swarm-based differential GPS?
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swarm-based differential GPS?
 
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Does anyone know of any P2P folk that have worked toward a pure
peer differential GPS? There's a bunch of stuff on openp2p.com, but it's a lot to wade through. Thought I would check with the local folks before proceeding. The idea would be for the peers to figure out where they were relative to other relatively nearby peers with high accuracy. Absolute positioning would not be a primary requirement. Assume each peer would have a very good clock and some sort of radio peer routing. I can find references to P2P using GPS, but not forming the GPS itself. The application I'm thinking of would be out of town. Way out of town. Carl |
swarm-based differential GPS?
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Carl,
Traditionally, when you are way away from earth, star tracker is used. This is typically a single unit, at most two, for redundancy. The higher the resolution, the more expensive (usually one of the more expensive items on a spacecraft). Your idea about a differential system, each having lower resolution but with several of them working together, may be worth looking into if this is much less expensive - an analogy is the multiple-mirror telescope. I would be interested to learn more about your idea. Belinda -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:57 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Does anyone know of any P2P folk that have worked toward a pure peer differential GPS? There's a bunch of stuff on openp2p.com, but it's a lot to wade through. Thought I would check with the local folks before proceeding. The idea would be for the peers to figure out where they were relative to other relatively nearby peers with high accuracy. Absolute positioning would not be a primary requirement. Assume each peer would have a very good clock and some sort of radio peer routing. I can find references to P2P using GPS, but not forming the GPS itself. The application I'm thinking of would be out of town. Way out of town. Carl ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
swarm-based differential GPS?
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Belinda:
I'm curious about how often you're "away from earth" ? Richard -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Belinda Wong-Swanson Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:14 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Carl, Traditionally, when you are way away from earth, star tracker is used. This is typically a single unit, at most two, for redundancy. The higher the resolution, the more expensive (usually one of the more expensive items on a spacecraft). Your idea about a differential system, each having lower resolution but with several of them working together, may be worth looking into if this is much less expensive - an analogy is the multiple-mirror telescope. I would be interested to learn more about your idea. Belinda -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:57 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Does anyone know of any P2P folk that have worked toward a pure peer differential GPS? There's a bunch of stuff on openp2p.com, but it's a lot to wade through. Thought I would check with the local folks before proceeding. The idea would be for the peers to figure out where they were relative to other relatively nearby peers with high accuracy. Absolute positioning would not be a primary requirement. Assume each peer would have a very good clock and some sort of radio peer routing. I can find references to P2P using GPS, but not forming the GPS itself. The application I'm thinking of would be out of town. Way out of town. Carl ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
swarm-based differential GPS?
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Belinda & Carl:
All kidding aside ... a 2-3 station DGPS can be incredibly accurate ... within a few centimeters. We've used DGPS routinely in nautical archaeology surveys, sometimes at substantial depth ... 300M or more, and could locate a single teacup at that depth in a 100sq.km. area. We of course were interested in mapping objects in THREE-dimensional space, and deployed 5 bottom (stable) transponders that interacted with the ship's unit and two shore-based units 30km away. It's hard to imagine needing resolution much greater than that. The cost would be prohibitive. For any sort of "Differential" GPS, you need at least two extremely-stable stations ... units whose locations do not move at ALL. I'm not familiar with the latest and greatest P2P technology, but the GPS aspect would require minimally 3 GPS units communicating with each other, where two are stable (as above) with VERY accurate positions. The 3rd unit could then be precisely located. If ALL 3 units moved, the accuracy and precision would, at best, be the mean of all 3 units, and limited by the lowest resolution unit. It's been about 8 years since I've done this sort of work, but I'm not aware of technology that would permit DGPS with completely free-roaming units. It's not clear to me that 3 or even 10 such units would improve on what a single unit offers ... rather, it seems that you'd be compounding all the errors of all the other units, however small. It is an interesting question, but don't know if it has yet been answered. Richard -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Dr. Richard Cassin - Rio Grande Venture Partners Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:51 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Belinda: I'm curious about how often you're "away from earth" ? Richard -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Belinda Wong-Swanson Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:14 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Carl, Traditionally, when you are way away from earth, star tracker is used. This is typically a single unit, at most two, for redundancy. The higher the resolution, the more expensive (usually one of the more expensive items on a spacecraft). Your idea about a differential system, each having lower resolution but with several of them working together, may be worth looking into if this is much less expensive - an analogy is the multiple-mirror telescope. I would be interested to learn more about your idea. Belinda -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:57 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Does anyone know of any P2P folk that have worked toward a pure peer differential GPS? There's a bunch of stuff on openp2p.com, but it's a lot to wade through. Thought I would check with the local folks before proceeding. The idea would be for the peers to figure out where they were relative to other relatively nearby peers with high accuracy. Absolute positioning would not be a primary requirement. Assume each peer would have a very good clock and some sort of radio peer routing. I can find references to P2P using GPS, but not forming the GPS itself. The application I'm thinking of would be out of town. Way out of town. Carl ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
swarm-based differential GPS?
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In reply to this post by Friam mailing list
Physically never (since I got turned down by NASA 9 times for payload
specialist!), mentally daily. -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Dr. Richard Cassin - Rio Grande Venture Partners Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:51 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Belinda: I'm curious about how often you're "away from earth" ? Richard -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Belinda Wong-Swanson Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:14 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Carl, Traditionally, when you are way away from earth, star tracker is used. This is typically a single unit, at most two, for redundancy. The higher the resolution, the more expensive (usually one of the more expensive items on a spacecraft). Your idea about a differential system, each having lower resolution but with several of them working together, may be worth looking into if this is much less expensive - an analogy is the multiple-mirror telescope. I would be interested to learn more about your idea. Belinda -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:57 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Does anyone know of any P2P folk that have worked toward a pure peer differential GPS? There's a bunch of stuff on openp2p.com, but it's a lot to wade through. Thought I would check with the local folks before proceeding. The idea would be for the peers to figure out where they were relative to other relatively nearby peers with high accuracy. Absolute positioning would not be a primary requirement. Assume each peer would have a very good clock and some sort of radio peer routing. I can find references to P2P using GPS, but not forming the GPS itself. The application I'm thinking of would be out of town. Way out of town. Carl ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
swarm-based differential GPS?
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In reply to this post by Friam mailing list
Richard,
Carl & I discussed his idea some more this morning at FRIAM. He is looking for relative positioning among the swarm satellites, that is, having each satellite know where its near neighbors are with respect to itself. I think each satellite could have a transmitter and several directional receivers, or one laser that could rotate in space might work. We plan to look into this further. We are also planning to contact your friends at Engineered Collectives later on to find out more about the capabilities of their swarm bots and look at possible collaboration opportunities. Cheers, Belinda -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Dr. Richard Cassin - Rio Grande Venture Partners Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 6:36 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Belinda & Carl: All kidding aside ... a 2-3 station DGPS can be incredibly accurate ... within a few centimeters. We've used DGPS routinely in nautical archaeology surveys, sometimes at substantial depth ... 300M or more, and could locate a single teacup at that depth in a 100sq.km. area. We of course were interested in mapping objects in THREE-dimensional space, and deployed 5 bottom (stable) transponders that interacted with the ship's unit and two shore-based units 30km away. It's hard to imagine needing resolution much greater than that. The cost would be prohibitive. For any sort of "Differential" GPS, you need at least two extremely-stable stations ... units whose locations do not move at ALL. I'm not familiar with the latest and greatest P2P technology, but the GPS aspect would require minimally 3 GPS units communicating with each other, where two are stable (as above) with VERY accurate positions. The 3rd unit could then be precisely located. If ALL 3 units moved, the accuracy and precision would, at best, be the mean of all 3 units, and limited by the lowest resolution unit. It's been about 8 years since I've done this sort of work, but I'm not aware of technology that would permit DGPS with completely free-roaming units. It's not clear to me that 3 or even 10 such units would improve on what a single unit offers ... rather, it seems that you'd be compounding all the errors of all the other units, however small. It is an interesting question, but don't know if it has yet been answered. Richard -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Dr. Richard Cassin - Rio Grande Venture Partners Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:51 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Belinda: I'm curious about how often you're "away from earth" ? Richard -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Belinda Wong-Swanson Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:14 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Carl, Traditionally, when you are way away from earth, star tracker is used. This is typically a single unit, at most two, for redundancy. The higher the resolution, the more expensive (usually one of the more expensive items on a spacecraft). Your idea about a differential system, each having lower resolution but with several of them working together, may be worth looking into if this is much less expensive - an analogy is the multiple-mirror telescope. I would be interested to learn more about your idea. Belinda -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:57 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Does anyone know of any P2P folk that have worked toward a pure peer differential GPS? There's a bunch of stuff on openp2p.com, but it's a lot to wade through. Thought I would check with the local folks before proceeding. The idea would be for the peers to figure out where they were relative to other relatively nearby peers with high accuracy. Absolute positioning would not be a primary requirement. Assume each peer would have a very good clock and some sort of radio peer routing. I can find references to P2P using GPS, but not forming the GPS itself. The application I'm thinking of would be out of town. Way out of town. Carl ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
swarm-based differential GPS?
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In reply to this post by Friam mailing list
So if we actually found a way, it would have High Paradigmicity.
I think we need to go back and review how GPS and DGPS work in more detail before proceeding much further. The answer may use some GPS elements but not otherwise look like GPS at all. Radio and clock technologies have improved since GPS protocols were settled on. GPS is of course not the only game in town. There is a European system (Galileo) and the Russian system (GLONASS). -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Dr. Richard Cassin - Rio Grande Venture Partners Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 6:36 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Belinda & Carl: All kidding aside ... a 2-3 station DGPS can be incredibly accurate ... within a few centimeters. We've used DGPS routinely in nautical archaeology surveys, sometimes at substantial depth ... 300M or more, and could locate a single teacup at that depth in a 100sq.km. area. We of course were interested in mapping objects in THREE-dimensional space, and deployed 5 bottom (stable) transponders that interacted with the ship's unit and two shore-based units 30km away. It's hard to imagine needing resolution much greater than that. The cost would be prohibitive. For any sort of "Differential" GPS, you need at least two extremely-stable stations ... units whose locations do not move at ALL. I'm not familiar with the latest and greatest P2P technology, but the GPS aspect would require minimally 3 GPS units communicating with each other, where two are stable (as above) with VERY accurate positions. The 3rd unit could then be precisely located. If ALL 3 units moved, the accuracy and precision would, at best, be the mean of all 3 units, and limited by the lowest resolution unit. It's been about 8 years since I've done this sort of work, but I'm not aware of technology that would permit DGPS with completely free-roaming units. It's not clear to me that 3 or even 10 such units would improve on what a single unit offers ... rather, it seems that you'd be compounding all the errors of all the other units, however small. It is an interesting question, but don't know if it has yet been answered. Richard -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Dr. Richard Cassin - Rio Grande Venture Partners Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 5:51 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Belinda: I'm curious about how often you're "away from earth" ? Richard -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Belinda Wong-Swanson Sent: Friday, February 07, 2003 8:14 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: RE: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Carl, Traditionally, when you are way away from earth, star tracker is used. This is typically a single unit, at most two, for redundancy. The higher the resolution, the more expensive (usually one of the more expensive items on a spacecraft). Your idea about a differential system, each having lower resolution but with several of them working together, may be worth looking into if this is much less expensive - an analogy is the multiple-mirror telescope. I would be interested to learn more about your idea. Belinda -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]]On Behalf Of Carl Tollander Sent: Thursday, February 06, 2003 9:57 PM To: [hidden email] Subject: [Friam] swarm-based differential GPS? Does anyone know of any P2P folk that have worked toward a pure peer differential GPS? There's a bunch of stuff on openp2p.com, but it's a lot to wade through. Thought I would check with the local folks before proceeding. The idea would be for the peers to figure out where they were relative to other relatively nearby peers with high accuracy. Absolute positioning would not be a primary requirement. Assume each peer would have a very good clock and some sort of radio peer routing. I can find references to P2P using GPS, but not forming the GPS itself. The application I'm thinking of would be out of town. Way out of town. Carl ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ========================================================= FRIAM Complexity Coffee listserv Meets Fridays 9AM @ Museum Hill Cafe Archives, unsubscribe, etc.: http://www.redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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