Friam

"certain codes of conduct"

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thompnickson2

"certain codes of conduct"

Merle:

Your generation may not be able to tackle the article with an open mind, but I suggest that we need to pay close attention.

I take it you mean “our” generation, right?

I assume that you mean by racist that these “codes of conduct” unfairly advantage some racial/ethnic group at the expense of others. I assume that that is what you mean by racist. I assume you don’t mean that there will be no “codes of conduct” in a post-racist world. But any code of conduct is a constraint, and thus disadvantages somebody for whom that constraint is, well, a constraint.

When I was young, I used to write books. Now I am old, I just write book titles. I am thinking of a book entitled, Who is this old White guy, and why should I pay attention to him? It’s a book about Strunk and White’s Elements of Style. Now there’s a code of conduct if ever I saw one! What does Strunk and White look like in a post racial world? You cannot imagine a world without style guides anymore than you can imagine a highway without rules of the road, right? So what does Strunk and Brown look like? Trust me. Those aren’t rhetorical questions. I really want to know.

But yes, I will read the article.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gelotophilia

Sorry, Steve, to be a bit off topic here, but your reference to "certain codes of personal conduct" emerging from institutions of "higher education" are now considered racist. And I suggest that the list take a look at this amazing piece in a recent NYTimes titled "Whiteness Lessons". Your generation may not be able to tackle the article with an open mind, but I suggest that we need to pay close attention.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/magazine/white-fragility-robin-diangelo.html

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:58 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

As I read the interchange about GPT-3 and the Chinese room, I was drawn off into side-musings which were finally polyped off to a pure tangent (in my head) when DougC and NickT exchanged:
NLT> Dog do joy; why not computers?
DC> dog is highly interconnected - hormones, nerves, senses, and environment. neurons are not binary . every synapse is an infinite state variable.
While Joy and humor are not identical, there is some positive correlation.   Poking around, I was only mildly surprised to find that there was a body of literature and in fact international organizations and conferences on humor (not mimes or clowns or stand up comedians, but real scholars studying the former as well as regular people).   I was looking for the physiological complexes implied by humor or joy.   I haven't (yet) found as much on the topic as I would like, maybe because I got sidelined reading about 2 neologisms (ca 2007) and a related ancient (Greek) term:   Gelotophobia, Gelotophilia, and Katagelasticism.   My limited Italian and Spanish had me reading it as "Gelato" or "Helado" which translates roughly into our own "Ice Cream", though the ingredients differ toward less rich technically.
Their meanings, however are roughly: Fear of being laughed at; Love of being laughed at; and the Pleasure of laughing at others.     These are apparently more than the usual discomfort or warm feelings we might get from being laughed at, or from laughing at others, but a more deep and acute sense of it.
https://www.wired.com/2011/07/international-humor-conference/
https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/14037/1/Ruch_Proyer_PhoPhiKat_V.pdf
Part of why I bring it up on this list is because as I study myself and others as we exchange our ideas, observations, and occasional (un)pleasantries, I am fascinated by the intersection between (convolution amongsT?) personal styles and perhaps more formal "training" each of us might have learned from our parents, among our peers, by our teachers, our workplaces, possibly professional organizations, etc.
It appears to me that institutions of higher education enforce/impose a certain code of personal conduct first on their participants (undergrads, grads, postdocs, staff, faculty) which is a microcosm of the larger world. White Collar and Blue Collar contexts are also similarly dissimilar, and within those, a cube-farm of programmer-geeks and a bullpen of writers, and a trading floor of traders (all white collar, taking their showers at the beginning of the day) have a wide spectrum while blue collar workers (taking their showers at the end of the day) do as well.   Construction crews, oilfield roughnecks, cowboys, farmhands, etc.   each have their own myriad ways of interacting... sometimes *requiring* a level of mocking to feel connected, etc. There may also be a strong generational component... as we cross roughly 3 generations. Greatest/Boomers/X/Millenials/Zoomers/??? and all the cusps between.
But what I was most interested in is related to the original discussion which is what is the extended physiological response to humor, joy, mockery that a human (or animal?) may have which a synthetic being would need to be designed to include.   Perhaps a properly broadly conceived General Artificial Intelligence would ultimately include all of this as well, and as deep learning evolves, it seems that there is no reason that a GI couldn't simulate the physiological feedback loops that drive and regulate some aspects of humore?
- Steve
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

gepr

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

I think the Atlantic article is objectively *better* than the NYT article Merle posted.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/

On 7/28/20 12:26 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> But yes, I will read the article.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick, I didn't "assume" anything. It's this article that does much more than "assume" --and virtually all old white people (who are all privileged merely by being white) are absolutely tone deaf about the underbelly of what's happening in America. I am old and white but not tone deaf (because of my profession), and I have always known--and acknowledged--that I am racist because I grew up in the U.S. surrounded by institutions continuously perpetuating the original racism of the creators, although an occasional few "woke" white people tried their best to turn things around.

I can't believe you suggest that participants in "higher education" are a microcosm of the wider world. Did you mean that?

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 12:27 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Merle:

Your generation may not be able to tackle the article with an open mind, but I suggest that we need to pay close attention.

I take it you mean “our” generation, right?

I assume that you mean by racist that these “codes of conduct” unfairly advantage some racial/ethnic group at the expense of others. I assume that that is what you mean by racist. I assume you don’t mean that there will be no “codes of conduct” in a post-racist world. But any code of conduct is a constraint, and thus disadvantages somebody for whom that constraint is, well, a constraint.

When I was young, I used to write books. Now I am old, I just write book titles. I am thinking of a book entitled, Who is this old White guy, and why should I pay attention to him? It’s a book about Strunk and White’s Elements of Style. Now there’s a code of conduct if ever I saw one! What does Strunk and White look like in a post racial world? You cannot imagine a world without style guides anymore than you can imagine a highway without rules of the road, right? So what does Strunk and Brown look like? Trust me. Those aren’t rhetorical questions. I really want to know.

But yes, I will read the article.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gelotophilia

Sorry, Steve, to be a bit off topic here, but your reference to "certain codes of personal conduct" emerging from institutions of "higher education" are now considered racist. And I suggest that the list take a look at this amazing piece in a recent NYTimes titled "Whiteness Lessons". Your generation may not be able to tackle the article with an open mind, but I suggest that we need to pay close attention.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/magazine/white-fragility-robin-diangelo.html

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:58 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
As I read the interchange about GPT-3 and the Chinese room, I was drawn off into side-musings which were finally polyped off to a pure tangent (in my head) when DougC and NickT exchanged:
NLT> Dog do joy; why not computers?
DC> dog is highly interconnected - hormones, nerves, senses, and environment. neurons are not binary . every synapse is an infinite state variable.
While Joy and humor are not identical, there is some positive correlation.   Poking around, I was only mildly surprised to find that there was a body of literature and in fact international organizations and conferences on humor (not mimes or clowns or stand up comedians, but real scholars studying the former as well as regular people).   I was looking for the physiological complexes implied by humor or joy.   I haven't (yet) found as much on the topic as I would like, maybe because I got sidelined reading about 2 neologisms (ca 2007) and a related ancient (Greek) term:   Gelotophobia, Gelotophilia, and Katagelasticism.   My limited Italian and Spanish had me reading it as "Gelato" or "Helado" which translates roughly into our own "Ice Cream", though the ingredients differ toward less rich technically.
Their meanings, however are roughly: Fear of being laughed at; Love of being laughed at; and the Pleasure of laughing at others.     These are apparently more than the usual discomfort or warm feelings we might get from being laughed at, or from laughing at others, but a more deep and acute sense of it.
https://www.wired.com/2011/07/international-humor-conference/
https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/14037/1/Ruch_Proyer_PhoPhiKat_V.pdf
Part of why I bring it up on this list is because as I study myself and others as we exchange our ideas, observations, and occasional (un)pleasantries, I am fascinated by the intersection between (convolution amongsT?) personal styles and perhaps more formal "training" each of us might have learned from our parents, among our peers, by our teachers, our workplaces, possibly professional organizations, etc.
It appears to me that institutions of higher education enforce/impose a certain code of personal conduct first on their participants (undergrads, grads, postdocs, staff, faculty) which is a microcosm of the larger world. White Collar and Blue Collar contexts are also similarly dissimilar, and within those, a cube-farm of programmer-geeks and a bullpen of writers, and a trading floor of traders (all white collar, taking their showers at the beginning of the day) have a wide spectrum while blue collar workers (taking their showers at the end of the day) do as well.   Construction crews, oilfield roughnecks, cowboys, farmhands, etc.   each have their own myriad ways of interacting... sometimes *requiring* a level of mocking to feel connected, etc. There may also be a strong generational component... as we cross roughly 3 generations. Greatest/Boomers/X/Millenials/Zoomers/??? and all the cusps between.
But what I was most interested in is related to the original discussion which is what is the extended physiological response to humor, joy, mockery that a human (or animal?) may have which a synthetic being would need to be designed to include.   Perhaps a properly broadly conceived General Artificial Intelligence would ultimately include all of this as well, and as deep learning evolves, it seems that there is no reason that a GI couldn't simulate the physiological feedback loops that drive and regulate some aspects of humore?
- Steve
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

In reply to this post by gepr

Of course you would think that! This article makes you feel more comfortable, the intention no doubt of a Black college professor who is doing what needs to be done to make it in a White world.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 12:51 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:

I think the Atlantic article is objectively *better* than the NYT article Merle posted.

https://www.theatlantic.com/ideas/archive/2020/07/dehumanizing-condescension-white-fragility/614146/

On 7/28/20 12:26 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> But yes, I will read the article.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

gepr

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

Ha! No, it doesn't make me feel more comfortable. It does fit my style of thinking, though, which is criticism/critical. The NYT article was all choir. There was no Adversary in that article. It also fits my understanding of embodied cognition. Engagement is how we're defined, not abstractions like reading a book or being lectured by a lecturer.

As I've argued plenty, humiliation is an effective tool. DiAngelo is GREAT at humiliating her white audience. And that's a good thing. Negative reinforcement works, despite what people might think. But McWhorter's position highlights the alternative. And having 2 ways of looking at an issue is better than having 1 way of looking at it.

On 7/28/20 12:57 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
> Of course you would think that! This article makes you feel more comfortable, the intention no doubt of a Black college professor who is doing what needs to be done to make it in a White world.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

agreed

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 1:03 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ha! No, it doesn't make me feel more comfortable. It does fit my style of thinking, though, which is criticism/critical. The NYT article was all choir. There was no Adversary in that article. It also fits my understanding of embodied cognition. Engagement is how we're defined, not abstractions like reading a book or being lectured by a lecturer.

As I've argued plenty, humiliation is an effective tool. DiAngelo is GREAT at humiliating her white audience. And that's a good thing. Negative reinforcement works, despite what people might think. But McWhorter's position highlights the alternative. And having 2 ways of looking at an issue is better than having 1 way of looking at it.

On 7/28/20 12:57 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
> Of course you would think that! This article makes you feel more comfortable, the intention no doubt of a Black college professor who is doing what needs to be done to make it in a White world.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

thompnickson2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2

Merle,

I meant only that Freshman writing courses are a place where we are likely to encounter institutional racism, and I am looking for ideas about what to do about that, given that I am inclined to hang onto some notion that expository writing can, and should, be taught.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:55 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "certain codes of conduct"

I can't believe you suggest that participants in "higher education" are a microcosm of the wider world. Did you mean that?

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 12:27 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Merle:

Your generation may not be able to tackle the article with an open mind, but I suggest that we need to pay close attention.

I take it you mean “our” generation, right?

I assume that you mean by racist that these “codes of conduct” unfairly advantage some racial/ethnic group at the expense of others. I assume that that is what you mean by racist. I assume you don’t mean that there will be no “codes of conduct” in a post-racist world. But any code of conduct is a constraint, and thus disadvantages somebody for whom that constraint is, well, a constraint.

When I was young, I used to write books. Now I am old, I just write book titles. I am thinking of a book entitled, Who is this old White guy, and why should I pay attention to him? It’s a book about Strunk and White’s Elements of Style. Now there’s a code of conduct if ever I saw one! What does Strunk and White look like in a post racial world? You cannot imagine a world without style guides anymore than you can imagine a highway without rules of the road, right? So what does Strunk and Brown look like? Trust me. Those aren’t rhetorical questions. I really want to know.

But yes, I will read the article.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Merle Lefkoff
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 1:01 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] gelotophilia

Sorry, Steve, to be a bit off topic here, but your reference to "certain codes of personal conduct" emerging from institutions of "higher education" are now considered racist. And I suggest that the list take a look at this amazing piece in a recent NYTimes titled "Whiteness Lessons". Your generation may not be able to tackle the article with an open mind, but I suggest that we need to pay close attention.

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/15/magazine/white-fragility-robin-diangelo.html

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:58 AM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
As I read the interchange about GPT-3 and the Chinese room, I was drawn off into side-musings which were finally polyped off to a pure tangent (in my head) when DougC and NickT exchanged:
NLT> Dog do joy; why not computers?
DC> dog is highly interconnected - hormones, nerves, senses, and environment. neurons are not binary . every synapse is an infinite state variable.
While Joy and humor are not identical, there is some positive correlation.   Poking around, I was only mildly surprised to find that there was a body of literature and in fact international organizations and conferences on humor (not mimes or clowns or stand up comedians, but real scholars studying the former as well as regular people).   I was looking for the physiological complexes implied by humor or joy.   I haven't (yet) found as much on the topic as I would like, maybe because I got sidelined reading about 2 neologisms (ca 2007) and a related ancient (Greek) term:   Gelotophobia, Gelotophilia, and Katagelasticism.   My limited Italian and Spanish had me reading it as "Gelato" or "Helado" which translates roughly into our own "Ice Cream", though the ingredients differ toward less rich technically.
Their meanings, however are roughly: Fear of being laughed at; Love of being laughed at; and the Pleasure of laughing at others.     These are apparently more than the usual discomfort or warm feelings we might get from being laughed at, or from laughing at others, but a more deep and acute sense of it.
https://www.wired.com/2011/07/international-humor-conference/
https://www.zora.uzh.ch/id/eprint/14037/1/Ruch_Proyer_PhoPhiKat_V.pdf
Part of why I bring it up on this list is because as I study myself and others as we exchange our ideas, observations, and occasional (un)pleasantries, I am fascinated by the intersection between (convolution amongsT?) personal styles and perhaps more formal "training" each of us might have learned from our parents, among our peers, by our teachers, our workplaces, possibly professional organizations, etc.
It appears to me that institutions of higher education enforce/impose a certain code of personal conduct first on their participants (undergrads, grads, postdocs, staff, faculty) which is a microcosm of the larger world. White Collar and Blue Collar contexts are also similarly dissimilar, and within those, a cube-farm of programmer-geeks and a bullpen of writers, and a trading floor of traders (all white collar, taking their showers at the beginning of the day) have a wide spectrum while blue collar workers (taking their showers at the end of the day) do as well.   Construction crews, oilfield roughnecks, cowboys, farmhands, etc.   each have their own myriad ways of interacting... sometimes *requiring* a level of mocking to feel connected, etc. There may also be a strong generational component... as we cross roughly 3 generations. Greatest/Boomers/X/Millenials/Zoomers/??? and all the cusps between.
But what I was most interested in is related to the original discussion which is what is the extended physiological response to humor, joy, mockery that a human (or animal?) may have which a synthetic being would need to be designed to include.   Perhaps a properly broadly conceived General Artificial Intelligence would ultimately include all of this as well, and as deep learning evolves, it seems that there is no reason that a GI couldn't simulate the physiological feedback loops that drive and regulate some aspects of humore?
- Steve
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

I'm trying to remember my freshman English class. Every other Friday we had to submit a five hundred word essay on the class readings. On alternate Fridays we had to write an in-class paragraph or two on those readings. The readings included the following:

Catcher in the Rye by Salinger

Victory by Conrad

The Republic by Plato

All the King's Men by Warren

Brave New World by Huxley

Numerous essays on personal integrity by various authors.

I don't see that any of those had to do with unconscious racism or implicit bias unless the personal integrity essays did. I think I had to read The Invisible Man by Ellison but that may have been in a later year in a political science or US history class at Berkeley.

All this was 54 years ago.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

Eric Charles-2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

Nick, Frank, et al,

I'm not a fan of this line of thinking, but i know how to hum a few bars ----------------------------------------------

Frank said: " I don't see that any of those had to do with unconscious racism or implicit bias"

Ignoring the content of the reading entirely (because that's a different discussion): Were you graded for grammar, syntax, good writing, and the like?

If so, was the syntax and grammar used in your household and your general community considered acceptable?

Would those who grew up in different households and communities be thereby disadvantaged? Communities where ending sentences in prepositions was normal? Or dropping the verb "to be"?

Would your 500 word essay have been acceptable if you were talking about how "Children in rye fields need catched. Holden wants do that. Hard."?

Why is that acceptable when spoken within the community that student comes from, but not acceptable when written in college? I'll tell you why! It is because college is a tool of cultural imperialism. Those English classes are one of many ways we systematically make things harder for those who are already disadvantaged and marginalized in society, while giving a leg up to those already advantaged and centered in society. We shouldn't put up with that crap any longer. We should equally value the contributions from those other perfectly valid cultures. If the student summarized the book, they summarized the book.

You need to understand: A college degrees is, first and foremost, a symbolic accomplishment essential to get ahead in current society. By making degree-attainment require that people conform to the cultural trappings of the already dominant group, you are institutionalizing the preexisting power structure and further mentally brutalizing the already-oppressed. You are telling them that who they are and where they come from isn't good enough. It is no different than imperial Britain looking down upon those who couldn't speak "The King's English", and effectively barring them from having successful lives in the colonies where their ancestors had lived for generations. Stop doing it. Examine every thought you have about how to teach. Be better.

--------------------------------------------- that's how the argument goes anyway.

[hidden email]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:03 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm trying to remember my freshman English class. Every other Friday we had to submit a five hundred word essay on the class readings. On alternate Fridays we had to write an in-class paragraph or two on those readings. The readings included the following:

Catcher in the Rye by Salinger
Victory by Conrad
The Republic by Plato
All the King's Men by Warren
Brave New World by Huxley

Numerous essays on personal integrity by various authors.

I don't see that any of those had to do with unconscious racism or implicit bias unless the personal integrity essays did. I think I had to read The Invisible Man by Ellison but that may have been in a later year in a political science or US history class at Berkeley.

All this was 54 years ago.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
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Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Clearly the implicit bias is that all of these reading requirements were written by White men. In an attempt to redress this problem I have noticed lately that the NY Times book review seems to be bending over backwards to review books written by women of color.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 7:03 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

I'm trying to remember my freshman English class. Every other Friday we had to submit a five hundred word essay on the class readings. On alternate Fridays we had to write an in-class paragraph or two on those readings. The readings included the following:

Catcher in the Rye by Salinger
Victory by Conrad
The Republic by Plato
All the King's Men by Warren
Brave New World by Huxley

Numerous essays on personal integrity by various authors.

I don't see that any of those had to do with unconscious racism or implicit bias unless the personal integrity essays did. I think I had to read The Invisible Man by Ellison but that may have been in a later year in a political science or US history class at Berkeley.

All this was 54 years ago.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

In reply to this post by Eric Charles-2

There were a couple dozen sections of English taught to the Engineering and Science freshmen at Carnegie Mellon (then Carnegie Tech). Each was led by a professor of some rank. The essays were graded by TA's, who were graduate students in English. I suspect that grammar and punctuation were marked if incorrect but I doubt that that had much effect on the grade given to the paper. I do remember my rather senior English professor said as he was handing back one set of papers, "Despite our telling them that they should grade your papers based on the strength and coherence of your argument, they may give you a grade based on whether they agree with you or not because they still think they know something. But rest assured that the final papers at the end of the semester will be graded by faculty and won't be subject to such biases as much."

Upon reflection I don't think there were any African Americans in my classes but there were a few Latinx students and a number of Asians. When I was on the faculty there 20 or so years later there were many African Americans (> say 5%) and among the graduate students large numbers of Asians, Middle Easterners, etc. I never taught undergraduates. I don't think that data contradicts anything you said EricC.

Frank

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 8:45 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick, Frank, et al,

I'm not a fan of this line of thinking, but i know how to hum a few bars ----------------------------------------------

Frank said: " I don't see that any of those had to do with unconscious racism or implicit bias"

Ignoring the content of the reading entirely (because that's a different discussion): Were you graded for grammar, syntax, good writing, and the like?

If so, was the syntax and grammar used in your household and your general community considered acceptable?

Would those who grew up in different households and communities be thereby disadvantaged? Communities where ending sentences in prepositions was normal? Or dropping the verb "to be"?

Would your 500 word essay have been acceptable if you were talking about how "Children in rye fields need catched. Holden wants do that. Hard."?

Why is that acceptable when spoken within the community that student comes from, but not acceptable when written in college? I'll tell you why! It is because college is a tool of cultural imperialism. Those English classes are one of many ways we systematically make things harder for those who are already disadvantaged and marginalized in society, while giving a leg up to those already advantaged and centered in society. We shouldn't put up with that crap any longer. We should equally value the contributions from those other perfectly valid cultures. If the student summarized the book, they summarized the book.

You need to understand: A college degrees is, first and foremost, a symbolic accomplishment essential to get ahead in current society. By making degree-attainment require that people conform to the cultural trappings of the already dominant group, you are institutionalizing the preexisting power structure and further mentally brutalizing the already-oppressed. You are telling them that who they are and where they come from isn't good enough. It is no different than imperial Britain looking down upon those who couldn't speak "The King's English", and effectively barring them from having successful lives in the colonies where their ancestors had lived for generations. Stop doing it. Examine every thought you have about how to teach. Be better.

--------------------------------------------- that's how the argument goes anyway.

[hidden email]

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 10:03 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm trying to remember my freshman English class. Every other Friday we had to submit a five hundred word essay on the class readings. On alternate Fridays we had to write an in-class paragraph or two on those readings. The readings included the following:

Catcher in the Rye by Salinger
Victory by Conrad
The Republic by Plato
All the King's Men by Warren
Brave New World by Huxley

Numerous essays on personal integrity by various authors.

I don't see that any of those had to do with unconscious racism or implicit bias unless the personal integrity essays did. I think I had to read The Invisible Man by Ellison but that may have been in a later year in a political science or US history class at Berkeley.

All this was 54 years ago.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Merle Lefkoff-2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2

And why, O Eric of a deep understanding, are you not a fan?

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 8:17 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Clearly the implicit bias is that all of these reading requirements were written by White men. In an attempt to redress this problem I have noticed lately that the NY Times book review seems to be bending over backwards to review books written by women of color.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 7:03 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm trying to remember my freshman English class. Every other Friday we had to submit a five hundred word essay on the class readings. On alternate Fridays we had to write an in-class paragraph or two on those readings. The readings included the following:

Catcher in the Rye by Salinger
Victory by Conrad
The Republic by Plato
All the King's Men by Warren
Brave New World by Huxley

Numerous essays on personal integrity by various authors.

I don't see that any of those had to do with unconscious racism or implicit bias unless the personal integrity essays did. I think I had to read The Invisible Man by Ellison but that may have been in a later year in a political science or US history class at Berkeley.

All this was 54 years ago.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
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--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org

Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2

twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2

Not The Invisible Man.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 9:17 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Clearly the implicit bias is that all of these reading requirements were written by White men. In an attempt to redress this problem I have noticed lately that the NY Times book review seems to be bending over backwards to review books written by women of color.

On Tue, Jul 28, 2020 at 7:03 PM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:
I'm trying to remember my freshman English class. Every other Friday we had to submit a five hundred word essay on the class readings. On alternate Fridays we had to write an in-class paragraph or two on those readings. The readings included the following:

Catcher in the Rye by Salinger
Victory by Conrad
The Republic by Plato
All the King's Men by Warren
Brave New World by Huxley

Numerous essays on personal integrity by various authors.

I don't see that any of those had to do with unconscious racism or implicit bias unless the personal integrity essays did. I think I had to read The Invisible Man by Ellison but that may have been in a later year in a political science or US history class at Berkeley.

All this was 54 years ago.

Frank

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

--
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
Center for Emergent Diplomacy
emergentdiplomacy.org
Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA

mobile: (303) 859-5609
skype: merle.lelfkoff2
twitter: @Merle_Lefkoff
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

thompnickson2

Re: "certain codes of conduct"

In reply to this post by Eric Charles-2

Thanks, Eric,

From the point of view of This Old White Male, you lay the argument out pretty exactly. Including the part at the end where we all open up our middle shirt button and start contemplating our navels. I would REALLY like to get beyond that. Do we identify different communities of linguistic and discursive practice and hire our “English” department from them? Do have a section of every writing course in which we demonstrate our competence in speaking and writing “black” English?

Nobody has responded yet to my idea of a National Discrimination Observatory, whose job is to identify systematic disadvantaging of any type and a redistributive taxation code that counters the that disadvantage. The idea is that there will always be invidious assignments in any society based on one or another silly criteria and the important thing is to see that they don’t get reinforced by economic consequences. Soon the disadvantaged people will be heard to say, “Yes, I may have attached earlobes, but with the tax refund I got yesterday, I am making more than you are.”

I know, Glen. Only a fundamentalist Liberal like myself could even conceive of such an idea.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Eric Charles
Sent: Tuesday, July 28, 2020 8:45 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "certain codes of conduct"