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Re: A question for the emergentists among you

Posted by Eric Charles on Oct 12, 2009; 1:32am
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/A-question-for-the-emergentists-among-you-tp3799888p3805660.html

Robert,
(Building a bit off of Roger and Owen...)  Not to be trite, but the answer is obviously that different people have different reasons for wanting to discuss "emergence". Some of the reasons would match your criterion for usefulness, others wouldn't. One reason for doing this, that receives right criticism on this list, is a sort of pure nominalism - "we just want to name things so we can pretend we understand them". Only a slight step away from this is a desire to define and name the thing and then stop (with no pretense of understanding). I don't think anyone on this list is doing either of those things, but there seems to be a lot of suspicion that some (or all) might be. Other goals may be deemed more laudatory depending on your disposition.

That said, I suspect few have a goal as concrete in its usefulness as what you are looking for. I suspect that most people's goals can be divided into two kinds:

1) Those who wish to define "emergence" because they suspect we will be able to determine which of those things we care about are emergent and which are not. These people presume that a good definition will allow us to continue as usual with most things we care about, while identifying better ways to analyze and discuss those few things that are emergent. That is, we will know from the start that certain ways of treating those things (mathematically, scientifically, metaphorically, etc.) will be insufficient, and we might even be able to identify ways of treating those things that are acceptable for all emergent phenomenon. Think of this maybe like the legal distinction between a tort and or a crime... it's nice to know which you are accusing something of, because the best way to proceed differs by type. This is very useful to know, even if you don't have in mind yet any particular things you are accusing someone of.

2) Those who wish to define "emergence" because they suspect we will find that everything we care about is emergent. That is, there are people who suspect that our ways of analyzing most everything is too simplistic and based on false assumptions, and that we globally need more sophisticated ways to discuss and analyze topics of interest. The situations I am most familiar with that are in dire need of revision are simplistic notions about perception, cognition, and development. The ideas that you can reasonably talk about "genes for" single phenotypes, that perception can be reduced to sensation, or that cognition can be separated from physiological processes on the one hand and social processes on the other, are all surely silly. I can't think of a good metaphor for this one, sorry.

Certainly there are people on the list with other goals (at the least, more specific goals), but hopefully will be a satisfactory answer to your question nonetheless.

Eric


On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 09:58 AM, Robert Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:

What's the point of determining whether a phenomenon is emergent or not? What useful stuff can I actually do with that knowledge?


In other areas of my life, classification can have actionable consequences. For example, I can use the sophisticated pattern-matching algorithms and heuristics embedded in my brain to work out that the three animals wandering through my house can be categorized as "cats" and not "dogs". And that is useful, because it tells me that I should buy cat food and not dog food when I go to PetCo.

So what is an equivalent example with emergence? Once I've attached the "emergent" label to a phenomenon, then what?

-- Robert
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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org