Posted by
Nick Thompson on
May 31, 2009; 4:22pm
URL: http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/Re-Turtles-with-trousers-WAS-robots-forming-etc-tp3002381.html
John, and others...
Open, indeed! Thanks for your concise statement of the problem.
My deep suspicion is that the robots are smoke and mirrors. That if one
needs spatial arrangements to make the model go ... as we began to suspect
that spatial arrangements might enhance our "MOTH" model of social
evolution ... than one need only write that into the net logo model. That
NOTHING is gained by building the robot except robot building experience
and .... crucially ... public relations appeal.
The robots, of course, are "just" models, too. They are models with more
"surplus meaning" than their net-logo equivalents: i.e., with the robots,
there is a much greater chance that one has unconsciously built in stuff
that affects the outcome but really is not very interesting.
The reason that I raise all of this is that it seems to relate to the
little dust-up that we had vis-a-vis epstein a few months back. What are
models for? What does "verisimilitude" do for a model? Do we put skirts,
trousers, and hats on our turtles or is it better not to? And WHEN is a
robot something more than a turtle with trousers. I assume that people on
this list have firm opinions on this subject.
Best,
Nick
Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
Clark University (
[hidden email])
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/> [Original Message]
> From: John Kennison <
[hidden email]>
> To:
[hidden email] <
[hidden email]>; The
FridayMorning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
[hidden email]>
> Cc:
[hidden email] <
[hidden email]>
> Date: 5/31/2009 8:42:27 AM
> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] Robots forming human-like societies -
electronicevolution? // Current
>
>
>
> Nick,
>
> It seems to me that a negotiating model assumes that the robots have an
agreed upon method of communication, which includes transmitting of offers.
Also, it is assumed that we have a model of each robot's position, which
might be simplified to something like 'the robot moves to the place where
another robot suggested there was food'. As I read this article, the robots
have lights and light-sensors, an ability to physically move and to switch
lights off and on, and a program which determines how it does these things.
So methods of communication must evolve and decisions such as 'move to
where another robot indicated food' must be expressed as specific physical
motions.
>
> Two questions arise: Does the resulting evolution of the physical robots
reflect anything that would be suggested by examining models of negotiating
strategies. The answer seems to be yes, very much so. The other question is
whether all of the behavior exhibited by robots is predictable by such
models. Or is it the case that the physical set up has possibilities that
we would almost certainly overlook no matter how we tried to define some
negotiating entities. This still seems to be open.
>
> ---John
>
> ________________________________________
> From:
[hidden email] [
[hidden email]] On Behalf Of
Nicholas Thompson [
[hidden email]]
> Sent: Sunday, May 31, 2009 2:53 AM
> To:
[hidden email]
> Cc:
[hidden email]
> Subject: [FRIAM] Robots forming human-like societies - electronic
evolution? // Current
>
> Dear All,
>
> I guess my naive question here is, Were the robots, as such, necessary.
Is there anything you can do with robots that you can't do with netlogo
.... well, except have the scratch your back, or something. Anything of
THEORETICAL significance?
>
>
http://current.com/items/90119924_robots-forming-human-like-societies-electronic-evolution.htm
>
>
> Nicholas S. Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Ethology,
> Clark University (
[hidden email]<mailto:
[hidden email]>)
>
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/>
>
>
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at
http://www.friam.org