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Re: Behaviorism [was Beat poet]

Posted by Russ Abbott on May 03, 2010; 5:27pm
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/Beat-poet-defends-the-scientific-method-tp4993619p4999019.html

Thanks for your answers Eric.  I like your answer to Q1 that the unit of observation is at the functional level -- where functional refers to an act that changes the relationship between an entity and its environment.

Since almost every change can be divided into smaller changes, that doesn't really solve the problem. The answer also depends on the ability to characterize what an entity is. But for now, I'm satisfied.

With regard to the issue of reinforcement, I'm not so willing to go along.  You said,

X is a reinforcer if behavior Y increases in future frequency when it is followed by X.

The problem I have with it is that it doesn't tell me why X is a reinforcer of Y.  It makes the being-a-reinforcer-of a primitive relation. As you said,

In that sense, "reinforcer" is a description of the effect, not an explanation for the effect.

Do you really want to leave it at that? Science is definitely happy to come up with empirically establishable relationships. But it never stops there. I always attempts to ask why that relationship holds. Are you really saying that behaviorists refuse to ask that question?

For example, consider the implications of the fact that the reinforcer occurs after the thing being reinforced? How can that possibly be? It seems to imply that the entity being reinforced has a mechanism that enables it to relate the reinforcement to the action being reinforced. Otherwise how could the reinforcement have any effect at all since it follows the act being reinforced. So right there one seems to be postulating some sort of internal mechanisms that are both (a) able to remember (understood loosely and not necessarily conceptually) the act that was done so that the subsequent reinforcement can be related to it as well as (b) change the frequency or conditions under which that act is performed. One should presumably then ask how those internal mechanisms work.


-- Russ


On Mon, May 3, 2010 at 6:27 AM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:
Russ,
Good questions. These are indeed "obvious vulnerabilities" that behaviorists are familiar with. Of course, if I just said what I thought, then the answers would seem more solid, but I will try to give a flavor of the broader reality of the field, not just my opinion.

Your Q1: How big (or small) is a behavior? -- This is a major historic difference between different people's behaviorisms (a phrasing I assume is equivalent to saying that X is a major historic difference between different people's versions of quantum theory). Watson, for example, the sort-of founder of behaviorism, really wanted to talk about things like the flexing or not flexing of individual muscles. This was criticized, even by most behaviorists, as "muscle twitchism", though a few still like it. The modern analysis, following from Skinner, uses the "operant" as the level of analysis. An operant is, roughly, a set of movements that do something, like "press a lever". The justification of this level of analysis is largely that regularity seems to appear at that level. We can predict and control the rate of lever pressing. In fact, as will appeal to the complexity crowd, we can predict and control the rate of level pressing even when there is quite extensive variation in the underlying muscle movements! I guess it is a bit of a pragmatist thing - you do science where you see that science can be done.

Your Q1b: What about conceptual stuff? -- It is just another thing about behavior. How do you know when someone else understands a concept? You get them to behave in certain ways. How do you know when you understand a concept? You get yourself to behave in certain ways. We can quibble about exactly what ways, but ultimately typing the word "right" is no different than any other five-part behavior, and so your typing 'h' is, presumably, not qualitatively different than a rat pressing a bar labeled "h" if I have reinforced it in the past for pressing the pattern "r" "i" "g" "h" "t". Pigeons can tell the difference between different cubists, between early and late Picasso, between pictures with people in them and pictures without people in them (famously, sometimes better than the experimenter who selected the slides), etc. So, to the extent that 'cubist' vs. 'impressionist' is a concept, behaviorists can explain how people get concepts perfectly well.

Your Q2: How do you define reinforcement? -- Again, there are several methods. The biggest problem is that it is easy to slip into circularity. Skinner's solution is the most popular today, and has certain virtues over the alternative. Skinner wants to define reinforces by their effects. X is a reinforcer if behavior Y increases in future frequency when it is followed by X. In that sense, "reinforcer" is a description of the effect, not an explanation for the effect. Thus, in applied behavior analysis, it is common to be stuck trying to fix a problem behavior you know nothing about the origin of. In a "functional analysis" you would try removing consequences of that behavior one at a time until you identified the factor(s) that reinforced the behavior. Thus the reinforcer is identified empirically, rather than theoretically. -- to appeal to physics again, Einstein would tell us that gravity is not some separate thing that causes objects in a falling elevator to converge, gravity is simply the observable fact that objects a falling elevator converge.

Your Q2b: How do you distinguish Organism from Environment -- This question can get very deep very fast in ambiguous cases. Let's face it though, most cases are not very ambiguous. When I am studying a rat in a Skinner Box: The organism that fleshy and bony thing that I pick up out of its cage and walk over to the Skinner box. The Environment is the inside of a Skinner box. Most cases we deal with on a practical basis are similarly well defined. I don't need a verbal self-report by the rat to know that food reinforces its lever presses. I similarly do not need at any point to look inside the rat. The question of whether or not food reinforces lever presses (under such and such conditions) is a simple and straightforward scientific question about behavior.

Keep um coming if you got more, this is fun,

Eric



On Sun, May 2, 2010 10:44 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:
I have two problems with it.
  1. Turning left may happen to be a low level aspect of some more significant action. For example, I suspect it would be difficult to say why I am about to move my right index finger to the left and then down. (It had to do with the letter "h", which I was striking because it was in the word "right", which I was typing because ... . Not only that, I knew that striking the letter "h" would include it in the message I was constructing ... . How can you be behaviorist about things that are that conceptual?)
  2. More important (or at least equally important), all those explanations seem to depend on the notion of reward or reinforcement. How is reward/reinforcement defined within a behaviorist framework? I can't immediately think of a way to talk about what reward or reinforcement means without going "inside" the subject.
Both of these would seem like obvious vulnerabilities in behaviorist thinking. They must have been raised many times. Behaviorists must have answers.  It's hard for me to imagine what they are.

-- Russ




On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 7:08 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <epc2@...> wrote:
Russ,
The behaviorist's point, first and foremost, would involve comparing the questions "Why did he choose to turn left?" with the question "Why did he turn left?" They are the same question, the behaviorist claims, except perhaps, at best, that the first question does a little bit more to specify a reference group of alternative circumstances and behaviors that our explanation needs to distinguish between. For example, we might read it as saying "Why did he turn left under circumstances in which other people turn right?"

As for the acceptable answer to such a question... well... there are several varieties of behaviorism, and the acceptable answers would vary. The stereotypical villain of Intro Psych stories is a behaviorist who insists on explanations only in terms of immediate stimuli. However, those are mostly mythical creatures. Most behaviorists have a bias towards developmental explanations, and as members of this list will readily recognize, behavioral development is complex. The most standard forms of behaviorism make heavy use of drooling dogs and lever-pressing rats as their primary metaphors. In this case we might prefer a maze-running rat. Upon his first encounter with choice point C, which has vertical stripes, rat 152 turns left. Why? Because, in the past, this rat has been reinforced (i.e., got to the peanut butter faster) when it turned left (the critical behavior) at intersections that have vertical stripes (a discriminative stimuli). The nature of the contingencies and stimuli can be quite complex, but we have lots of data about how those complexities reliably produce certain patterns of behavior. Similarly, we might argue that the person turns left because in his past, under circumstances such as these, he has been reinforced for turning left. What circumstances, well, I would have to elaborate the example a lot more: When following directions which state "turn left at the next light" and at "an intersection with a light". The individual's choice is thus explained by his long-term membership in a verbal community that rewards people for doing certain things (turning left) under certain conditions consisting of a combination of discriminative stimuli (which are complex, but clearly possible to define in sufficient detail for these purposes). This training started very young, for my daughter it formally started at about 1 and a half with my saying "look right, look left, look right again" at street corners.

-- Admitted, the above explanation for the person's behavior is a bit hand-wavy and post-hoc, but the explanations for the rat's behavior is neither. Behaviorism, loosely speaking consists of two parts, a philosophy of behaviorism and an application of behaviorism (applied behavior analysis). We could take our person, subject him to empirical study, and determine the conditions under which he turns left. This would reveal the critical variables making up a circumstance under which such turns happen. The science also allows us to determine some aspects of the past-history based on the subjects present responses. Further, just as we built our rat, we could build a person who would turn left under such circumstances, and for that person, all the conditions would be known and no hand-waving or further investigation would be necessary. The fact that we usually cannot perform these kinds of investigation, is no excuse for pretending we wouldn't get concrete results if we did. --

In the absence of an observed past history, the behaviorist would rather speculate about concrete past events than about imaginary happenings in a dualistic other-realm.

Personally, I think many behaviorists overdo the role of conditioning. I have a bias for a more inclusive view of development, such as that advanced by the epigeneticists of the 60's and 70's, the kind that leads directly into modern dynamic systems work. Those behaviorists I most like recognize the limitations of conditioning as an explanation, but argue that conditioning is particularly important in the development of many behaviors that humans particularly care about. Pairing the verbal command "left" with the contingency of reinforcement for turning left, they argue, is just as arbitrary pairing the visual stimuli "red light" with the contingency of reinforcement for pressing the left lever in the skinner box. A reasonable position, but I've never been completely sold. I will admit though that conditioning is important in unexpected places - you cannot even explain why baby geese follow the object they imprint on without operant (skinner-box style) conditioning.

How was that?

Eric

P.S. Returning to Robert's query: It should be obvious that the above explanation, if accepted as an explanation for the behavior, is also an explanation for all concurrent neural happenings.


On Sun, May 2, 2010 07:34 PM, Russ Abbott <russ.abbott@...> wrote:
Eric, Can you provide an example of an acceptable behaviorist answer to your question about why a person turned left instead of right. By example, I'm looking for something more concrete than "the explanation for the choice must reference conditions in our protagonists past that built him into the type of person who would turn left under the current conditions." What might such an explanation look like?


-- Russ Abbott
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 Professor, Computer Science
 California State University, Los Angeles

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On Sun, May 2, 2010 at 4:03 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <epc2@...> wrote:
Robert,
You accuse Nick of talking about "the brain", when he was talking about "the mind".

The most basic tenant of behaviorism is that all questions about the mind are ultimately a question about behavior. Thus, while some behaviorists deny the existence of mental things, that is not a necessary part of behaviorism. On the other hand, the behaviorist must deny that the mind is made up any special substance, and they must deny that the mental things are somehow inside the person (hence the comparison with soul, auras, etc.). If the behaviorist does not deny tout court that mental things happen, what is he to do? One option is to claim that mental things are behavioral things, analyzed at some higher level of analysis, just as biological things are chemical things analyzed at some higher level of analysis. So, to answer your question: There IS a brain, and the brain does all sorts of things, but it does not do mental things. Mental things happen, but they do not happen "in the brain". As Skinner would put it, the question is: What DOES go on in the skull, and what is an intelligible way to talk about it? The obvious answer is that the only things going on in the skull are physiological.

For example, if one asks why someone chose to go left instead of right at a stop sign, one might get an answer in terms of the brain: "He turned left because his frontal cortex activated in such and such a way." However, that is no answer at all, because the firing of those neurons is a component part of the turning left! Ultimately, the explanation for the choice must reference conditions in our protagonists past that built him into the type of person who would turn left under the current conditions. In doing so, our explanation will necessarily give the conditions that lead to a person whose brain activates in such and such a way under the conditions in question.

Put another way: To say that he chose to turn left because a part of his brain chose to turn left misses the point. It anthromorphizes your innards in a weird way, suggests homunculi, and introduces all sorts of other ugly problems. Further, it takes the quite tractable problem of understanding the origins of behavior and transforms it into the still intractable problem of understanding the origins of organization in the nervous system. Neuroscience is a great field of study, and it is thriving. Thus, people hold out hope that one day we will know enough about nerve growth, etc., that the origin of neuronal organization will become tractable. One day they will, but when that day comes it will not tell us much about behavior that we didn't already know, hence they won't tell us much about the mind we didn't already know.

Or at least, so sayith some behaviorists,

Eric



On Sun, May 2, 2010 05:09 PM, "Robert J. Cordingley" <robert@...> wrote:
Nick
Let me try this on(e)... it's because the brain is the physical structure within which our thinking processes occur and collectively those processes we call the 'mind'.  I don't see a way to say the same thing or anything remotely parallel, about soul, aura, the Great Unknown and such.  Is there an argument to say that the brain, or the thinking processes don't exist in the same way we can argue that the others don't (or might not)?
Thanks
Robert

On 5/2/10 12:52 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
</snipped>
 
How is banging on about mind any different from banging on about soul, or aura, or the Great Unknown?
 
Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601



Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601




============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org