Posted by
Nick Thompson on
May 17, 2010; 4:05pm
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/WARNING-Political-Argument-in-Progress-tp5060628p5065784.html
Chris,
Thanks. See my last rather garbled note about the fact that treating
coporate vs government power as a zero-sum game might be a serious thinking
error. We all seem to fear most corporate AND government power. That is a
huge point to agree on. I think that if we can keep that agreement in mind
we can move TOGETHER beyond slogans. But i am not sure how.
n
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (
[hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]
> [Original Message]
> From: Chris Feola <
[hidden email]>
> To: <
[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <
[hidden email]>
> Date: 5/17/2010 9:21:00 AM
> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] WARNING: Political Argument in Progress
>
> Hey Nick,
>
> I'm a libertarian; I hope you don't mind me taking a crack at it.
>
> Most small L libertarians I know (I'm distinguishing us from the
Libertarian
> Party, which is another thing altogether) are deeply cynical people. It's
> not that we believe corporations are good; it's that EVERYONE gets that
> corporations operate on special principles, but many miss that same strain
> in politicians and political parties. In general, people don't root for
> corporations the way they root for politicians -- with the exception of
the
> Apple fan boys, natch.
>
> So here's the thing: it's not so much that libertarians favor corporations
> over government; it's that we fear history has shown over and over that
> corporations USE government to solidify their positions, crush competition
> and prevent innovation.
>
> Note the activities in my old field: media. Do you think it coincidental
> that the major media companies favor laws like that struck down by the
> Supreme Court, which outlaw corporate speech but exempt media companies?
> Notice there is no choice on the table for NO corporate speech, which I
> guess would be your position; the only discussion is which corporations
get
> to speak. Shockingly, The New York Times et al are in favor of a system
> where they get free reign and all those pesky internet startups and
> such...do not.
>
> So that's it, in a nutshell. We don't favor corporations over government.
We
> think that people are rightly suspicious of corporations, and should be
more
> suspicious of government. We oppose as the worst thing the melding of
> corporations and government. And we see little to choose from between Sen.
> Mary Landrieu (D-British Petroleum) and Dick Chaney (R-Haliburton).
>
>
> cjf
>
> Christopher J. Feola
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From:
[hidden email] [mailto:
[hidden email]] On
Behalf
> Of Nicholas Thompson
> Sent: Saturday, May 15, 2010 9:30 PM
> To: Russell Gonnering
> Cc:
[hidden email]
> Subject: [FRIAM] WARNING: Political Argument in Progress
>
> Russ,
>
> It is my deepest belief that if our country is to survived, people who
> disagree need to learn to argue with each other. You and I really
disagree
> on this one, so on my account, we are obligated to argue.
>
> On the other hand, I DON'T believe that others should unwillingly be a
> party to such arguments, so I changed the thread.
>
> We obviously agree that power corrupts and that absolute power corrupts
> absolutely. So, we are both made nervous when power starts to accumulate
> in small numbers of hands And I bet we believe, both, that having power
> leads to the accumulation of more of it. .And, we both seem to agree that
> dangerous, irreversible accumulations of power are occuring in our
society,
> right now?
>
> OK, so far? Where we seem to disagree is where the dangerous power is
> accumulating in our society. I think it is in large corporations; you
> think it is in governments. Still on board?
>
> Why don't I stop there, and see if you agree with this characterization of
> our disagreement.
>
> Nick
>
> Still ok?
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> Clark University (
[hidden email])
>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]
>
>
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: Russell Gonnering <
[hidden email]>
> > To: <
[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> CoffeeGroup <
[hidden email]>
> > Date: 5/15/2010 1:39:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] What you can do.
> >
> > Nick-
> >
> > Why not have both Fox and the BBC? Or more to the point, why not Fox and
> PBS?
> >
> > Fox is not like a government in the following ways: It can't tax me, it
> doesn't redistribute my wealth, it can't imprison me, it can't execute me
> or otherwise control me and I can turn them off. If they do not satisfy
> their viewers and their shareholders, they go out of business. Unless
they
> are "too big to fail", which is a whole other discussion.
> >
> > I have this innate dislike for government censorship, and a very strong
> distrust of politicians.
> >
> > I like the fact that government is limited, and so did the framers of
the
> Constitution. I can see no historical evidence of a political entity,
that
> when granted absolute power over the flow of information to society for an
> unlimited period of time, used that power to increase or even merely
insure
> the liberty of its citizens. Can you? If ever there is a situation of
> giving megaphones to people to yell "Fire" in the theater, it would be
> that.
> >
> > To each his own, I guess.
> >
> > Russ #3
> >
> >
> >
> > Russell Gonnering, MD, MMM, FACS, CPHQ
> >
[hidden email]
> > www.emergenthealth.net
> >
> >
> > On May 15, 2010, at 1:45 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> >
> > > Russ,
> > >
> > > The thing I have never understood is why libertarians do not see
> > > corporations for what they are: HUGE governments.
> > >
> > > Is it really the case that you would rather get your news from Fox
than
> > > from the BBC. It seems to me that the question about whether we are
to
> be
> > > subject to government control is water over the dam. The question is
> only
> > > WHICH government are we going to be controlled by. I would prefer to
be
> > > controlled by the government with the most responsible governance
> > > structure. I am no socialist, but I will take the BBC over Fox ANY
> TIME.
> > >
> > > Gotta Run,
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas S. Thompson
> > > Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> > > Clark University (
[hidden email])
> > >
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> > >
http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]
>
>
>
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