oxytocin, again
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Once again the ingroup hormone is in the news: 1) A neurobiological association of revenge propensity during intergroup conflict <https://elifesciences.org/articles/52014> The link for the paper is the download icon in the upper right. But in skimming this paper, it seems to contradict what I inferred from this paper: 2) Oxytocin enhances pupil dilation and sensitivity to ‘hidden’ emotional expressions <https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/8/7/741/1653225> Granted, I expect to infer things not implied because I really have no idea what I'm reading. Whatever, I'm inspired by the other thread on acid epistemology to talk about things that cannot be talked about and run with the apparent contradiction. 8^) (2) seemed to say that oxytocin is a marker for being "on the look out", whereas (1) seems to imply it's a marker for being "in a state of trust/comfort/empathy/whatever". Endocrine signaling seems (in my ignorance) to be coarse and ambiguous. Since the body is made up of many quasi-autonomous components, an ebb or flow of a signal might take on different "meaning" depending on the *rest* of the conditions experienced by any given component. E.g. pupil dilation might occur in either context, where one's comfortable enough to be free of "fight or flight", but "on the look out" for subtle expressions in their ingroup team *or* safe enough to be free of "fight or flight", but "on the look out" for subtle expressions of subterfuge or betrayal in business negotiations (or whatever). I suppose a possible resolution of the contradiction might lie in the whole fast vs. slow thinking metaphor. If there are (at least) two conditions where one needs to be "on the look out", one fully engaged in fight or flight ... eyes darting around looking for the snake, pupils dilated ... or fully comfy on your couch listening to Enya ... pupils dilated hunting for the hidden emotional states of your dog. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Are emotion states hidden? I will grant that hormonal states are "hidden". But an emotion state is a tuning of the organism's behavior with respect to the environment, and hence "visible" to any well situated observer, no?
Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 8:28 AM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: [FRIAM] oxytocin, again Once again the ingroup hormone is in the news: 1) A neurobiological association of revenge propensity during intergroup conflict <https://elifesciences.org/articles/52014> The link for the paper is the download icon in the upper right. But in skimming this paper, it seems to contradict what I inferred from this paper: 2) Oxytocin enhances pupil dilation and sensitivity to ‘hidden’ emotional expressions <https://academic.oup.com/scan/article/8/7/741/1653225> Granted, I expect to infer things not implied because I really have no idea what I'm reading. Whatever, I'm inspired by the other thread on acid epistemology to talk about things that cannot be talked about and run with the apparent contradiction. 8^) (2) seemed to say that oxytocin is a marker for being "on the look out", whereas (1) seems to imply it's a marker for being "in a state of trust/comfort/empathy/whatever". Endocrine signaling seems (in my ignorance) to be coarse and ambiguous. Since the body is made up of many quasi-autonomous components, an ebb or flow of a signal might take on different "meaning" depending on the *rest* of the conditions experienced by any given component. E.g. pupil dilation might occur in either context, where one's comfortable enough to be free of "fight or flight", but "on the look out" for subtle expressions in their ingroup team *or* safe enough to be free of "fight or flight", but "on the look out" for subtle expressions of subterfuge or betrayal in business negotiations (or whatever). I suppose a possible resolution of the contradiction might lie in the whole fast vs. slow thinking metaphor. If there are (at least) two conditions where one needs to be "on the look out", one fully engaged in fight or flight ... eyes darting around looking for the snake, pupils dilated ... or fully comfy on your couch listening to Enya ... pupils dilated hunting for the hidden emotional states of your dog. -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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No. By the way, when Flor was about 7 she was petting our dog and she said, "I'm giving her some oxymoron." --- Frank C. Wimberly 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Wed, Mar 4, 2020, 11:54 AM <[hidden email]> wrote: Are emotion states hidden? I will grant that hormonal states are "hidden". But an emotion state is a tuning of the organism's behavior with respect to the environment, and hence "visible" to any well situated observer, no? ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by thompnickson2
Such a troll question. Should I put every word in scare quotes? 8^)
If you'll notice the title of the 2nd paper, you'll see they use 'hidden', not hidden. Sheesh. More importantly, the whole point of dilated pupils, and perhaps an "empathetic state of emotion" (there, all in quotes to allow for any more trolling) up-regulated by hormones *is* to make such subtle states more "visible". On 3/4/20 10:54 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Are emotion states hidden? I will grant that hormonal states are "hidden". But an emotion state is a tuning of the organism's behavior with respect to the environment, and hence "visible" to any well situated observer, no? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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No, life is quiet suffering. :-)
On 3/4/20, 11:13 AM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: Such a troll question. Should I put every word in scare quotes? 8^) If you'll notice the title of the 2nd paper, you'll see they use 'hidden', not hidden. Sheesh. More importantly, the whole point of dilated pupils, and perhaps an "empathetic state of emotion" (there, all in quotes to allow for any more trolling) up-regulated by hormones *is* to make such subtle states more "visible". On 3/4/20 10:54 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Are emotion states hidden? I will grant that hormonal states are "hidden". But an emotion state is a tuning of the organism's behavior with respect to the environment, and hence "visible" to any well situated observer, no? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by gepr
Sorry, Glen. I don't mean to troll. I stipulate that trolling is wickedness. There is another practice, akin to trolling perhaps, which I call "Dragging the conversation into one's own cave so one can gnaw on it in one's usual way". What I want to gnaw on here is that, I think we delude ourselves when we mix up behavioral states (in which I include emotional states) with physiological states (in which I include oxytocin levels. I am always (too?) eager to talk about that issue. I apologize for perhaps not taking your post on its own terms, but using it to tee-up another, perhaps irrelevant conversation.
Nick Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University [hidden email] https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ? Sent: Wednesday, March 4, 2020 12:13 PM To: FriAM <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] oxytocin, again Such a troll question. Should I put every word in scare quotes? 8^) If you'll notice the title of the 2nd paper, you'll see they use 'hidden', not hidden. Sheesh. More importantly, the whole point of dilated pupils, and perhaps an "empathetic state of emotion" (there, all in quotes to allow for any more trolling) up-regulated by hormones *is* to make such subtle states more "visible". On 3/4/20 10:54 AM, [hidden email] wrote: > Are emotion states hidden? I will grant that hormonal states are "hidden". But an emotion state is a tuning of the organism's behavior with respect to the environment, and hence "visible" to any well situated observer, no? -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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