Posted by
Nick Thompson on
May 04, 2010; 9:33pm
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/Behaviorism-tp5003979p5005839.html
glen,
Bunch of interesting issues there. In a rush this afternoon, so wont
"lecture".
Most of the questions you ask are orthogonal to behaviorism/mentalism.
Children are a special case because they cannot give consent. But notice
that the whole question of the Treatment Program you described arises
because the State and The Guardians of the children are at odds as to
whether the treatment is cruelty. So everybody is using behavioral
criteria.
Adults are the more interesting case: is it cruelty when an adult signs on
for it? Is sending a volunteer to war, cruel? Is sending a conscript to
war, cruel? If I ask to have me teeth worked on without anaesthetic, is
the doctor who performs the procedure cruel?
The only place where my behaviorism might have a role to play in such a
discussion is where i would deny to the "victim" the right to disavow his
own pain. I would argue that I have my own responibility to decide
whether a man is in pain, even if he claims he is not, and to make an
ethical decision accordingly.
rushing,
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (
[hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/http://www.cusf.org [City University of Santa Fe]
> [Original Message]
> From: glen e. p. ropella <
[hidden email]>
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
[hidden email]>
> Date: 5/4/2010 3:16:36 PM
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Behaviorism
>
> Nicholas Thompson wrote circa 10-05-04 01:10 PM:
> > Not clear why a behaviorist should stand up for this. Cruelty is
cruelty
> > from the point of view of any theory.
> >
> > Behaviorists didn't invent reward and punishment -- nor it's abuses.
But
> > reading down, if these kids come to them in as bad shape as they appear
to
> > ... constant gruesome self manipulation, etc. ... I can imagine how
> > therapists might get drawn into some pretty dark places.
>
> Right. That was what I wanted clarity on. I'm totally ignorant on what
> constitutes behaviorism (despite the lectures in this forum). And it
> seems to me that the defense the JRC puts forth is believable. I've
> also had more than a few friends who've suffered under chemical
> mistreatment (I stop just before calling it cruelty) by their doctors.
> But I've only had 1 friend who has been treated with electro-shock
> therapy. And he rejected both the chemicals and the shock treatments
> as, again not cruel, but wrong-headed.
>
> Where does a behaviorist draw the line between treatment and
> mistreatment? It's easy to see where a non-behaviorist might draw that
> line, which I think conflates efficacy with empathy. But how does a
> behaviorist draw the line?
>
> I have similar considerations about nursing home facilities and
> Alzheimer's Disease. The sheer unpredictability (indicator for
> complexity) of the AD sufferer's behavior makes me think that the
> behaviorist _must_, at some point, consider higher level constructs like
> cruelty or "mental processes" in order to practically treat a patient.
> (Eric's first option.) If a doctor knows that behavioral treatment like
> shocking an AD patient will never result in, e.g., the dissolution of
> amyloid plaques (i.e. the treatment is really mistreatment), then he
> won't treat the patient that way. But what if the physiology is unknown
> but the treatment seems to work in some cases? Is it "cruel" if it
> works? Or is it just NEVER a question of a higher level mental process
> like "cruelty" at all?
>
> --
> glen e. p. ropella, 971-222-9095,
http://agent-based-modeling.com>
>
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