Friam

tangent from uncanny valley

Classic

List

Threaded

14 messages Options

Prof David West

tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

Most of the human genome doesn't express as proteins, so there should be lots of room to store stuff.
Such technology is hardly science fiction, it's even FDA approved!

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-novel-gene-therapy-treat-patients-rare-form-inherited-vision-loss

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 2:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

thompnickson2

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Well, hang on, Dave.

DNA is not just code; it is structure as well.

N

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 4:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This
article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an
interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA.
After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal
to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

Buy a machine to do it.

https://www.evonetix.com/our-platform/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 9:51 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

Well, hang on, Dave.

DNA is not just code; it is structure as well.

N

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 4:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA.
After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Prof David West

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

The structure is just the "machinery" that executes the code.

The original work was encoding data on synthetic DNA and the result was a structure that was the data that was the structure. The new work is altering an existing structure - binary data converted to 4 bases - again with a result that data is structure is data.

[or so I am led to believe by what I have been reading]

davew

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, at 10:50 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Well, hang on, Dave.
>
> DNA is not just code; it is structure as well.
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
> [hidden email]
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 4:43 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley
>
> The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This
> article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an
> interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA.
> After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal
> to genetic (re)engineering.
>
> davew
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

An analogy there would be punch cards. The machinery is the ribosome.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, January 23, 2021 10:48 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The structure is just the "machinery" that executes the code.

The original work was encoding data on synthetic DNA and the result was a structure that was the data that was the structure. The new work is altering an existing structure - binary data converted to 4 bases - again with a result that data is structure is data.

[or so I am led to believe by what I have been reading]

davew

On Sat, Jan 23, 2021, at 10:50 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

> Well, hang on, Dave.
>
> DNA is not just code; it is structure as well.
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
> [hidden email]
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
> Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 4:43 PM
> To: [hidden email]
> Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley
>
> The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This
> article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an
> interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA.
> After all a program is just another form of data. This might be
> orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.
>
> davew
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn
> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
>
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn
> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Barry MacKichan

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

There used to be a lot of talk about “junk DNA” which doesn’t do anything, but I’ve gotten the impression (sorry, I can’t give references) that more recently the “junk DNA” does play a role.

Also, adjacency or propinquity of genes on a chromosome affects evolution (if I get one of the genes from a parent, I’m highly likely to get the other also). I have no idea if it plays a role during the life of a cell. I don’t know anything about how sexual reproduction goes about building a new chromosome by selecting pieces from the chromosomes of the parents, but on the face of it, changing the layout (or in mathematical terms, the metric) could lead to omission or duplication errors in the result.

TL;DR Be careful what you wish for.

—Barry

On 22 Jan 2021, at 18:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Most of the human genome doesn't express as proteins, so there should be lots of room to store stuff.
Such technology is hardly science fiction, it's even FDA approved!

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-novel-gene-therapy-treat-patients-rare-form-inherited-vision-loss

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 2:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

I think a lot of that could be sorted out from population-based statistical inference from whole genome sequencing and large biobanks.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Barry MacKichan
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 8:09 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

TL;DR Be careful what you wish for.

—Barry

On 22 Jan 2021, at 18:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Most of the human genome doesn't express as proteins, so there should be lots of room to store stuff.
Such technology is hardly science fiction, it's even FDA approved!

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-novel-gene-therapy-treat-patients-rare-form-inherited-vision-loss

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 2:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Barry MacKichan

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

Hmmmmm…… ok

On 25 Jan 2021, at 11:59, Marcus Daniels wrote:

I think a lot of that could be sorted out from population-based statistical inference from whole genome sequencing and large biobanks.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Barry MacKichan
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 8:09 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

There used to be a lot of talk about “junk DNA” which doesn’t do anything, but I’ve gotten the impression (sorry, I can’t give references) that more recently the “junk DNA” does play a role.

Also, adjacency or propinquity of genes on a chromosome affects evolution (if I get one of the genes from a parent, I’m highly likely to get the other also). I have no idea if it plays a role during the life of a cell. I don’t know anything about how sexual reproduction goes about building a new chromosome by selecting pieces from the chromosomes of the parents, but on the face of it, changing the layout (or in mathematical terms, the metric) could lead to omission or duplication errors in the result.

TL;DR Be careful what you wish for.

—Barry

On 22 Jan 2021, at 18:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Most of the human genome doesn't express as proteins, so there should be lots of room to store stuff.
Such technology is hardly science fiction, it's even FDA approved!

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-novel-gene-therapy-treat-patients-rare-form-inherited-vision-loss

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 2:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

David Eric Smith

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

In reply to this post by Barry MacKichan

It’s good that Marcus said specifically “doesn’t express as proteins”, because that can capture both the small fraction that does, and the fact that indeed, the word “junk” is now rather characteristically embarrassing. At the least, we have small regulatory RNAs of several kinds (I am not a specialist in this), and probably elaborate regions for the control of gene expression modulated by many transcription factors. I feel sure that somewhere I have seen a paper with a graph to the effect that the number of regulatory (SOMETHING: what? sites? protein-protein interactions?) grows quadratically in the number of protein-coding exons. I know Peter Stadler in Leipzig has worked in this area a lot, but I have asked, and that paper is not by him.

I believe I have also seen that spatial proximity in the nucleus is relevant to regulation of rates and coordination of gene expression. Proximity in space may come from proximity in a chromosomal sequence, but can also be non-local on the chromosome. Erez Lieberman, perhaps 15 years ago or longer, when he was working at Martin Nowak’s Program for Evolutionary Dynamics at Harvard, was using new imaging methods to identify what the proximity arrangements were for transcribed regions, to conclude that they were reproducible, and then to work toward how that was being controlled when they were not necessarily contiguous in sequence.

Eric

On Jan 25, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

There used to be a lot of talk about “junk DNA” which doesn’t do anything, but I’ve gotten the impression (sorry, I can’t give references) that more recently the “junk DNA” does play a role.
Also, adjacency or propinquity of genes on a chromosome affects evolution (if I get one of the genes from a parent, I’m highly likely to get the other also). I have no idea if it plays a role during the life of a cell. I don’t know anything about how sexual reproduction goes about building a new chromosome by selecting pieces from the chromosomes of the parents, but on the face of it, changing the layout (or in mathematical terms, the metric) could lead to omission or duplication errors in the result.
TL;DR Be careful what you wish for.
—Barry

On 22 Jan 2021, at 18:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Most of the human genome doesn't express as proteins, so there should be lots of room to store stuff.
Such technology is hardly science fiction, it's even FDA approved!

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-novel-gene-therapy-treat-patients-rare-form-inherited-vision-loss

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 2:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ZBnvzzf17o8ol-66dBuDo8bTzQU-jFB9dZtS2SvGA5OXPgS5gD-g-Ub8Qb5VBJHiGQ64OwZdN9s6n02B35k8_UQc5DP-lWleJxA0HG83aky2JsFIkQ,,&typo=1
FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,731pFgyYVhCAF2OTZ98g4GA1HQlZtZ6CQLmmbMC8Bt02Tfm0aosSdLe9xv3LwF8h6G9QHU1fCBpJQwjbmtpioRuUFJpCHSqmmqa2FOerSQ,,&typo=1
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

If for some reason one wanted to find a place to hide something, HERV sections would be one idea.

https://blogs.biomedcentral.com/on-biology/2019/01/25/viral-content-human-genomes-variable-thought/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 9:20 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

Eric

On Jan 25, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

There used to be a lot of talk about “junk DNA” which doesn’t do anything, but I’ve gotten the impression (sorry, I can’t give references) that more recently the “junk DNA” does play a role.

Also, adjacency or propinquity of genes on a chromosome affects evolution (if I get one of the genes from a parent, I’m highly likely to get the other also). I have no idea if it plays a role during the life of a cell. I don’t know anything about how sexual reproduction goes about building a new chromosome by selecting pieces from the chromosomes of the parents, but on the face of it, changing the layout (or in mathematical terms, the metric) could lead to omission or duplication errors in the result.

TL;DR Be careful what you wish for.

—Barry

On 22 Jan 2021, at 18:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Most of the human genome doesn't express as proteins, so there should be lots of room to store stuff.
Such technology is hardly science fiction, it's even FDA approved!

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-novel-gene-therapy-treat-patients-rare-form-inherited-vision-loss

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 2:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ZBnvzzf17o8ol-66dBuDo8bTzQU-jFB9dZtS2SvGA5OXPgS5gD-g-Ub8Qb5VBJHiGQ64OwZdN9s6n02B35k8_UQc5DP-lWleJxA0HG83aky2JsFIkQ,,&typo=1
FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,731pFgyYVhCAF2OTZ98g4GA1HQlZtZ6CQLmmbMC8Bt02Tfm0aosSdLe9xv3LwF8h6G9QHU1fCBpJQwjbmtpioRuUFJpCHSqmmqa2FOerSQ,,&typo=1
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

thompnickson2

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

Like I said. DNA is not just a code. It’s a bit of meat. It has geometry. The silent DNA is presumably crucial to that dynamic geometry.

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 11:20 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

Eric

On Jan 25, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

There used to be a lot of talk about “junk DNA” which doesn’t do anything, but I’ve gotten the impression (sorry, I can’t give references) that more recently the “junk DNA” does play a role.
Also, adjacency or propinquity of genes on a chromosome affects evolution (if I get one of the genes from a parent, I’m highly likely to get the other also). I have no idea if it plays a role during the life of a cell. I don’t know anything about how sexual reproduction goes about building a new chromosome by selecting pieces from the chromosomes of the parents, but on the face of it, changing the layout (or in mathematical terms, the metric) could lead to omission or duplication errors in the result.
TL;DR Be careful what you wish for.
—Barry

On 22 Jan 2021, at 18:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:
Most of the human genome doesn't express as proteins, so there should be lots of room to store stuff.
Such technology is hardly science fiction, it's even FDA approved!

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-novel-gene-therapy-treat-patients-rare-form-inherited-vision-loss

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 2:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ZBnvzzf17o8ol-66dBuDo8bTzQU-jFB9dZtS2SvGA5OXPgS5gD-g-Ub8Qb5VBJHiGQ64OwZdN9s6n02B35k8_UQc5DP-lWleJxA0HG83aky2JsFIkQ,,&typo=1
FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,731pFgyYVhCAF2OTZ98g4GA1HQlZtZ6CQLmmbMC8Bt02Tfm0aosSdLe9xv3LwF8h6G9QHU1fCBpJQwjbmtpioRuUFJpCHSqmmqa2FOerSQ,,&typo=1
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

But going back to Dave’s original proposition: What are the limiting factors in bundling up new stretches of DNA in chromatin? The fossils of viruses are in there, so apparently it is possible.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of [hidden email]
Sent: Monday, January 25, 2021 10:00 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>; Peter and Janet Lailey <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

Like I said. DNA is not just a code. It’s a bit of meat. It has geometry. The silent DNA is presumably crucial to that dynamic geometry.

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Eric

On Jan 25, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

There used to be a lot of talk about “junk DNA” which doesn’t do anything, but I’ve gotten the impression (sorry, I can’t give references) that more recently the “junk DNA” does play a role.

Also, adjacency or propinquity of genes on a chromosome affects evolution (if I get one of the genes from a parent, I’m highly likely to get the other also). I have no idea if it plays a role during the life of a cell. I don’t know anything about how sexual reproduction goes about building a new chromosome by selecting pieces from the chromosomes of the parents, but on the face of it, changing the layout (or in mathematical terms, the metric) could lead to omission or duplication errors in the result.

TL;DR Be careful what you wish for.

—Barry

On 22 Jan 2021, at 18:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Most of the human genome doesn't express as proteins, so there should be lots of room to store stuff.
Such technology is hardly science fiction, it's even FDA approved!

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-novel-gene-therapy-treat-patients-rare-form-inherited-vision-loss

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 2:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ZBnvzzf17o8ol-66dBuDo8bTzQU-jFB9dZtS2SvGA5OXPgS5gD-g-Ub8Qb5VBJHiGQ64OwZdN9s6n02B35k8_UQc5DP-lWleJxA0HG83aky2JsFIkQ,,&typo=1
FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,731pFgyYVhCAF2OTZ98g4GA1HQlZtZ6CQLmmbMC8Bt02Tfm0aosSdLe9xv3LwF8h6G9QHU1fCBpJQwjbmtpioRuUFJpCHSqmmqa2FOerSQ,,&typo=1
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: tangent from uncanny valley

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1557762/

9989 bp, that’s a decent-sized code drop. Nothing by the standards of software deltas, though.

Like I said. DNA is not just a code. It’s a bit of meat. It has geometry. The silent DNA is presumably crucial to that dynamic geometry.

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

Eric

On Jan 25, 2021, at 11:09 AM, Barry MacKichan <[hidden email]> wrote:

There used to be a lot of talk about “junk DNA” which doesn’t do anything, but I’ve gotten the impression (sorry, I can’t give references) that more recently the “junk DNA” does play a role.

Also, adjacency or propinquity of genes on a chromosome affects evolution (if I get one of the genes from a parent, I’m highly likely to get the other also). I have no idea if it plays a role during the life of a cell. I don’t know anything about how sexual reproduction goes about building a new chromosome by selecting pieces from the chromosomes of the parents, but on the face of it, changing the layout (or in mathematical terms, the metric) could lead to omission or duplication errors in the result.

TL;DR Be careful what you wish for.

—Barry

On 22 Jan 2021, at 18:37, Marcus Daniels wrote:

Most of the human genome doesn't express as proteins, so there should be lots of room to store stuff.
Such technology is hardly science fiction, it's even FDA approved!

https://www.fda.gov/news-events/press-announcements/fda-approves-novel-gene-therapy-treat-patients-rare-form-inherited-vision-loss

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Friday, January 22, 2021 2:43 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] tangent from uncanny valley

The idea of posthuman came up (yes it was me) in another thread. This article https://www.nature.com/articles/s41589-020-00711-4 opens an interesting door: "reprogramming" DNA by inserting new data into living DNA. After all a program is just another form of data. This might be orthogonal to genetic (re)engineering.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,ZBnvzzf17o8ol-66dBuDo8bTzQU-jFB9dZtS2SvGA5OXPgS5gD-g-Ub8Qb5VBJHiGQ64OwZdN9s6n02B35k8_UQc5DP-lWleJxA0HG83aky2JsFIkQ,,&typo=1
FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,731pFgyYVhCAF2OTZ98g4GA1HQlZtZ6CQLmmbMC8Bt02Tfm0aosSdLe9xv3LwF8h6G9QHU1fCBpJQwjbmtpioRuUFJpCHSqmmqa2FOerSQ,,&typo=1
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/