Posted by
David Eric Smith on
Oct 12, 2009; 7:13pm
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/A-question-for-the-emergentists-among-you-tp3799888p3810016.html
Hi Nick,
Actually, all the recent work on fights and triads is done on pigtail
macaques. The earlier work on subordination signals in relation to
the accumulation to form power structures was done -- I think --
mostly on pigtails, with perhaps stumptails and rhesus compared
because they form differently structured power groups. I don't know
whether any of the work on fights has been extended to other species
within the genus besides the pigtails, or whether there are plans to
do so. These researchers actually like macaques as a study system
because there are -- again, I think -- 13 species in the genus, and
although they have recognizable similarities, there are different
behavioral tendencies that look modest when viewed at the individual
level, but which ramify to very different social structures,
characteristic roles, and patterns of violence, recovery from
violence, and group coherence as a result of it all. My sense from
listening to talks, but not having made an adequate effort to cover
even the most superficial review papers, is that the chimps in their
coalition structures are enough more complicated than the monkeys
that it is not clear even whether the same data would be sufficient
for a trustworthy analysis. But now we are far out of my depth or
knowledge.
Take care,
Eric
On Oct 12, 2009, at 12:50 PM, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> Thanks, Eric.
>
> I will be interested to see if this higher order patterning exists for
> monkeys as well as apes.
>
> N
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> Clark University (
[hidden email])
>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
>
>
>
>> [Original Message]
>> From: Eric Smith <
[hidden email]>
>> To: <
[hidden email]>; The Friday Morning Applied
>> Complexity
> Coffee Group <
[hidden email]>
>> Date: 10/12/2009 8:58:45 AM
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A question for the emergentists among you
>>
>> Nick, hi,
>>
>> I can't really summon the energy to be part of the emergence thread,
>> but for this particular post, you may wish to keep an eye on
>> publications coming out from Flack, deWaal, Krakauer, and
>> collaborators including Ay and deDeo, on primate interactions. They
>> have some very strong analysis showing that a very large component of
>> group power structure and the functions associated with it, such as
>> policing, is mediated by the response of individuals to dyadic
>> interactions between others, and very explicitly _not_ to merely the
>> members who participate in the dyads. They have tested a variety of
>> p-to-q responses, and find a very strongly significant signal in the
>> 1-to-2 response (i.e. individual responds to dyad), with higher-order
>> interactions apparently well explained by the composition of 1-to-2,
>> and an equally strong absence of signal for any of the other
>> elementary levels, or for any single strong explanatory excess of any
>> higher-order p-to-q above its dependence on the 1-to-2.
>>
>> What I have said here is an oversimplification of a longer and more
>> complicated story involving several forms of interactions (fights,
>> subordination signals, etc.) with inter-related but distinct dynamics
>> and timescales, so I haven't done most of it justice. I don't know
>> how much of the new 1-to-2 work is currently published or on the SFI
>> working paper list. Some of the earlier papers explaining what
>> quantitative definitions they attach to the notion of power, and its
>> relation to policing and other group-coherence attributes, is out in
>> Nature and several behavior journals, and probably mostly available
>> from the authors' webpages. All of this work is in various stages of
>> development, write-up, or submission, and some of it may be presented
>> in talks as the year wears out. So one way or another it should be
>> available either now or soon.
>>
>> Just a topic of interest as a bit of science.
>>
>> All best, and I do find much of the larger argument interesting and
>> thoughtful,
>>
>> Eric
>
>
>
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