Posted by
Steve Smith on
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/Re-Subjective-experience-tp3084143p3087290.html
Russ Abbott wrote:
Again you didn't answer the question.
"Feel" has multiple meanings, only one of which has to do
with palpating.
I feel for you Russ. I share your frustration with Nick's responses,
yet I'm pretty sure he is trying to get at something completely
different which might be why he is being so difficult about these
questions...
Furthermore "feel" as referring to a subjective state is
no more a metaphor than any other language.If, when you get stuck for a
reply you retreat to calling language a metaphor, you will never deal
with the issue. All referential language is metaphor: "an expression
used to refer to something that it does not literally denote." where
"denote" means "to be a sign or indication of." All referential
language is intentional. It is never the thing to which it refers. Some
language, such as exclamations, e.g., of joy, pain, etc. are often an
aspect of the thing itself. But this is a tangent. I want you to deal
with the issue of experience.
I suspect that all language is
figurative. Many of our
intellectualizations
are based on understanding by analogy and
therefore rooted in
metaphor (did I just say "based on"? and
then "rooted"? - *what* must I be talking "about"? Can't I just be
"direct" and quit "beating around the bush" and using "oblique" and
"tangential" references to things?).
I do suspect Nick might have been dipping into his
Metaphorazine...
fortunately he's stayed out of his stash of
Onamatopiates (so
far) and you don't want to be there when he jacks up on
Alliterene
and
Hyberbolehyde! Did he say he was just off to the Docs' for
a fresh set of scrips?
Metaphorazine
by
jeff noon
Johnny takes Metaphorazine. Every clockwork day. Says it burns his
house down, with a haircut made of wings. You could say he eats a
problem. You could say he stokes his thrill. Every clingfilm evening,
climb inside a little pill. Intoxicate the feelings. Play those
skull-piano blues.
Johnny takes Metaphorazine.
He's a dog.
For the full poem, click the link above.
I doubt that I can add any clarity with my own stirring here, but I
feel compelled. Or perhaps there is an observation of compellingness
which is uniquely situated in the metaphorical location which does not
change when movement happens. This reminds me (way too much) of the
implications (I think) of
David Bohm's
Rheomode.
I sometimes suspect that David Bohm drank
Simileum like
Absynthe. Or perhaps it is just an occupational hazard of trying to
understand and explain Quantum Theory.
I believe that Nick's point is that among those who experience "I"ness
(the experience of being in the first person?), that this is really the
experience of observing from a unique perspective. That
qualitatively, whatever observers might exist, they are inherently 3rd
person, observing a world. What "we" (those illusory beings who feel
first-personish) observe when we think we are observing ourselves is
really an illusion or a consequence of the uniqueness of that
observation being embodied, and nothing more (as if that is not
enough?). This is a subtle thing, and I'm not sure I really get it,
but I do feel that I have a hint of what he is trying to describe.
I'm not sure that the question of whether Robots (or computers, or
smart phones, or hand-calculators, or abacii, or quipu) have
experiences is relevant to this topic. That might be partially why
Nick keeps ignoring it. I think it is nevertheless an interesting
(and important?) question, but I think it is not germane to the point
he is making.
I suppose Nick could speak for himself, but I'm having such a grand
time trying him on (after an extra heavy dose of
Metaphorazine)
that I can't help it!
Woof Woof, Squeek Squeek, Chirp Chirp, Blah Blah,
- Sieve
PS. Yes, I am perhaps, having waaay too much fun!
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