Re: emergence
Posted by
Russ Abbott on
Sep 07, 2009; 12:30am
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/emergence-tp3586728p3594734.html
David Wolpert has actually proposed such a
measure. But I don't think it has much if anything to do with emergence.
-- Russ
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 4:56 PM, Robert Cordingley
<[hidden email]> wrote:
After observing all the tos and fros, and listening to many in person
discussions on emergence and complexity, I've decided (see No. 4),
Emergence is in the eye of the beholder. This will continue until
someone declares a definition that can be widely adopted by workers in
the field. Look at the
Reynolds Number
that is a dimensionless but useful engineering tool to determine the
type of fluid flow, whether it's laminar or turbulent and helps
determine how to calculate pipeline pressure drops and such. Or look
at
Fractal
Dimension, that is a statistical quantity, and I believe is another
dimensionless quantity, in fact.
Is is possible that there is a measure of Complexity that can be used
in the same sort of way? As this measure of Complexity increases
Emergence happens (like turbulence) above a certain value? And it is
so because we say so.
Robert C.
Russ Abbott wrote:
<snipped>
4. Is emergence an objective feature of the world, or is it merely in
the eye of the beholder? ...
<snipped>
-- Russ
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 1:13 PM, Nicholas
Thompson
<[hidden email]>
wrote:
"seems" would seem to be
the operative word. He is the editor of the book and he has to
represent the range of opinion and SOME people think its mysterious.
but i have to go buy fish.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
9/6/2009 11:57:48 AM
Subject:
Re: [FRIAM] emergence
If you make properties rather than entities
emergent, what do you say about entities? What are they? Where do they
come from? Put another way, what is a property a property of?
I think you will find that Bedau and Humphreys find emergence
mysterious. This is the second sentence from the Introduction. "The topic of emergence is
fascinating and controversial in part because emergence seems to be
widespread and yet the very idea of emergence seems opaque, and perhaps
even incoherent." The rest of the Introduction expands on the mystery
of emergence.
-- Russ
On Sun, Sep 6, 2009 at 10:18 AM,
Nicholas Thompson
<[hidden email]>
wrote:
Try this: a property of an entity is emergent when it
depends on the arrangment or the order of presentation of the parts of
the entity. (It's properties that are emergent, not entities
... some properties of a pile of sand are emergent, some aggregate.)
Here, I believe, I am channeling Wimsatt.
The beauty of reading a collection such as Bedau and The
Other Guy is that you experience the whip-lash of moving from point of
view to point of view. Good exercise for the neck.
By the way, Russ (was it?) was a ...leetle... unfair to
Bedau. I dont think Bedau thinks it's a mystery; i think he thinks
others have thought it a mystery. But it's been a few months since I
read it.
Implementation: Consider the expression, "there is more
than one way to skin a cat". Equivalent to: "there are several
programs you can use to implement a cat skinning."
Consciousness: the big source of confusion in emergence
discussions is the attempt to attach emergence to such perennial
mysteries as consciousness. (Actually, I dont think consciousness is a
mystery, but let that go.) The strength of a triangle is an emergent
property of the arrangment of its legs and their attachments. There
are lots of ways bang together boards and still have a weak
construction, which I learned when I put together a grape arbor with no
diagonal members. Worked fine until the grapes grew on it. Emergent
properties are everywhere in the simplest of constructions. We dont
need to talk about soul, or consciouness, or spirit to have a useful
conversation about emergence.
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
-----
Original Message -----
Sent:
9/6/2009 10:32:59 AM
Subject:
Re: [FRIAM] emergence
Consciousness / self-awareness?
Is this thus acceptable as an emergent phenomenon?
If so, how does this permit, or not, the definition of
'the self' as a unique identity?
Emergence
is what happens when components of the "emergent entity" act in such a
way as to bring about the existence and persistence of that entity.
When "boids" follow their local flying rules, they create (implement) a
flock. It's not mysterious. We know how it works.
That's all emergence is: coordinated or consistent actions among a
number of elements that result in the formation and persistence of some
aggregate entity or phenomenon.
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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at
http://www.friam.org
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at
http://www.friam.org