pluralism in science
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Steve,
Do you have a link to your 2001 paper on Collective Intelligence? Can't google it. By the way, are you acquainted with Norman Johnson, late of LANL? Ron
-- Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com The World Happiness Meter On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Ron,
Norm and I teamed up when we were both in T Division (I was at CNLS) at the Lab working on an ABM policy simulator. He's back in Santa Fe. Merle On Apr 12, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Ron Newman wrote: > Steve, > Do you have a link to your 2001 paper on Collective Intelligence? Can't google it. > > By the way, are you acquainted with Norman Johnson, late of LANL? > > Ron > > -- > Ron Newman, Founder > MyIdeatree.com > The World Happiness Meter > > > On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote: > Ron- >> Here's the link to the Christakis/Fowler paper on happiness contagion I mentioned earlier...and a TEDx talk. > Thanks... I was being a little flip when I suggested all this, but I'm glad to see that there *is* work tied in already underway. >> Are they building off of Epstein's work? He's not mentioned in the citations. > I doubt it. I think we are talking somewhat separated paradigms. I suspect there *could* be a tie in with some work, but I can tell already that Doug is not going to be our Emissary over beer and ribs... <grin>. > > I have worked on two projects that tie in to Fowler's talk and his referencing of the Digital Village. > > One was an early days(public) internet project ( entitled "Digital Village", no kidding) to try to understand how the growing participation in the internet of the first and third world population might change the nature of these populations. I don't remember any amazing results, I seem to remember that the project was overcome by events such that we were running on pre-internet time trying to keep up with the actual progress of the internet. A related project I think was to try to help the USPS anticipate what the internet was going to mean to them... and what they could do to remain relevant as the digital age overwhelmed the atom-age. > > The other was a paper on "Collective Intelligence" Circa 2001 which involved some simple simulations to demonstrate that a connected group could have more problem-solving ability than any individual (or small subset?). > > A lot of my research and contribution overlaps a lot of what Fowler is saying in his TED talk... in particular our evolutionary roots as nomadic tribal groups of order 100... and the potential implications for our (future) social networks when they are no longer geographically, familial, or job constrained. > > I'm mildly disturbed by his verbage in the talk which seems to conflate correlation with causation (are obese friends on facebook actually influencing the others to become (more) obese or are they choosing eachother because they are obese, or do obese people share common interests (love food and sedentary pursuits while eschewing physical activities?). I realize it is a popular talk jammed into a short period of time... I'll get more out of the paper I'm sure. > > I'm also interested in whether "Happiness" is considered a scalar, a vector or even a tensor? And if there are iterated network models (roughly ABMs or Network Automata) trying to simulate this? > > So much for trying to be flip. Now I'm hooked (a little). > > Happily hooked? > - Steve > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by glen ep ropella
I thought the tautology is that scientists are trying to converge on Truth, but Truth is defined as what scientists converge on.
I would break the cycle by arguing that scientists are not trying to converge on anything, at least not if they are doing it right. They would expect that minus experimental error and statistical variation the results of their experiments would reflect some single coherent model of reality, even one that we currently have no conception of, but they are not supposed to and possibly can't assume such. -Arlo James Barnes ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Ron Newman
Ron,
Norm Johnson and I teamed up when we were both in T Division (I was at CNLS) at the Lab--worked on an ABM policy simulator. He's back in Santa Fe. Merle On Apr 12, 2013, at 9:41 AM, Ron Newman wrote: > Here's the link to the Christakis/Fowler paper on happiness contagion I mentioned earlier...and a TEDx talk. Are they building off of Epstein's work? He's not mentioned in the citations. > > Ron > > -- > Ron Newman, Founder > MyIdeatree.com > The World Happiness Meter > > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 10:29 PM, Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote: > Hi Steve, > > When our "Sustainable Happiness Week" is over (starts Saturday on Jefferson's birthday--OF COURSE!--ends on Earth day) I'd love to have a deeper conversation with you guys about all of this. > > We're actually doing two surveys, the one presently on-line based on the Bhutanese domains of happiness, which doesn't encourage us to do a statistically significant random sample (but it's a great social organizing tool)---and a follow-up, which will incorporate the best social research design we can muster, with hopefully at least a few objective measures. > > I remember in the old days sneaking into SFI to watch Josh Epstein do his early ppt. on the spread of epidemics and thinking: how can I apply this to the morphing of mass movements into revolution into civil war into complete chaos. > > Carl, thanks for the link to the paper on measuring happiness. It's a big problem among happiness researchers. > > Ron, I will get back to you tomorrow after I look at your web site. > > Merle > > > On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 7:29 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote: > Ron/Merle - > > When I went to the WHM, the three things that struck me were: 1) This is not a blind measure... it seems like you should have to state your level of happiness before you find out what the current "average" level is; 2) It looks a lot like the "Current Fire Danger" meter in our forests (Smoky Bear attending with his shovel, jeans and hat); 3) I suspect "happiness" to be culturally sensitive (both in meaning and in scaling?) > > Is there a model of sorts for "contagious happiness"? I also assume some of those here who use models of contagious disease might have some meta-models to offer (Doug, show your hand)? Are there reservoir populations? What are the non-human vectors (pets?). Is cynicism a prophylactic? Does happiness (and cynicism) act like quorum sensing/quenching (as with biology and/or hive populations?) Are there memetic equivalents to the modes of gene/protein expression? > > I would expect contemporary models of this might be registered on a network (scale-free, small world, power-law connected). > > The Maharishi effect has been offered to me many times without explanation for it's presumed mechanism. Back in the day, the Maharishi claimed that "world peace" (or some other unspecified collective good) would be achieved as soon as the square root of 1% of the population (that would be .0001 fraction?) achieved Sidhi status. Anecdotally, the number started out at a high mark of 10%, then dropped to a less onerous one of 1%, I don't know when or why the square root (.0001was added. I assumed it implied some kind of model for the phenomenon, but nobody seemed to know where that part came from or why the numbers kept getting downgraded. > > I recently watched the movie Kumare' (at the suggestion of our own Glen Ropella) and enjoyed it a great deal. A documentary film maker sets out to look into the world of Guru's and in the process becomes one... > > The best line of the movie was "My job is to be happy!", reducing his role as a (faux) Guru to a single, simple and effective concept. The documentary seemed to be completely authentic (as opposed to being some kind of mockumentary) and a conclusion (related to our earlier discussion about placebo/nocebo) might be that by embracing the role of a Guru(tm), Kumare' (the character) managed to have the effect of a genuine Guru(tm). > > 10 of his 14 acolytes remained true to him after he exposed himself as a documentary film maker studying the phenomena rather than a "real" guru. 4 have refused/avoided further contact with him. All 14 seemed to be enjoying huge benefits from their participation with him in his "practice". The 10, in followups seemed to have persistent positive effects, the other 4 we don't know but might have lost what they gained? > > - Steve > >> Merle, >> I'm the developer of www.WorldHappinessMeter.com (WHM). How can I be involved in the Happiness Santa Fe launch on Saturday? I notice from your site that an in-depth survey is part of the festivities. One planned addition to WHM is a survey in order to gather data worldwide to save the need for boots on the ground. >> >> Ron >> >> -- >> Ron Newman, Founder >> MyIdeatree.com >> The World Happiness Meter >> >> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 3:12 PM, Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Roger, >> >> Righto! We launch "Happiness Santa Fe" on Saturday ( go to our website, the Center for Emergent Diplomacy, or just go to Happiness Santa Fe for a calendar of events). We've had many recent conversations about how to encourage conditions for a shift in our mental models from consumerism and inequality toward compassion and generosity. >> >> When I teach Complexity at Upaya in the Buddhist chaplaincy program I usually suggest that compassion is an emergent property of the biggest system of all--our brains. So I say, hey guys, just meditate more! We have hard neuroscience on how that works. But how do we change the initial conditions for a collective response? Perhaps one way is to measure human happiness and well-being differently by expanding GDP to include ecological and social indicators as the Bhutanese have been trying to do for decades. We tend to value what we measure. >> >> You know, dear Roger, that I follow the research carefully. Thanks for this link. You guys study--we act and put it on the ground!! >> >> Merle >> >> >> >> On Thu, Apr 11, 2013 at 1:20 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote: >> There's an intriguing book review in Science this week: >> >> Studying Human Behavior How Scientists Investigate Aggression and Sexuality by Helen E. Longino University of Chicago Press, Chicago, 2013. 261 pp. S75. ISBN 9780226492872. Paper, $25, £16. ISBN 9780226492889. >> >> http://www.sciencemag.org/content/340/6129/146.1.full?rss=1 >> >> The claim is that there is not and will not be a dominant paradigm for researching human behavior, there are multiple ways of establishing causes for behavior and that's just the way it is. >> >> So not only do phenomena worth studying emerge at different levels of organization, but the emerging phenomena at a level of organization are amenable to different disciplines of study which may all be judged "scientific" by a philosopher of science. >> >> So, what's scientific evidence now? >> >> -- rec -- >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> >> -- >> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. >> President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy >> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA >> [hidden email] >> mobile: (303) 859-5609 >> skype: merlelefkoff >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe >> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > -- > Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. > President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy > Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA > [hidden email] > mobile: (303) 859-5609 > skype: merlelefkoff > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2
We keep talking about doing coffee but hasn't happened yet. Interesting guy.
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 12:19 PM, Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote: Ron, Ron Newman, Founder MyIdeatree.com The World Happiness Meter ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by glen ep ropella
On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 11:20 AM, glen e. p. ropella <[hidden email]> wrote: Roger Critchlow wrote at 04/11/2013 03:42 PM: Except that an anthropologist has none of the philosopher's interest in deciding which of the subjects have the greatest or truest or any philo for sophia. -- rec -- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Arlo Barnes
Arlo Barnes wrote at 04/12/2013 11:21 AM:
> I thought the tautology is that scientists are trying to converge on > Truth, but Truth is defined as what scientists converge on. I don't think that's (technically) tautology. I've understood that as "begging the question" or assuming your conclusion. It's related to tautology, but weaker, allowing other stuff to participate in the inference process. Tautology is straight equality. Petitio principii can have side effects and other conclusions, of which only one conclusion is equivalent to one assumption. > I would break the cycle by arguing that scientists are not trying to > converge on anything, at least not if they are doing it right. They > would expect that minus experimental error and statistical variation the > results of their experiments would reflect some single coherent model of > reality, even one that we currently have no conception of, but they are > not supposed to and possibly can't assume such. Agreed! ... not if they're doing it right. The trick is how do we know who's doing it right? -- =><= glen e. p. ropella Cause every supersonic jerkoff who plugs into the game ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Ron Newman
Ron -
Steve,Two questions, one answer! (with a self-correction... 1998, not 2001, I don't know what I put in my coffee this morning! Certainly not my daily dose of Aracept!). Symbiotic Intelligence: Self-Organizing Knowledge on Distributed Networks Driven by Human Interaction (1998) - Norman L. Johnson , Steen Rasmussen , Cliff Joslyn , Luis Rocha , Steven Smith , Marianna Kantor
I was semi-active in Heylighen's Gobal Brain stuff at the time...
and had just read George Dyson's "Darwin Among the Machines"
(because I was a fan of his escapades in "The Starship and the
Canoe" and of his sister's (Esther) work) and was trying
(futilely) to keep track of and model the growth of the Internet
(mostly WWW) as part of my day job. The collective/symbiotic intelligence stuff is kind of what I
took up after drifting out of the ALife world and after the
Cellular Automata world. Everyone needs a hobby. - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Arlo Barnes
Arlo -
> I thought the tautology is that scientists are trying to converge on > Truth, but Truth is defined as what scientists converge on. > I would break the cycle by arguing that scientists are not trying to > converge on anything, at least not if they are doing it right. They > would expect that minus experimental error and statistical variation > the results of their experiments would reflect some single coherent > model of reality, even one that we currently have no conception of, > but they are not supposed to and possibly can't assume such. Huzzah! Well said... I haven't researched this, but I suspect the historical record of scientific advance would show a sort of "punctuated equilibrium" with each new paradigm shift defining the "punctuation". - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Merle Lefkoff-2
Merle -
Have you also worked with Ed McKerrow? - Steve > Ron, > > Norm and I teamed up when we were both in T Division (I was at CNLS) at the Lab working on an ABM policy simulator. He's back in Santa Fe. > > Merle > > > On Apr 12, 2013, at 12:06 PM, Ron Newman wrote: > >> Steve, >> Do you have a link to your 2001 paper on Collective Intelligence? Can't google it. >> >> By the way, are you acquainted with Norman Johnson, late of LANL? >> >> Ron >> >> -- >> Ron Newman, Founder >> MyIdeatree.com >> The World Happiness Meter >> >> >> On Fri, Apr 12, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote: >> Ron- >>> Here's the link to the Christakis/Fowler paper on happiness contagion I mentioned earlier...and a TEDx talk. >> Thanks... I was being a little flip when I suggested all this, but I'm glad to see that there *is* work tied in already underway. >>> Are they building off of Epstein's work? He's not mentioned in the citations. >> I doubt it. I think we are talking somewhat separated paradigms. I suspect there *could* be a tie in with some work, but I can tell already that Doug is not going to be our Emissary over beer and ribs... <grin>. >> >> I have worked on two projects that tie in to Fowler's talk and his referencing of the Digital Village. >> >> One was an early days(public) internet project ( entitled "Digital Village", no kidding) to try to understand how the growing participation in the internet of the first and third world population might change the nature of these populations. I don't remember any amazing results, I seem to remember that the project was overcome by events such that we were running on pre-internet time trying to keep up with the actual progress of the internet. A related project I think was to try to help the USPS anticipate what the internet was going to mean to them... and what they could do to remain relevant as the digital age overwhelmed the atom-age. >> >> The other was a paper on "Collective Intelligence" Circa 2001 which involved some simple simulations to demonstrate that a connected group could have more problem-solving ability than any individual (or small subset?). >> >> A lot of my research and contribution overlaps a lot of what Fowler is saying in his TED talk... in particular our evolutionary roots as nomadic tribal groups of order 100... and the potential implications for our (future) social networks when they are no longer geographically, familial, or job constrained. >> >> I'm mildly disturbed by his verbage in the talk which seems to conflate correlation with causation (are obese friends on facebook actually influencing the others to become (more) obese or are they choosing eachother because they are obese, or do obese people share common interests (love food and sedentary pursuits while eschewing physical activities?). I realize it is a popular talk jammed into a short period of time... I'll get more out of the paper I'm sure. >> >> I'm also interested in whether "Happiness" is considered a scalar, a vector or even a tensor? And if there are iterated network models (roughly ABMs or Network Automata) trying to simulate this? >> >> So much for trying to be flip. Now I'm hooked (a little). >> >> Happily hooked? >> - Steve >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com >> >> >> >> ============================================================ >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv >> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College >> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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