN Gallery
> > College of Santa Fe
> > 1600 St. Michaels Dr.
> >
> > Located at Moving Image Arts Department
> > (same building as THE SCREEN)
> > map: http://mov-in.org/aboutus.php
> >
> > TIME: Wed, August 30 12:30p
> >
> > Lunch will be available for purchase
> >
> > ABSTRACT:
> > Video/sound artist and moving image arts Professor David Stout will
> > give a personal tour of this highly immersive interactive ecosystem
> > and digital
> art
> > space. Using multiple projectors and computer monitors, as
> well as an
> array of
> > sound and motion sensing devices, David enables the 100 Monkey
> > spectator
> to
> > witness a digitally imagined world creating and recreating
> itself, its
> rules and
> > dimensions. Accompanying art pieces fill the space and
> compliment this
> > particular style of digital art.
> >
> > Check out past incarnations of this piece online:
> > http://nfold.csf.edu/Pages/100MonkeyGarden.htm
> >
> > Other works by David Stout:
> > http://nfold.csf.edu/
> >
> > Santa Fe's THE Magazine review of this installation:
> > http://mov-in.org/Dstout100MonkeyMOV_iN_CDE05-1.pdf
> >
> > BIOS:
> > David Stout is an interactive video-sound artist and one of
> the worlds
> leading
> > laptop performers exploring real-time cross-synthesis of sound and
> > image.
> He
> > is the recipient of the Harvestworks Interactive Technology
> Award and
> > the
> Sun
> > Micro Systems Award for Academic Excellence (2004) and a
> nominee for
> > the
> both
> > the WTN World Technology Award (2003) and the International
> Media Art
> Prize
> > (2004). His work in interactive media includes
> electro-acoustic scores
> for stage
> > and screen, live cinema, video-dance, data-base narrative, noise
> performance and
> > telematic video events that emphasize multi-screen projection as an
> extension of
> > performer, audience and environment. David currently lives
> and works
> > in
> Santa
> > Fe, New Mexico.
> >
> > Cory Metcalf is a moving image and sound artist who lives
> in Santa Fe,
> NM. His
> > work explores the intersection of human performance, real-time media
> systems and
> > responsive installation environments. His interests range from the
> > field
> of
> > bio-mimicry to the practices of aerial theater, extended vocal
> > techniques
> and
> > instrumental noise-music performance. As a seminal member of the
> interactive
> > performance group, i2O, Metcalf developed dynamic diffusion sound
> > designs
> for
> > live acoustics and video performance instruments. Metcalf's
> interest
> > in
> physical
> > computing is evidenced in works such as Sensor Swarm, a hybrid
> > interactive performance-installation that employs sensing
> technology
> > to blur the
> distinction
> > between the audience and performance, fore-grounding the normally
> unconscious
> > influence that humans impose on their environment. Currently Cory is
> working
> > with real-time 3D simulation and complex data feed-back programs to
> > model synthetic-ecologies based on genetic and behavioral processes
> > found in
> living
> > systems.
> >
> > R. Luke DuBois is a composer, programmer, and video artist
> living in
> > New
> York
> > City. He holds a doctorate in music composition from Columbia
> > University,
> and
> > teaches interactive sound and video performance at
> Columbia's Computer
> Music
> > Center and at the Interactive Telecommunications Program at New York
> University.
> > He has done collaborated on interactive performance,
> installation and
> music
> > production work with many artists, most recently Toni Dove, Todd
> > Reynolds, Michael Joaquin Grey, Elliott Sharp, and Michael
> Gordon, and
> > was a staff programming consultant for Engine27 for the
> 2003 season.
> > He is a
> co-author of
> > Jitter, a software suite developed by Cycling'74 for real-time
> manipulation of
> > matrix data. His music (with or without his band, the
> Freight Elevator
> Quartet),
> > is available on Caipirinha/Sire, Cycling'74, and Cantaloupe
> music, and
> > his artwork is represented by Bitforms Gallery in New York City.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Thu, 24 Aug 2006 23:13:54 -0400
> > From: "Phil Henshaw" <sy at synapse9.com>
> > Subject: [FRIAM] Is disorder harder to describe than order?
> > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> > <friam at redfish.com>
> > Message-ID: <00ee01c6c7f4$7fc5b990$2f01a8c0 at SavyII>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1
> >
> >
> > I was reading Yaneer Bar-Yam's construction of systems theory from
> > Shannon's information theory and couldn't help notice that
> I disagree
> > that disorder is harder to describe.  Yes, it's useful to have a
> > theory that helps you design efficient use of bandwidth,
> but maybe that doesn't
> > have to do with the real difference between order and disorder.  
> >
> > A random distribution of data looks to me like a very complicated
> > question with a very simple answer, and a patterned distribution a
> > somewhat simpler question with an impossible answer (at
> least any way
> > we've agreed to describe natural systems so far).   The material
> > evidence is that science has made great progress with the
> former, the
> > phenomena of the world based on random processes, in that
> they can be
> > reliably described.
> >
> > Could it be that there's a flaw in Shannon, or was he maybe talking
> > about data (questions) rather than information (answers)?
> >
> >
> >
> > Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> > NY NY 10040                      
> > tel: [phone]                
> > e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com          
> > explorations: www.synapse9.com    
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:36:11 +0200
> > From: "Jochen Fromm" <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Is disorder harder to describe than order?
> > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> > <friam at redfish.com>
> > Message-ID: <000001c6c821$87f404f0$537a338d at Toshiba>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> >
> > Something is hard to describe if it is complex.
> > Neither pure disorder nor pure order in form of simple
> > regularities is very hard to describe. Complexity is
> > characterized by order in disorder or order in chaos:
> > regularity in irregularity, predictability in
> > unpredictability, and unity in diversity.
> >
> > Murray Gell-Mann argues that the effective complexity
> > for both completely regular and completely random systems
> > is very low, because you cannot find many regularities
> > in the system which can be expressed by a suitable schema,
> > description or rule (see the end of chapter 5 in his book
> > "The Quark and the Jaguar").
> >
> > -J.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Friam mailing list
> > Friam at redfish.com
> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> >
> >
> > End of Friam Digest, Vol 38, Issue 53
> > *************************************
>
>
>
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