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re emergence vol 89,11

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HighlandWindsLLC Miller

re emergence vol 89,11

responding to Nick's question on what I meant on my emergence question:

What I am wondering related to emergent behavior patterns is whether, for example, with the "flocking syndrome", if put into a different top-down environment, would it possibly retain the flocking characteristics, but shift them to flock with others, or look for other entities to flock with -- or whether the tendency to flock itself would go away.
This relates to questions, thoughts I have, about how if one believes that humans have flocking characteristics (some of them) (as I do believe) then if environmental factors stop ability to communicate or somehow alter ability of those active flockers to flock in groups they are used to, (let's say, for argument, to try to bring about progressive change that helps the planet) will they simply a) regroup for different battles to push for/with; b)stop regrouping; c) get new types to group for planetary battles.
So I wondered if studies on shifting top-down impacts on emergence behavior exist.

Peggy Miller
Missoula, Mt.

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <[hidden email]>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:14:40 -0700
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] emergence -- studies on "top down" limitations

Peggy,

I felt I “ought” to be able to answer this question … note the use of modal language. ( My sense of obligation and five dollars will get you a [small] cup of coffee in any restaurant in Santa Fe.) But I am not sure I quite understood your question. Is there a particular situation to which the question applies that you could describe to me? It might be easier to answer in the particular.

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of peggy miller
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 11:12 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] emergence -- studies on "top down" limitations

Since "top-down" impacts emergent behavior, have there been studies that take the same number and types of entities that are known to have emergent behavior of some predictable form -- like flock of set type of birds, and systematically change the "top" environment those entities exist in to study whether it impacts the emergent behavior that forms?

Thanks for any input from you all.
Peggy Miller

--

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Re: re emergence vol 89,11

Peggy,
I think a possible confusion is that changing "the environment" does not necessarily produce a top-down effect. The terminology is too fuzzy. For example, you can easily take a model of fish schooling, which will look quite a bit like fish in water, then change some parameters so it is like they are in oil. The schools will look different. However, all the effects will still be the result of micro-interactions of each fish with it's immediate environment - you just have different bottom-up effects. Because I'm not sure how to tell which changes in the environment would qualify as top-down, that's about the best I can offer.

Does that make any sense?

Eric

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:35 PM, peggy miller <[hidden email]> wrote:

responding to Nick's question on what I meant on my emergence question:

What I am wondering related to emergent behavior patterns is whether, for example, with the "flocking syndrome", if put into a different top-down environment, would it possibly retain the flocking characteristics, but shift them to flock with others, or look for other entities to flock with -- or whether the tendency to flock itself would go away.
This relates to questions, thoughts I have, about how if one believes that humans have flocking characteristics (some of them) (as I do believe) then if environmental factors stop ability to communicate or somehow alter ability of those active flockers to flock in groups they are used to, (let's say, for argument, to try to bring about progressive change that helps the planet) will they simply a) regroup for different battles to push for/with; b)stop regrouping; c) get new types to group for planetary battles.
So I wondered if studies on shifting top-down impacts on emergence behavior exist.

Peggy Miller
Missoula, Mt.

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson@...>
To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <friam@...>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:14:40 -0700
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] emergence -- studies on "top down" limitations

Peggy,

I felt I “ought” to be able to answer this question … note the use of modal language. ( My sense of obligation and five dollars will get you a [small] cup of coffee in any restaurant in Santa Fe.) But I am not sure I quite understood your question. Is there a particular situation to which the question applies that you could describe to me? It might be easier to answer in the particular.

Nick

From: friam-bounces@... [mailto:friam-bounces@...] On Behalf Of peggy miller
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 11:12 AM
To: friam@...
Subject: [FRIAM] emergence -- studies on "top down" limitations

Since "top-down" impacts emergent behavior, have there been studies that take the same number and types of entities that are known to have emergent behavior of some predictable form -- like flock of set type of birds, and systematically change the "top" environment those entities exist in to study whether it impacts the emergent behavior that forms?

Thanks for any input from you all.
Peggy Miller

--
Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Nick Thompson

Re: re emergence vol 89,11

Ah. THANK you, Eric. That was my problem but I couldn’t find the words to express it. Whether one treats something as a top down or a bottom up effect is perhaps more ideological than empirical.

Even in the case of Daylight Saving Time one could decide to talk about it as effects of individual people hearing on the TV that “tomorrow is the day the time changes.”

Nick

From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of ERIC P. CHARLES
Sent: Sunday, November 14, 2010 3:02 PM
To: peggy miller
Cc: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] re emergence vol 89,11

Peggy,

Nick

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

HighlandWindsLLC Miller

Re: re emergence vol 89,11

In reply to this post by Eric Charles

Very good point, Eric. Yes, that makes sense. Terminology is too fuzzy. I need to go back to my readings on emergence to see if the terms "top-down" are clearly defined.
Peggy

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 at 3:01 PM, ERIC P. CHARLES <[hidden email]> wrote:

Peggy,
I think a possible confusion is that changing "the environment" does not necessarily produce a top-down effect. The terminology is too fuzzy. For example, you can easily take a model of fish schooling, which will look quite a bit like fish in water, then change some parameters so it is like they are in oil. The schools will look different. However, all the effects will still be the result of micro-interactions of each fish with it's immediate environment - you just have different bottom-up effects. Because I'm not sure how to tell which changes in the environment would qualify as top-down, that's about the best I can offer.

Does that make any sense?

Eric

On Sun, Nov 14, 2010 12:35 PM, peggy miller <[hidden email]> wrote:
responding to Nick's question on what I meant on my emergence question:

What I am wondering related to emergent behavior patterns is whether, for example, with the "flocking syndrome", if put into a different top-down environment, would it possibly retain the flocking characteristics, but shift them to flock with others, or look for other entities to flock with -- or whether the tendency to flock itself would go away.
This relates to questions, thoughts I have, about how if one believes that humans have flocking characteristics (some of them) (as I do believe) then if environmental factors stop ability to communicate or somehow alter ability of those active flockers to flock in groups they are used to, (let's say, for argument, to try to bring about progressive change that helps the planet) will they simply a) regroup for different battles to push for/with; b)stop regrouping; c) get new types to group for planetary battles.
So I wondered if studies on shifting top-down impacts on emergence behavior exist.

Peggy Miller
Missoula, Mt.

From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson@...>
To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" <friam@...>
Date: Sat, 13 Nov 2010 12:14:40 -0700
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] emergence -- studies on "top down" limitations

Peggy,

I felt I “ought” to be able to answer this question … note the use of modal language. ( My sense of obligation and five dollars will get you a [small] cup of coffee in any restaurant in Santa Fe.) But I am not sure I quite understood your question. Is there a particular situation to which the question applies that you could describe to me? It might be easier to answer in the particular.

Nick

From: friam-bounces@... [mailto:friam-bounces@...] On Behalf Of peggy miller
Sent: Saturday, November 13, 2010 11:12 AM
To: friam@...
Subject: [FRIAM] emergence -- studies on "top down" limitations

Since "top-down" impacts emergent behavior, have there been studies that take the same number and types of entities that are known to have emergent behavior of some predictable form -- like flock of set type of birds, and systematically change the "top" environment those entities exist in to study whether it impacts the emergent behavior that forms?

Thanks for any input from you all.
Peggy Miller

--
Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
Eric Charles

Professional Student and
Assistant Professor of Psychology
Penn State University
Altoona, PA 16601

Peggy Miller, owner/OEO

Highland Winds

Art, Photography, Herbs and Writings

406-541-7577 (home/office/shop)