Friam

ranked choice voting

Classic

List

Threaded

21 messages Options

gepr

ranked choice voting

Back in November, I set up a RCV at OpaVote just so we could see how it works. I've just received a spreadsheet laying out an algorithm the Olympia city council used for a recent vote to "elect" a new city council member. It might be fun to run an election in both OpaVote and with the spreadsheet and contrast the result. If anyone's interested, I'll *try* to commit to attending on Friday to do that ... maybe we could vote on the most abused concept in scitech: agent, entanglement, Gödel's ITs, cloud, darwinian, meme, unit test, object(-oriented), ...

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Steve Smith

Re: ranked choice voting

this might even bring me onto vFriAM in spite of standing
time-conflicts... hope you do it in any case...

On 1/6/21 12:44 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
> Back in November, I set up a RCV at OpaVote just so we could see how it works. I've just received a spreadsheet laying out an algorithm the Olympia city council used for a recent vote to "elect" a new city council member. It might be fun to run an election in both OpaVote and with the spreadsheet and contrast the result. If anyone's interested, I'll *try* to commit to attending on Friday to do that ... maybe we could vote on the most abused concept in scitech: agent, entanglement, Gödel's ITs, cloud, darwinian, meme, unit test, object(-oriented), ...
>
>

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by gepr

Fascinating juxtaposition of Trumpsters inserting themselves into the
Capitol building with other stories/factoids such as Broebert from CO
claiming her "right" to carry a firearm in the Capitol Building (1967
ruling allows for that?) but also implying she was going to swagger
around DC with it in spite of their very restrictive rules:

    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_laws_in_the_District_of_Columbia


https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/legal-issues/boebert-capitol-guns/2021/01/04/a59f70f8-4e9d-11eb-83e3-322644d82356_story.html

I'm surprised that the Capitol Police (tactically/emotionally?) were not
prepared to prevent/repel this kind of intrusion.   While most news
outlets describe the events to the moment as "peaceful", I suspect that
if they had been more strongly resisted/repelled, the illusion of peace
(forcing yourselves past a security checkpoint is a sort of violence
even if law enforcement don't choose to assert *their* franchise on
violence to prevent that) would have evaporated in a fog of tear-gas
punctuated with flash-bangs and riot-shields/clubs/boots striking
flesh... Kinda like Trump's "walk of shame" to the church this summer.

Mary just showed me a clip on her phone of men in Proud Boy Regalia and
others in Maga-Drag fighting with (Capitol/DC/?) cops....

Also in "real time" we just heard that there was one person taken out of
the Capitol on a Gurney (bleeding) and that one person was shot inside
the Capitol Building by Law Enforcement (same person?)...

Back to the 2nd Amendment, I keep expecting to hear that one (or more)
of the members of Congress pull their 2nd Amendment Rights out of their
(presumably locked cases?) and plug some of the crazies?

I normally cultivate my Morbid Fascination, but even I am finding this a
little bit "too much".

- Steve

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

gepr

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

My fascination isn't morbid but focused on the opportunity to modify/eliminate the obsolete electoral college system. I doubt the rhetoric that "our democracy is under assault", for both this protest and when the guard was called out for the BLM protest. What's under assault is the hermeneutical complex by which our democracy works. Populists from both sides are confused about how infrastructure should and does work.

The recent refusal to charge Sheskey in the Blake shooting is a good example. Those of us who've had intimate run-ins with how "justice" works in various parts of the country won't be surprised if a DA claims his office wouldn't be able to out-argue a self-defense defense in court, especially not with the qualified immunity cops tend to have.

It's akin to the problems presented by explainable AI/ML. Where do you set the bar for algorithm complexity in relation to Joe Sixpack's ability to understand an algorithm? Should it be understandable? I have this very same problem with ranked choice voting and the security-risk-through-obfuscation of supply chain attacks and any large-scale open-source project.

This tension between understandability and efficacy is ubiquitous.

On 1/6/21 12:32 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> I normally cultivate my Morbid Fascination, but even I am finding this a
> little bit "too much".

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

< Back to the 2nd Amendment, I keep expecting to hear that one (or more) of the members of Congress pull their 2nd Amendment Rights out of their (presumably locked cases?) and plug some of the crazies? >

We need to stroke their little heads and feel some empathy for them!

Marcus
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

David Eric Smith

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

It would do to unseat all those engaged in today’s little display, as co-conspirators with the group outside.

Gosh, Mitch, you seem to have lost the senate today by 16 seats. Had you wanted a better outcome, you might have made some different decisions (hundreds of them) systematically over the last 4 years.

Now, AOC, what legislation was it that you wanted passed?

Eric

> On Jan 6, 2021, at 5:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> < Back to the 2nd Amendment, I keep expecting to hear that one (or more) of the members of Congress pull their 2nd Amendment Rights out of their (presumably locked cases?) and plug some of the crazies? >
>
> We need to stroke their little heads and feel some empathy for them!
>
> Marcus
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,qOETWquO77XiQJ6ISrpm734iVfC_RaHSN14VhvFKuBx4PlXsXnOE6sxnMk92923v2p2KAq6FQbQupIVCsZnAudJPkWlVoOnXdhyNKz2H3QcOyzaaThemWoo6&typo=1
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,3DL5_AvpxfvE4qAaQ_nN7W5hURbkvye1wR1C8I7zRx9KkftOdDleyASQXICsFW24nREKJzjaF8Ub-zfnVZgOTalOzJC_DkP54hdTNfVH3w,,&typo=1

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

Well said, Eric.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Wed, Jan 6, 2021, 3:34 PM David Eric Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

It would do to unseat all those engaged in today’s little display, as co-conspirators with the group outside.

Gosh, Mitch, you seem to have lost the senate today by 16 seats. Had you wanted a better outcome, you might have made some different decisions (hundreds of them) systematically over the last 4 years.

Now, AOC, what legislation was it that you wanted passed?

Eric

> On Jan 6, 2021, at 5:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> < Back to the 2nd Amendment, I keep expecting to hear that one (or more) of the members of Congress pull their 2nd Amendment Rights out of their (presumably locked cases?) and plug some of the crazies? >
>
> We need to stroke their little heads and feel some empathy for them!
>
> Marcus
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,qOETWquO77XiQJ6ISrpm734iVfC_RaHSN14VhvFKuBx4PlXsXnOE6sxnMk92923v2p2KAq6FQbQupIVCsZnAudJPkWlVoOnXdhyNKz2H3QcOyzaaThemWoo6&typo=1
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,3DL5_AvpxfvE4qAaQ_nN7W5hURbkvye1wR1C8I7zRx9KkftOdDleyASQXICsFW24nREKJzjaF8Ub-zfnVZgOTalOzJC_DkP54hdTNfVH3w,,&typo=1

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

Couldn't they fill some of those bland looking government buses with beer, as bait? I volunteer to drive.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 2:34 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

It would do to unseat all those engaged in today’s little display, as co-conspirators with the group outside.

Gosh, Mitch, you seem to have lost the senate today by 16 seats. Had you wanted a better outcome, you might have made some different decisions (hundreds of them) systematically over the last 4 years.

Now, AOC, what legislation was it that you wanted passed?

Eric

> On Jan 6, 2021, at 5:30 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
>
> < Back to the 2nd Amendment, I keep expecting to hear that one (or
> more) of the members of Congress pull their 2nd Amendment Rights out
> of their (presumably locked cases?) and plug some of the crazies? >
>
> We need to stroke their little heads and feel some empathy for them!
>
> Marcus
> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn
> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailm
> an%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,qOETWquO77XiQJ6ISrpm734iVfC_Ra
> HSN14VhvFKuBx4PlXsXnOE6sxnMk92923v2p2KAq6FQbQupIVCsZnAudJPkWlVoOnXdhyN
> Kz2H3QcOyzaaThemWoo6&typo=1
> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> FRIAM-COMIC
> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspo
> t.com%2f&c=E,1,3DL5_AvpxfvE4qAaQ_nN7W5hURbkvye1wR1C8I7zRx9KkftOdDleyAS
> QXICsFW24nREKJzjaF8Ub-zfnVZgOTalOzJC_DkP54hdTNfVH3w,,&typo=1

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

jon zingale

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

Dear 2021,

Please, let us please retire the word "unprecedented".

Lovingly yours,

Jon

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen -
> My fascination isn't morbid but focused on the opportunity to modify/eliminate the obsolete electoral college system.

I never intended to suggest that YOUR's or anyone else's but my own has
a strong morbid-fascination aspect.   This is one of my character
flaws... while the Trumpsters are doubling down on conspiracy, I have
been doubling down on morbid fascination. Perhaps reporting such is
un-useful.

I think your analysis here (as usual) is generally valid and hopefully
even specifically useful. Perhaps my own morbid fascination is like
nervous hysterical laughter as a release to then (maybe) allow me to
proceed with something more useful once I've disgorged.   I do think the
dynamic range in quantitative and qualitative complexity has become very
problematic for average citizens, up to and including most of us on this
semi-rarified list of technically/intellectually inclined unto-astute.

You speak often of "compression" in a general but technical sense. I
suppose this is a problem of the character of the lossiness in the
compression algorithm of-choice.   Bleeding Heart Liberals (is that
still a term?) and Knee Jerk Conservatives represent *different* but
maybe similar lossy compressions?   Populism seems to be the
over-arching family of algorithms and dog-whistles and jargon are (part
of) the code book? My direct experience with conspiracists aligns with
this... conspiracy #22.b-1.3 (by some arcane name) from conspiracy
domain Zed (e.g. Chemtrail, Illuminati, Atlantean, Lizard-Peeps,
Anti-Vax, Anti-Flouride, Q-anon etc.) seems to invoke a reserved Lexicon
among subscribers and (un)surprisingingly those with one subscription
seem to have a whole host of parallel subscriptions.

- Steve

> I doubt the rhetoric that "our democracy is under assault", for both this protest and when the guard was called out for the BLM protest. What's under assault is the hermeneutical complex by which our democracy works. Populists from both sides are confused about how infrastructure should and does work.
>
> The recent refusal to charge Sheskey in the Blake shooting is a good example. Those of us who've had intimate run-ins with how "justice" works in various parts of the country won't be surprised if a DA claims his office wouldn't be able to out-argue a self-defense defense in court, especially not with the qualified immunity cops tend to have.
>
> It's akin to the problems presented by explainable AI/ML. Where do you set the bar for algorithm complexity in relation to Joe Sixpack's ability to understand an algorithm? Should it be understandable? I have this very same problem with ranked choice voting and the security-risk-through-obfuscation of supply chain attacks and any large-scale open-source project.
>
> This tension between understandability and efficacy is ubiquitous.
>
> On 1/6/21 12:32 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
>> I normally cultivate my Morbid Fascination, but even I am finding this a
>> little bit "too much".
>

Steve Smith

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by jon zingale

>Dear 2021,

Please, let us please retire the word "unprecedented".

“You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.” – Inigo Montoya


Lovingly yours,

Jon



--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Collective Stigmergic Nouns

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

When/how does a herd become a pack become a flock become a school become a mob? What are their distinguishing modes? What are the units/metrics of their "stigmergic fields"?

https://arstechnica.com/science/2021/01/birds-of-a-feather-flock-together-but-patterns-change-with-the-mission/

And what was today's Capitol Mob's "mission", it would seem to be the superposition of many related missions, but with significant entrainment and coupling between the collective behaviors? I'd guess the families with kids in strollers weren't quite on the same page as those with bargain tactical gear and surely Trump's openly proud, Proud Boys. "... mother who has raised her son so well" .

https://genius.com/Jerry-jeff-walker-up-against-the-wall-redneck-mother-lyrics

thompnickson2

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by jon zingale

I'll retire unprecedented if you will retire "incredible".

Deal?

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of jon zingale
Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 6:11 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives
Manner?

Dear 2021,

Please, let us please retire the word "unprecedented".

Lovingly yours,

Jon

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

gepr

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Prolly won't go anywhere. But maybe I'm cynical:

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/01/06/progressives-back-rep-cori-bushs-resolution-expel-lawmakers-who-incited-violent

Anyway, it's the Senate that matters. Here's the vote records (select "Yea/Aye" in the Votes drop down):

https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/202110?Page=2
https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/202111?Page=2

I think motion 10 was against electors from AZ and 11 was against PA. Similarly for the Senate:

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=117&session=1&vote=00001#position
https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=117&session=1&vote=00002#position

I think it's super fvcking SCARY to hear people talking about expelling democratically elected members of congress just for raising objections and voting. I drift a bit more toward Dave's position when the left talks like that. The people who should be arrested, tried, and (if found guilty) punished are the assholes who broke into the Capitol, *not* duly elected representatives following congressional rules as best they can. The left can't have the cake and eat it. Either our elections are relatively trustworthy or they're not.

The instigators like Gosar, Perry, Cruz, and Hawley deserve some blowback, maybe even expulsion. But not the others who simply voted for the objections.

On 1/6/21 3:40 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> Couldn't they fill some of those bland looking government buses with beer, as bait? I volunteer to drive.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 2:34 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?
>
> It would do to unseat all those engaged in today’s little display, as co-conspirators with the group outside.
>
> Gosh, Mitch, you seem to have lost the senate today by 16 seats. Had you wanted a better outcome, you might have made some different decisions (hundreds of them) systematically over the last 4 years.
>
> Now, AOC, what legislation was it that you wanted passed?
>
> Eric

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

Ironically, people like Matt Gaetz are a pretty good explanation for how antifa thinking comes to be.
Every model induced, every word spoken in debate with them is wasted time.
That's why they keep talking about antifa: They know they have it coming.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 9:07 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

Prolly won't go anywhere. But maybe I'm cynical:

https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/01/06/progressives-back-rep-cori-bushs-resolution-expel-lawmakers-who-incited-violent

Anyway, it's the Senate that matters. Here's the vote records (select "Yea/Aye" in the Votes drop down):

https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/202110?Page=2
https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/202111?Page=2

I think motion 10 was against electors from AZ and 11 was against PA. Similarly for the Senate:

https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=117&session=1&vote=00001#position
https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=117&session=1&vote=00002#position

I think it's super fvcking SCARY to hear people talking about expelling democratically elected members of congress just for raising objections and voting. I drift a bit more toward Dave's position when the left talks like that. The people who should be arrested, tried, and (if found guilty) punished are the assholes who broke into the Capitol, *not* duly elected representatives following congressional rules as best they can. The left can't have the cake and eat it. Either our elections are relatively trustworthy or they're not.

The instigators like Gosar, Perry, Cruz, and Hawley deserve some blowback, maybe even expulsion. But not the others who simply voted for the objections.

On 1/6/21 3:40 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:

> Couldn't they fill some of those bland looking government buses with beer, as bait? I volunteer to drive.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
> Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 2:34 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?
>
> It would do to unseat all those engaged in today’s little display, as co-conspirators with the group outside.
>
> Gosh, Mitch, you seem to have lost the senate today by 16 seats. Had you wanted a better outcome, you might have made some different decisions (hundreds of them) systematically over the last 4 years.
>
> Now, AOC, what legislation was it that you wanted passed?
>
> Eric

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by gepr

Glen -

You seem to be closer to a hotbed of the divide in Olympia than most of
us... what with the shootings during a left/right clash there and then
the "me too's" breaching the Governor's Mansion perimeter last night.
(and I know there is plenty more)

Do you have any insight into this coming from that proximity?

- Steve

PS. I agree with what I take your point below to be, that (too) many of
us conflate "that which offends us" with "that which should be directly
actionable", this is (part of the way) we get to these absurd situations...

On 1/7/21 10:07 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> Prolly won't go anywhere. But maybe I'm cynical:
>
> https://www.commondreams.org/news/2021/01/06/progressives-back-rep-cori-bushs-resolution-expel-lawmakers-who-incited-violent
>
> Anyway, it's the Senate that matters. Here's the vote records (select "Yea/Aye" in the Votes drop down):
>
> https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/202110?Page=2
> https://clerk.house.gov/Votes/202111?Page=2
>
> I think motion 10 was against electors from AZ and 11 was against PA. Similarly for the Senate:
>
> https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=117&session=1&vote=00001#position
> https://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=117&session=1&vote=00002#position
>
>
> I think it's super fvcking SCARY to hear people talking about expelling democratically elected members of congress just for raising objections and voting. I drift a bit more toward Dave's position when the left talks like that. The people who should be arrested, tried, and (if found guilty) punished are the assholes who broke into the Capitol, *not* duly elected representatives following congressional rules as best they can. The left can't have the cake and eat it. Either our elections are relatively trustworthy or they're not.
>
> The instigators like Gosar, Perry, Cruz, and Hawley deserve some blowback, maybe even expulsion. But not the others who simply voted for the objections.
>
>
> On 1/6/21 3:40 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>> Couldn't they fill some of those bland looking government buses with beer, as bait? I volunteer to drive.
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
>> Sent: Wednesday, January 6, 2021 2:34 PM
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?
>>
>> It would do to unseat all those engaged in today’s little display, as co-conspirators with the group outside.
>>
>> Gosh, Mitch, you seem to have lost the senate today by 16 seats. Had you wanted a better outcome, you might have made some different decisions (hundreds of them) systematically over the last 4 years.
>>
>> Now, AOC, what legislation was it that you wanted passed?
>>
>> Eric
>

gepr

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

Well, below is way too many words. But you asked. >8^D According to

https://www.bestplaces.net/voting/metro/washington/olympia-tumwater

we're fairly liberal. (Compare SFe: https://www.bestplaces.net/voting/metro/new_mexico/santa_fe) But it *feels* more conservative than where we used to live in Clackamas county Oregon, which is conservative. I chalk it up to us being the capitol. I regularly get in discussions with people who are way more conservative than me... even people who sport beer steins with "Trump" on them. And being beer fans, I enjoy talking to them about beer. ... bikers also tend to be a bit more conservative than the gen pop and I enjoy talking to them about motorcycles.

All of these people I've talked to are *actually* "law and order" types ... not fake ones like Trump, but authentically seem to believe that laws passed by normal means (both regular and initiative legislation) should be followed and enforced, including supporting the impeachment process (with *no* conviction for Trump) for that Ukraine call. But it's important that I have not talked to anyone who goes to the stupid anti-mask rallies or whatever. (I do talk to the lefties who go to their rallies.)

For this reason, I was *happy* to see the Trump mob storm the DC capitol. It gives me common ground with my conservative peers. The guys we talked to last night *roundly* condemned both the DC mob and the local mob (that breached the gate around our gov's house). We all agree those guys should be prosecuted and tossed in jail. But the people waving Confederate flags outside the capitol are just fine. And they agree it's fine for me to flip them off and call them stupid as I drive by their "protest".

If I have insight at all, it is that the DC capitol mob was a *good* thing because it separates the criminals from the regular people (like I support the idiots who get swastika tattoos -- it's easier to see who's an idiot that way) ... just like separating "antifa" from (alleged criminal) Reinoehl. It's sad that the cops gave those white people in DC the benefit of the doubt (unlike the BLM people). If they'd been prepared, those 4 people might not have died. But otherwise, I refer back to people like Frantz Fannon and the *need* for catharsis, perhaps not so extreme of course.

I also support, to some extent, objections to the electoral votes *because* more light has to be shed on the undemocratic EC. If they could have simply objected once, with just the date changes made by the courts (instead of the legislature), just to make a point, then I would have thought it reasonable. I'm hoping the next time a R wins the EC but loses the pop vote, some Ds will symbolically object. Similarly, I'm glad for the Kavanaugh and ACB politicization of their nominations. SCOTUS is a partisan institution and we should doff the illusion that it's "neutral". It's a shame it has to be so painful. But we learn from pain.

On 1/7/21 9:24 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> You seem to be closer to a hotbed of the divide in Olympia than most of
> us... what with the shootings during a left/right clash there and then
> the "me too's" breaching the Governor's Mansion perimeter last night.
> (and I know there is plenty more)
>
> Do you have any insight into this coming from that proximity?

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

Clackamas county, proud home of Tonya Harding and me. Uniquely situated as a non-prosperous exurb and gateway to the hill people and conservative farmland owners. But nothing like the eastern parts of Oregon.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

Well, below is way too many words. But you asked. >8^D According to

https://www.bestplaces.net/voting/metro/washington/olympia-tumwater

we're fairly liberal. (Compare SFe: https://www.bestplaces.net/voting/metro/new_mexico/santa_fe) But it *feels* more conservative than where we used to live in Clackamas county Oregon, which is conservative. I chalk it up to us being the capitol. I regularly get in discussions with people who are way more conservative than me... even people who sport beer steins with "Trump" on them. And being beer fans, I enjoy talking to them about beer. ... bikers also tend to be a bit more conservative than the gen pop and I enjoy talking to them about motorcycles.

All of these people I've talked to are *actually* "law and order" types ... not fake ones like Trump, but authentically seem to believe that laws passed by normal means (both regular and initiative legislation) should be followed and enforced, including supporting the impeachment process (with *no* conviction for Trump) for that Ukraine call. But it's important that I have not talked to anyone who goes to the stupid anti-mask rallies or whatever. (I do talk to the lefties who go to their rallies.)

For this reason, I was *happy* to see the Trump mob storm the DC capitol. It gives me common ground with my conservative peers. The guys we talked to last night *roundly* condemned both the DC mob and the local mob (that breached the gate around our gov's house). We all agree those guys should be prosecuted and tossed in jail. But the people waving Confederate flags outside the capitol are just fine. And they agree it's fine for me to flip them off and call them stupid as I drive by their "protest".

If I have insight at all, it is that the DC capitol mob was a *good* thing because it separates the criminals from the regular people (like I support the idiots who get swastika tattoos -- it's easier to see who's an idiot that way) ... just like separating "antifa" from (alleged criminal) Reinoehl. It's sad that the cops gave those white people in DC the benefit of the doubt (unlike the BLM people). If they'd been prepared, those 4 people might not have died. But otherwise, I refer back to people like Frantz Fannon and the *need* for catharsis, perhaps not so extreme of course.

I also support, to some extent, objections to the electoral votes *because* more light has to be shed on the undemocratic EC. If they could have simply objected once, with just the date changes made by the courts (instead of the legislature), just to make a point, then I would have thought it reasonable. I'm hoping the next time a R wins the EC but loses the pop vote, some Ds will symbolically object. Similarly, I'm glad for the Kavanaugh and ACB politicization of their nominations. SCOTUS is a partisan institution and we should doff the illusion that it's "neutral". It's a shame it has to be so painful. But we learn from pain.

On 1/7/21 9:24 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> You seem to be closer to a hotbed of the divide in Olympia than most
> of us... what with the shootings during a left/right clash there and
> then the "me too's" breaching the Governor's Mansion perimeter last night.
> (and I know there is plenty more)
>
> Do you have any insight into this coming from that proximity?

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by gepr

Well, below is way too many words. But you asked. >8^D

I do appreciate it. A pithy one-liner is often more entertaining and easier to swallow in one gulp (if not digest, thus pithy?), but less satisfying.

"enough is too much, but that is just right"

What you describe here is perhaps the more generous way of interpreting what I accuse of myself in "morbid fascination"... I'd often rather have the ugly bad news early and start dealing with it, rather than continuing a farce... or maybe more to the point, after having participated in farce/denial for a while I'd perhaps rather go ahead and rip the bandaid off and try healing the wound in the fresh air and sunlight for a while.

According to

https://www.bestplaces.net/voting/metro/washington/olympia-tumwater

we're fairly liberal. (Compare SFe: https://www.bestplaces.net/voting/metro/new_mexico/santa_fe) But it *feels* more conservative than where we used to live in Clackamas county Oregon, which is conservative. I chalk it up to us being the capitol. I regularly get in discussions with people who are way more conservative than me... even people who sport beer steins with "Trump" on them. And being beer fans, I enjoy talking to them about beer. ... bikers also tend to be a bit more conservative than the gen pop and I enjoy talking to them about motorcycles.

All of these people I've talked to are *actually* "law and order" types ... not fake ones like Trump, but authentically seem to believe that laws passed by normal means (both regular and initiative legislation) should be followed and enforced, including supporting the impeachment process (with *no* conviction for Trump) for that Ukraine call. But it's important that I have not talked to anyone who goes to the stupid anti-mask rallies or whatever. (I do talk to the lefties who go to their rallies.)

For this reason, I was *happy* to see the Trump mob storm the DC capitol. It gives me common ground with my conservative peers. The guys we talked to last night *roundly* condemned both the DC mob and the local mob (that breached the gate around our gov's house). We all agree those guys should be prosecuted and tossed in jail. But the people waving Confederate flags outside the capitol are just fine. And they agree it's fine for me to flip them off and call them stupid as I drive by their "protest".

If I have insight at all, it is that the DC capitol mob was a *good* thing because it separates the criminals from the regular people (like I support the idiots who get swastika tattoos -- it's easier to see who's an idiot that way) ... just like separating "antifa" from (alleged criminal) Reinoehl. It's sad that the cops gave those white people in DC the benefit of the doubt (unlike the BLM people). If they'd been prepared, those 4 people might not have died. But otherwise, I refer back to people like Frantz Fannon and the *need* for catharsis, perhaps not so extreme of course.

I also support, to some extent, objections to the electoral votes *because* more light has to be shed on the undemocratic EC. If they could have simply objected once, with just the date changes made by the courts (instead of the legislature), just to make a point, then I would have thought it reasonable. I'm hoping the next time a R wins the EC but loses the pop vote, some Ds will symbolically object. Similarly, I'm glad for the Kavanaugh and ACB politicization of their nominations. SCOTUS is a partisan institution and we should doff the illusion that it's "neutral". It's a shame it has to be so painful. But we learn from pain.

On 1/7/21 9:24 AM, Steve Smith wrote:

You seem to be closer to a hotbed of the divide in Olympia than most of
us...  what with the shootings during a left/right clash there and then
the "me too's" breaching the Governor's Mansion perimeter last night.
(and I know there is plenty more)

Do you have any insight into this coming from that proximity?

gepr

Re: Tangled up in our own 2nd Amendment? Bleak Lives Manner?

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Yeah, I'm in the middle of an argument with one of my conservative friends here about guns. I claimed last night that, as I've said on this list before, that *material cause* is a valid target for action. I.e. guns *do* cause death even if efficient cause is more obvious. He trotted out the old saw that it's not feasible in the US. I mentioned that a bill was just introduced in Olympia that would ban guns at capitol grounds protests. It's not only feasible, it's being done right now, right here. He then responded that people will simply conceal them. Rather than go down the tangent about concealing rifles (many of the anti-mask protesters bring their rifles to the protests), I simply said that's fine if they conceal them. [⛧] If you look at the only hard data we have on guns, i.e. the concealed carry licensing, at *max* 50% of gun owners have gotten their CCLs in Oregon (I don't know about WA). He mistook me to mean that exactly 50% have a CCL and challenged my numbers. Again, rather than argue, I simply said I'd check the numbers again and get back to him.

Well, I was surprised to learn that Clackastan may be relatively low in CCL density:

https://projects.oregonlive.com/ucc-shooting/oregon-gun-ownership

at least compared to Grant, Union, Baker, etc.

[⛧] Even if non-CCL owners then conceal their handguns at capitol protests, that's still a mechanism by which to identify and prosecute them, perhaps giving us a way to seize all the guns from the idiots among us and prevent them from ever legally buying any more guns. So, it helps treat the disease either way. And, frankly, I'm less concerned about concealed weapons anyway. It's the "wearing your violence on your sleeve" with your rifle that or your gun strap that's really the problem. The open carry idiots remind me of Otto from a Fish Called Wanda.

On 1/7/21 10:47 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Clackamas county, proud home of Tonya Harding and me. Uniquely situated as a non-prosperous exurb and gateway to the hill people and conservative farmland owners. But nothing like the eastern parts of Oregon.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen