Nick, Everything you need to know, easily unassimilable, at wikipedia: I must disagree, in part with glen's characterization. Yes, they most definitely are heuristics, good and useful heuristics. They are not nonsense syllables. In their original construction they are dated - to a time when all programming consisted of making procedural assertions - instructions to the machine to do X, X being a procedure. In that context they did improve code quality dramatically be allowing procedures to be grouped into modules, that enhanced code readability, localizing errors (somewhat), etc. When alternative programming paradigms — logic, database store/retrieve, and currently functional — took center stage, the concepts lost some of their applicability. BUT, they are still evident and still relevant whenever design decisions are made as to what is done where and when and in company of what. Whether grand architectures of families of programs or definition of micro-services. [The following sentence is just to annoy glen and jon, who, I believe, are enamored of functional programming.] Of course, personally, I think all of this is nonsense and that the only criteria that should be used to decompose complex systems or to design programming modules, is behavior. [End trolling] But, vis-a-vis the biological discussion in progress, I do think there are some potential valuable insights that might be gleaned from coupling and cohesion (and the associated typology of each) as metaphors or conceptual constructs. When we look at any complex or complicated system, it is difficult if not impossible to comprehend it as a whole and we are forced to decompose that system into subsystems. This is a form of modularization. Obviously, some decompositions will be be more efficacious than others, and it is always fair to ask if we have decomposed well. (How robust is our zombie-hood?) Are: moduleA (dove itchy breast phenomenon); moduleB (dove hatching / reproduction phenomenon); moduleC (bird eating yellow seeds behavior); moduleD (bird's reproductive success rate); the 'correct' modules? Are they autonomous? If we investigated the "cohesiveness" of each module would be find it to be reasonable? How about coupling among modules that challenges their autonomy? davew On Mon, Aug 17, 2020, at 9:23 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
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I agree completely. But FP also agrees. So it's unclear to me why you think anyone enamored of it would disagree. I think it's fair to say that the whole point of FP is to make focusing on behavior a *safe* thing to do. But to be clear, I'm not enamored with FP. It's a tool like any other, apt in some circumstances, abusive in others. Those who would trade expressiveness for safety deserve neither.
On 8/17/20 7:36 PM, Prof David West wrote: > *[The following sentence is just to annoy glen and jon, who, I believe, are enamored of functional programming.]* > > /Of course, personally, I think all of this is nonsense and that the only criteria that should be used to decompose complex systems or to design programming modules, is //_behavior_//./ > > *[End trolling]* -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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probably because I misunderstand functional programming.
Much more interesting question would be your opinion of using coupling/cohesion typologies as metaphors in realms outside of programming. davew On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 8:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > I agree completely. But FP also agrees. So it's unclear to me why you > think anyone enamored of it would disagree. I think it's fair to say > that the whole point of FP is to make focusing on behavior a *safe* > thing to do. But to be clear, I'm not enamored with FP. It's a tool > like any other, apt in some circumstances, abusive in others. Those who > would trade expressiveness for safety deserve neither. > > On 8/17/20 7:36 PM, Prof David West wrote: > > *[The following sentence is just to annoy glen and jon, who, I believe, are enamored of functional programming.]* > > > > /Of course, personally, I think all of this is nonsense and that the only criteria that should be used to decompose complex systems or to design programming modules, is //_behavior_//./ > > > > *[End trolling]* > > -- > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Dave, Yes. ENGINEERING LIFE: What I learned about living from being a programmer. Knopf. New York. 2021. 227 pp. $45.00 Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 9:24 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!" probably because I misunderstand functional programming. Much more interesting question would be your opinion of using coupling/cohesion typologies as metaphors in realms outside of programming. davew On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 8:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > I agree completely. But FP also agrees. So it's unclear to me why you > think anyone enamored of it would disagree. I think it's fair to say > that the whole point of FP is to make focusing on behavior a *safe* > thing to do. But to be clear, I'm not enamored with FP. It's a tool > like any other, apt in some circumstances, abusive in others. Those > who would trade expressiveness for safety deserve neither. > > On 8/17/20 7:36 PM, Prof David West wrote: > > *[The following sentence is just to annoy glen and jon, who, I > > believe, are enamored of functional programming.]* > > > > /Of course, personally, I think all of this is nonsense and that the > > only criteria that should be used to decompose complex systems or to > > design programming modules, is //_behavior_//./ > > > > *[End trolling]* > > -- > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn > GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
I can't find the book. who is the author? Tried google with quotes around title, it gives no results. without quotes it gives me a long list of irrelevant items.
davew On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 10:17 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > > Dave, > > Yes. > > ENGINEERING LIFE: What I learned about living from being a programmer. > Knopf. New York. 2021. 227 pp. $45.00 > > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > Clark University > [hidden email] > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 9:24 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!" > > probably because I misunderstand functional programming. > > Much more interesting question would be your opinion of using > coupling/cohesion typologies as metaphors in realms outside of > programming. > > davew > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 8:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > > I agree completely. But FP also agrees. So it's unclear to me why you > > think anyone enamored of it would disagree. I think it's fair to say > > that the whole point of FP is to make focusing on behavior a *safe* > > thing to do. But to be clear, I'm not enamored with FP. It's a tool > > like any other, apt in some circumstances, abusive in others. Those > > who would trade expressiveness for safety deserve neither. > > > > On 8/17/20 7:36 PM, Prof David West wrote: > > > *[The following sentence is just to annoy glen and jon, who, I > > > believe, are enamored of functional programming.]* > > > > > > /Of course, personally, I think all of this is nonsense and that the > > > only criteria that should be used to decompose complex systems or to > > > design programming modules, is //_behavior_//./ > > > > > > *[End trolling]* > > > > -- > > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn > > GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
You are the author! Or may be Glen. Or maybe all you wizards. An edited volume!
Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 10:29 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!" I can't find the book. who is the author? Tried google with quotes around title, it gives no results. without quotes it gives me a long list of irrelevant items. davew On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 10:17 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > > Dave, > > Yes. > > ENGINEERING LIFE: What I learned about living from being a programmer. > Knopf. New York. 2021. 227 pp. $45.00 > > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University > [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 9:24 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!" > > probably because I misunderstand functional programming. > > Much more interesting question would be your opinion of using > coupling/cohesion typologies as metaphors in realms outside of > programming. > > davew > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 8:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > > I agree completely. But FP also agrees. So it's unclear to me why you > > think anyone enamored of it would disagree. I think it's fair to say > > that the whole point of FP is to make focusing on behavior a *safe* > > thing to do. But to be clear, I'm not enamored with FP. It's a tool > > like any other, apt in some circumstances, abusive in others. Those > > who would trade expressiveness for safety deserve neither. > > > > On 8/17/20 7:36 PM, Prof David West wrote: > > > *[The following sentence is just to annoy glen and jon, who, I > > > believe, are enamored of functional programming.]* > > > > > > /Of course, personally, I think all of this is nonsense and that the > > > only criteria that should be used to decompose complex systems or to > > > design programming modules, is //_behavior_//./ > > > > > > *[End trolling]* > > > > -- > > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn > > GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
clever
On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 10:33 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > You are the author! Or may be Glen. Or maybe all you wizards. An edited volume! > > Nick > > Nicholas Thompson > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology > Clark University > [hidden email] > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 10:29 AM > To: [hidden email] > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!" > > I can't find the book. who is the author? Tried google with quotes > around title, it gives no results. without quotes it gives me a long > list of irrelevant items. > > davew > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 10:17 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > > > > Dave, > > > > Yes. > > > > ENGINEERING LIFE: What I learned about living from being a programmer. > > Knopf. New York. 2021. 227 pp. $45.00 > > > > > > Nicholas Thompson > > Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University > > [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ > > > > > > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West > > Sent: Tuesday, August 18, 2020 9:24 AM > > To: [hidden email] > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] "Brown eggs are local eggs and local eggs are FRESH!" > > > > probably because I misunderstand functional programming. > > > > Much more interesting question would be your opinion of using > > coupling/cohesion typologies as metaphors in realms outside of > > programming. > > > > davew > > > > On Tue, Aug 18, 2020, at 8:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > > > I agree completely. But FP also agrees. So it's unclear to me why you > > > think anyone enamored of it would disagree. I think it's fair to say > > > that the whole point of FP is to make focusing on behavior a *safe* > > > thing to do. But to be clear, I'm not enamored with FP. It's a tool > > > like any other, apt in some circumstances, abusive in others. Those > > > who would trade expressiveness for safety deserve neither. > > > > > > On 8/17/20 7:36 PM, Prof David West wrote: > > > > *[The following sentence is just to annoy glen and jon, who, I > > > > believe, are enamored of functional programming.]* > > > > > > > > /Of course, personally, I think all of this is nonsense and that the > > > > only criteria that should be used to decompose complex systems or to > > > > design programming modules, is //_behavior_//./ > > > > > > > > *[End trolling]* > > > > > > -- > > > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn > > > GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
In reply to this post by thompnickson2
Everything I might want to say about engineering has been said already:
https://bookshop.org/books/to-engineer-is-human-the-role-of-failure-in-successful-design/9780679734161 https://bookshop.org/books/the-evolution-of-useful-things-how-everyday-artifacts-from-forks-and-pins-to-paper-clips-and-zippers-came-to-be-as-they-are/9780679740391 On 8/18/20 9:33 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > You are the author! Or may be Glen. Or maybe all you wizards. An edited volume! -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by Prof David West
Coupling and cohesion are *somewhat* useful concepts outside of programming. But the SE jargonal subclasses are not. And even the upper terms coupling and cohesion are not the most useful ways to have this discussion. They're simply more jargonal, biased terms that dorks use to blind the normies ... to tell inside jokes. The more natural language in which to frame modularity in biology (writ large, from micro to macro) is information theoretic, which still allows dorks to tell their inside jokes. But it's much more expressive and universal.
On 8/18/20 8:24 AM, Prof David West wrote: > Much more interesting question would be your opinion of using coupling/cohesion typologies as metaphors in realms outside of programming. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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