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I think what's missing in that story is the context about how it came to be that a) there exist desperately poor people who need that water and b) the rules/charity system that deigns to gift that water to those people. Pick away at the gloss that *appears* kilned into the material, and you'll usually find some (often unrecognized) superheroes who made it happen. Order requires energy.
On 4/19/21 8:42 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote: > I live in a small town Mossel Bay in South Africa with a semi-desert climate. We have a desalination plant that can supply +/- 60% of normal potable water usage. It's not for the rich people only, when the dams supplying water in normal years dry up, everybody, including the desperately poor people get potable water. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
But that's (largley) the theme of the Chiang interview, technology isn't commensurate with selfish/evil/altruist/good individuals. Technology goes it's own systemic way, regardless of the specialness of the components involved. Capitalism requires an underclass ... if not *desperately* poor, regular good old fashioned poor.
On 4/19/21 8:49 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > the shareholders are too selfish to achieve something like Elysium or even large private water desalination plants. Even if there is a small evil population that kills off the rest, I don't see how capitalism is going to lead to that. -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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Desalination might work if you live on the coast, but what about those living inland. How do they benefit from desalination? Would we be ok with pumping fresh water from 1000 miles away to put into the Rio Grande in order to save the silvery minnow? Also, I have been told that the precipitated salt from desalination can be a problem. It causes problems when it is dumped back into the ocean, and problems when it is left on land to blow around in the wind. Cody Smith On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 10:14 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote: But that's (largley) the theme of the Chiang interview, technology isn't commensurate with selfish/evil/altruist/good individuals. Technology goes it's own systemic way, regardless of the specialness of the components involved. Capitalism requires an underclass ... if not *desperately* poor, regular good old fashioned poor. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
In the spirit of generative dialog, I offer a few bits: Some feel that the Red Queen is winning, in spite of the paradox
of that logic: Abundance
- Steven Kotler (former local associate of this group). His arc
of point-making includes a lot of high-tech but *distributed*
solutions, like getting a 5 gallon-per-day portable water filter
system to every third world family at a "reasonable cost". He
implies the tech/engineering is already in place, it is only the
will of the first world and subsequent logistics that are lacking. Until a few years ago Colorado (and other jurisdictions)
disallowed rainwater collection, even at the level of
roofs/rainbarrels. They relaxed that a few years ago but are
still *very* clear about protecting traditional water rights, if
you read the details of the new, more permissive rules: Rainwater
Collection in Colorado . I can speculate about what
is really *intended* by this draconian approach, and notice in
NM it is nearly the opposite, *requiring* new construction to
manage runoff (to prevent causing erosion downstream) from one's
own property. There was an interesting movie (Even the
Rain) describing Big Businesses' (e.g. Bechtel )
involvement in water wars in the third world: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cochabamba_Water_War. I am in the very eye of the storm of water warfare (of
sorts). The Rio Grande river runs 1/4 mile from me and the
watershed it represents is broken up into upper; middle;
lower. The demarcation between upper and middle lands at the
bridge 1/4 mile from my home, and there are myriad things which
can be done above that point which become not (legally)
possible a few feet south. In fact, the Buckman Well complex
where Santa Fe proper gets a lot of their water is just a few
miles downriver from me. The Aamodt
water battle is now 45 years old and attempts to effect
the terms of the settlements are underway all but literally in
my back yard.
https://losalamosreporter.com/2021/01/12/kay-matthews-aamodt-settlement-signed-and-sealed-but-not-delivered/
The project finally broke ground last year for a huge
infiltration-well system to extract water *from* the Rio Grande
to distribute to the Nambe/Tesuque/Pojoaque river valleys, with
the goal of retiring as many groundwater wells from that region
as possible. It is armatured around Pueblo water rights (see
link above) which includes golf courses, etc. which many
resent. On the other hand, one can imagine how the Pueblos
resent the Spanish/Mexican/US land/water grabbing that has been
going on for 500 years with the Manhattan Project (1943) and my
own property (1960s) grabs continuing into the present. BTW
much of the water being extracted from the river will come from
a diversion from the Colorado basin by way of a tunnel under the
Continental Divide near Chama. This watershed boundary
disrespect might not mean much at all, or it might be a hugely
bad precedent at many levels? For broader perspectives on this topic, I recommend this UNM Press collection: Thinking Like a Watershed. This phrase is a quote from John Wesley Powell who recognized the flawed way we were *already* thinking about resource management and governance back in the early days of the (Anglo) exploration of the West. I would claim that water desalinization (nanotech or otherwise) doesn't even address, much less solve most of these problems. Which is not to say that I think high-tech centralized (and distributed) water tech is patently a bad idea, just that depending on it to solve the more complex *systems* problems is misleading and could easily make things worse in some cases. - Steve
On 4/19/21 9:49 AM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:
Corporations are collective intelligences -- people -- but they need someone to sell to. No point in owning all the air or water unless you have millions of people desperate to pay for it! But that said, horizons of five years are a long time for most companies. CEOs incentivized to extract every bit out of those short horizons to please their shareholders. And the shareholders are too selfish to achieve something like Elysium or even large private water desalination plants. Even if there is a small evil population that kills off the rest, I don't see how capitalism is going to lead to that. -----Original Message----- From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 8:11 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) I should have linked this: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chiang-transcript.html "It’s capitalism that wants to reduce costs and reduce costs by laying people off. It’s not that like all technology suddenly becomes benign in this world. But it’s like, in a world where we have really strong social safety nets, then you could maybe actually evaluate sort of the pros and cons of technology as a technology, as opposed to seeing it through how capitalism is going to use it against us. How are giant corporations going to use this to increase their profits at our expense?" On 4/19/21 8:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:Ha! Sure. ... it still looks like SteveS called it with the Red Queen's Race. Even if such tech solves more problems than it creates, it'll still be distributed according to the power structures in place (e.g. rich people) when the tech's ready to scale. On 4/19/21 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:Again technology to the rescue... Nanotechnology for desalinization. -----Original Message----- From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:45 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) Copper? Natural gas? Pffft! Water's the interesting one. https://theconversation.com/interstate-water-wars-are-heating-up-alon g-with-the-climate-159092 And another one: https://www.theolympian.com/news/business/article250595449.html On 4/15/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:Another good example is water rights across states given watersheds, flood irrigation, etc. <https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2021/apr/05/arizona-water-one-p er centers> So, the question you're asking (how might "storage" in BTC be less preferable to other assets?) isn't really answerable *without* first discussing what that reservoir is *for*, what end does it serve?-- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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In reply to this post by Pieter Steenekamp
On 4/19/21 10:09 AM, Pieter Steenekamp
wrote:
Redwood certainly has a slick website... I can't tell what they
are actually *doing*... as websites (and brochures) go, they
definitely claims some conceptual/business territory that might be
valuable later, even if they don't have any significant tech or
logistics to back them up. A good domain name, a few trademarks,
some slick graphic design and aspirational stories can go a long
way to generate something that can be parlayed into "wealth".
With any luck, they are actually investing in the tech and
logistics implied and required by their story. Or also possible,
someone who is *doing the work* already joins forces with them and
the "good story" and the "good work" converge. Are they planning to make huge profits recycling or
pretending/aspiring to? And even if they are, what is this free
energy/entropy they are dipping into? What did that represent? Maybe the big money invested in *creating all those waste
streams* and *exporting the externalities into one commons or
another* will use these good stories for GreenWashing their
usurious behaviour? When I personally was confronted with the idea of recycling
household packaging (~40 years ago) I was resistant and
resentful. "how dare YOU tell ME how to dispose of my cans,
bottles, boxes, etc.?", "it is my god-given right to burn off the
organics in a barrel and dump the residuals in the arroyo, or
maybe just bury them in my back yard, or maybe a community
landfill, or even better, stick them out at the curb and have
someone else do all that for me!" But as I gave over to the
process of having separate bins and noticing what I was filling
those bins with, I became more aware of what kind of load I was
putting on the downstream systems. When it was made evident that
most everything *except* aluminum cans were either costing a lot
of money/energy to recycle and in fact in some cases were just
being rediverted to landfills, I could have thrown out a cynical
"see! it was never a good idea in the first place!" but instead
I had to take a breath and notice how much embodied energy was
implied in these buckets of bottles, cans, etc. and how much the
"dream" of recycling was aspirational. The era when returning shipping containers to Asia filled with
our "recyclables" is apparently over... either their standard
of living raised enough that they could no longer "afford" to
sort and process all of our "junk", or their standards for
polluting their own air/water were raised enough that they could
no longer "afford" to turn our junk into their pollution? When I
lived in Berkeley (2005/6) there were days when air quality
monitors on the west coast could detect particulates wafting all
the way across the Pacific. Many were deeply offended at that,
but a few of us recognized that a huge percentage of that smoke
was being generated *on our behalf* either in energy-expensive
manufacturing or in low-cost waste disposal, FOR US to have
ubiquitous and inexpensive consumer products. And *I* was deeply
offended by my own assumptions about all this. I think this is
what Trumpsters refer to as "Progressives' Self Loathing"? My point, if I actually have one, is that our *analytic* efforts
to reduce a huge system to a series of atomic bits we can easily
apprehend and address, does not necessarily address the issues
which are intrinsically *systemic*. I believe that within the
transnational corporations (Leviathan-esque Superorganisms in
themselves) that *they* consider the systemic properties of their
supply chains and the environments they exist withing (raw
materials, labor markets, consumers). It is only when they are
asked to (openly) consider their impact on other systems *outside
of their boundaries* that they want to reduce their arguments to
trivialities that can be addressed/dismissed easily. grumble, - Steve
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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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One of the other things I look at when I question the motives of
a new "corporate entity" is their chosen State of Incorporation.
Nevada and New Jersey are acutely implicated in their attempts to
attract "shady" businesses. from Investopedia
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Yeah, when I incorporated back in '01, I did it in Oregon, knowing we were likely to move there within a few years. All my advisors said that was a mistake, that I should incorporate in Delaware or somesuch. I was more libertarian, then. But even then, my ethos was to try to contribute to my locale (network or geo). So incorporating in some far flung place just doesn't seem right. Since we're still only 2 hours from PDX, I figure it's still roughly local.
Just this morning, I saw a van delivering groceries to the neighbors <https://www.imperfectfoods.com/>. And although everything about it sounds good, that they're based in CA makes me resist, perhaps in order to find something *local*. We have a cool little store less than a mile away that seems responsible and is owned by a long-term family in these parts. On 4/19/21 11:18 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > If the principals behind Redwood Materials INC are all upstanding long-time NV residents or there were something specifically obvious about their geography that makes them an obvious location for such an operation, then I can give that question a soft pass. To be fair the principals listed on their website <https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/about> do seem to have honest credentials, albeit maybe weighted toward having come from places that acutely helped to create the problems they are promising to solve... -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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A personal experience that supports the more cynical / realistic posts in this thread: technology, capitalism, poverty, etc.
In 1987 I was taking a graduate course in "development anthropology" and had to write a term paper on economic development in the Sudan (one of my professors was married to a woman from there). The proposal centered on solar power as the innovative tech and as an alternative to several planned hydro-power projects being planned. In addition to solar panels for local energy needs, the proposal included a framework for manufacturing 12-volt appliances, like refrigerators, lighting, heaters, toasters, kitchen appliances, etc. as well as computers. 80% of the manufactured goods were for export — to the, then, luxury RV market in the US and Europe. Huge net gain in Sudanese economy demonstrated. Prof sent the paper to a competition at the World Bank and I won a $2500 prize. World Bank tried to get funding for the project from member nations, especially the US, but USAID vetoed the plan in favor of a multi-billion dollar hydro project that "just happened" to award construction money to US companies and incorporated technically obsolete generators and transformers for the inevitable, very wasteful transmission grid. davew On Mon, Apr 19, 2021, at 12:33 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > Yeah, when I incorporated back in '01, I did it in Oregon, knowing we > were likely to move there within a few years. All my advisors said that > was a mistake, that I should incorporate in Delaware or somesuch. I was > more libertarian, then. But even then, my ethos was to try to > contribute to my locale (network or geo). So incorporating in some far > flung place just doesn't seem right. Since we're still only 2 hours > from PDX, I figure it's still roughly local. > > Just this morning, I saw a van delivering groceries to the neighbors > <https://www.imperfectfoods.com/>. And although everything about it > sounds good, that they're based in CA makes me resist, perhaps in order > to find something *local*. We have a cool little store less than a mile > away that seems responsible and is owned by a long-term family in these > parts. > > On 4/19/21 11:18 AM, Steve Smith wrote: > > If the principals behind Redwood Materials INC are all upstanding long-time NV residents or there were something specifically obvious about their geography that makes them an obvious location for such an operation, then I can give that question a soft pass. To be fair the principals listed on their website <https://www.redwoodmaterials.com/about> do seem to have honest credentials, albeit maybe weighted toward having come from places that acutely helped to create the problems they are promising to solve... > > -- > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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In reply to this post by gepr
This was a nice read, Glen, thank you.
> On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:11 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I should have linked this: > > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chiang-transcript.html > Several of Chiang’s observations have a ring of insight to me. On just one, for the accident that it overlaps with another factoid. His comment that superheroes: 1. Are magic == special 2. Preserve the status quo I think it was in Jane Smiley’s introduction to the volume of the Icelandic Sagas that she edited and compiled, that she says the Sagas are considered a premonition of the modern novel far ahead of its normal place in literature (the Quixote is I think usually credited as the first) because (for the Sagas), they realized that the old heroic tales of gods and trolls (e.g. the Eddas), didn’t have the depth to remain interesting under the retelling. The Sagas brought the focus “down” to the real troubles and accommodations and inventions of real people, which were richer, more complex, and more satisfying over time than the old tropes. I have come back to her comment many times, in thinking about what is the cultural role, whether of Eddas, epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata in India, Gilgamesh, etc. I think for all of these, Chiang’s characterization works in both its dimensions, though perhaps in different degrees for different cases. So the political right in the US turn to an encompassing paranoia +/= cynicism and Qanon, and the movie industry (whoever that serves) is dominated by Marvel Comics franchises. Having had the modern novel, we are throwing it away for not even epics, but dumb cartoons of epics, but keeping the magic and preservation of the status quo. After all, the real heroics have supernatural up-enders as well as restorers (Loki or Enkidu), and in the more advanced versions (the Eddas) the trickster is not dominated or overcome, but a persistent force. (c.f. also the Kosare in Tewa and Keres, and the mudheads in Hopi, in NM). There was another observation of a similar kind I recall, from perhaps two sources. Some historian came through SFI (for weeks or so), and gave a talk commenting on the iconography of scientists following the second world war. The public wanted old-age Darwin, tired, patriarchal, apparently gentle (one never saw the picture of the young man starting out to find his way in the world, and the imperious, contemptuous Newton image was long gone), and old-age Einstein, again the tired benevolent grandfather. From some other source, years earlier (I think coming from agriculture), there was the comment that sterility in the US came in the 1950s from the front-and-center nuclear terror. Television was Ward Cleaver and Andy Griffith. In the Cleaver home Ward wore a tie sitting in the living room chair in the evening. In Mayberry there was nobody non-white to consider the circumstances of, and nothing seriously bad ever happened. That was also when food in the grocery all went under plastic, and the ability to smell food walking into a store disappeared. So I guess we already know people admit they are scared, because that is commented on everywhere, but the reworking of their lives betrays a much more inclusive fear even than what they state. I did wonder, too, in reading the Klein transcript, whether Chiang’s brief characterization of the alchemists would be more congenial to DaveW’s use of the word, since he always makes it a point to reject the common reference as a misunderstanding. Eric > "It’s capitalism that wants to reduce costs and reduce costs by laying people off. It’s not that like all technology suddenly becomes benign in this world. But it’s like, in a world where we have really strong social safety nets, then you could maybe actually evaluate sort of the pros and cons of technology as a technology, as opposed to seeing it through how capitalism is going to use it against us. How are giant corporations going to use this to increase their profits at our expense?" > > On 4/19/21 8:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >> Ha! Sure. ... it still looks like SteveS called it with the Red Queen's Race. Even if such tech solves more problems than it creates, it'll still be distributed according to the power structures in place (e.g. rich people) when the tech's ready to scale. >> >> On 4/19/21 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> Again technology to the rescue... Nanotechnology for desalinization. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:45 AM >>> To: [hidden email] >>> Subject: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) >>> >>> Copper? Natural gas? Pffft! Water's the interesting one. >>> >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation.com%2finterstate-water-wars-are-heating-up-along-with-the-climate-159092&c=E,1,Ewpqbk1K7YvvWaN9Wq82biEau11JE47_9tv9w77esjTa5t6HYRzAKlQ2w-qi_xGNkEoqhkVKJuvI9hoKZ1q58ZXHgk_APFIJbNOqB5FmfTBe3-Djst8,&typo=1 >>> >>> And another one: >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian.com%2fnews%2fbusiness%2farticle250595449.html&c=E,1,NvMnnmssGuhqpYLBwvA3sYGLQlpI4LtssXofxpMUZv79UtcRK8Tqe9uBjxn8-AxuqoH2Ah-11_RcM_IlTW-TGgAXXpjbp6RfGPzrix6us3-O6w6BrA,,&typo=1 >>> >>> On 4/15/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >>>> Another good example is water rights across states given watersheds, >>>> flood irrigation, etc. >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardian.com%2fus-news%2f2021%2fapr%2f05%2farizona-water-one-per&c=E,1,CH_fKbSUirJq0d8JFH7BJbRnp3VoLW_l2ZsofeB8tXplQqNrJKiPCkdY2T3Ze0zf1SFcRCsXjtq_OHxVwg0cuwInTDLJULErLjTj6DMWH-ln0w,,&typo=1 >>>> centers> >>>> >>>> So, the question you're asking (how might "storage" in BTC be less preferable to other assets?) isn't really answerable *without* first discussing what that reservoir is *for*, what end does it serve? >> > > -- > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,do3tyOblMVu-0VNn8up6e0tWYpPJsKJ01Y2uM2wcYZS7DMtU0m0vkELMkKUtLJrDDd7q2acrwvVZGHMrtogU3JMZXny7J-cvYXl9X-_Ud-to&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,-i9rXcjjcGiytY-YboFO-CMS8l1iPMlt0tujKFvQqLJMfeVdtcKpk7Yv2pAru1X4-WJurnlE_Gjm-2VV7kch5yAw3dhwoHaaG7NQ0cytNmOyAnhh&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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The hypothesis that the latent fear is of capitalism is amusing since the anti-vaxxers who are afraid of Bill Gates doing whatever he is intent on doing to them (what is it?) seem to be the same ones so terrified of socialism.
Btw, someone finally approved by Clubhouse subscription, and so I turned it on. Let's just say the "compelling app" is not full of compelling people. It is one thing to know that these anti-vaxxer people exist, it is another thing to realize they have a place to talk, and do so. -----Original Message----- From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 10:23 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) This was a nice read, Glen, thank you. > On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:11 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote: > > I should have linked this: > > https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi > ang-transcript.html > Several of Chiang’s observations have a ring of insight to me. On just one, for the accident that it overlaps with another factoid. His comment that superheroes: 1. Are magic == special 2. Preserve the status quo I think it was in Jane Smiley’s introduction to the volume of the Icelandic Sagas that she edited and compiled, that she says the Sagas are considered a premonition of the modern novel far ahead of its normal place in literature (the Quixote is I think usually credited as the first) because (for the Sagas), they realized that the old heroic tales of gods and trolls (e.g. the Eddas), didn’t have the depth to remain interesting under the retelling. The Sagas brought the focus “down” to the real troubles and accommodations and inventions of real people, which were richer, more complex, and more satisfying over time than the old tropes. I have come back to her comment many times, in thinking about what is the cultural role, whether of Eddas, epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata in India, Gilgamesh, etc. I think for all of these, Chiang’s characterization works in both its dimensions, though perhaps in different degrees for different cases. So the political right in the US turn to an encompassing paranoia +/= cynicism and Qanon, and the movie industry (whoever that serves) is dominated by Marvel Comics franchises. Having had the modern novel, we are throwing it away for not even epics, but dumb cartoons of epics, but keeping the magic and preservation of the status quo. After all, the real heroics have supernatural up-enders as well as restorers (Loki or Enkidu), and in the more advanced versions (the Eddas) the trickster is not dominated or overcome, but a persistent force. (c.f. also the Kosare in Tewa and Keres, and the mudheads in Hopi, in NM). There was another observation of a similar kind I recall, from perhaps two sources. Some historian came through SFI (for weeks or so), and gave a talk commenting on the iconography of scientists following the second world war. The public wanted old-age Darwin, tired, patriarchal, apparently gentle (one never saw the picture of the young man starting out to find his way in the world, and the imperious, contemptuous Newton image was long gone), and old-age Einstein, again the tired benevolent grandfather. From some other source, years earlier (I think coming from agriculture), there was the comment that sterility in the US came in the 1950s from the front-and-center nuclear terror. Television was Ward Cleaver and Andy Griffith. In the Cleaver home Ward wore a tie sitting in the living room chair in the evening. In Mayberry there was nobody non-white to consider the circumstances of, and nothing seriously bad ever happened. That was also when food in the grocery all went under plastic, and the ability to smell food walking into a store disappeared. So I guess we already know people admit they are scared, because that is commented on everywhere, but the reworking of their lives betrays a much more inclusive fear even than what they state. I did wonder, too, in reading the Klein transcript, whether Chiang’s brief characterization of the alchemists would be more congenial to DaveW’s use of the word, since he always makes it a point to reject the common reference as a misunderstanding. Eric > "It’s capitalism that wants to reduce costs and reduce costs by laying people off. It’s not that like all technology suddenly becomes benign in this world. But it’s like, in a world where we have really strong social safety nets, then you could maybe actually evaluate sort of the pros and cons of technology as a technology, as opposed to seeing it through how capitalism is going to use it against us. How are giant corporations going to use this to increase their profits at our expense?" > > On 4/19/21 8:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >> Ha! Sure. ... it still looks like SteveS called it with the Red Queen's Race. Even if such tech solves more problems than it creates, it'll still be distributed according to the power structures in place (e.g. rich people) when the tech's ready to scale. >> >> On 4/19/21 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>> Again technology to the rescue... Nanotechnology for desalinization. >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? >>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:45 AM >>> To: [hidden email] >>> Subject: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) >>> >>> Copper? Natural gas? Pffft! Water's the interesting one. >>> >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation. >>> com%2finterstate-water-wars-are-heating-up-along-with-the-climate-15 >>> 9092&c=E,1,Ewpqbk1K7YvvWaN9Wq82biEau11JE47_9tv9w77esjTa5t6HYRzAKlQ2w >>> -qi_xGNkEoqhkVKJuvI9hoKZ1q58ZXHgk_APFIJbNOqB5FmfTBe3-Djst8,&typo=1 >>> >>> And another one: >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian. >>> com%2fnews%2fbusiness%2farticle250595449.html&c=E,1,NvMnnmssGuhqpYLB >>> wvA3sYGLQlpI4LtssXofxpMUZv79UtcRK8Tqe9uBjxn8-AxuqoH2Ah-11_RcM_IlTW-T >>> GgAXXpjbp6RfGPzrix6us3-O6w6BrA,,&typo=1 >>> >>> On 4/15/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >>>> Another good example is water rights across states given >>>> watersheds, flood irrigation, etc. >>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia >>>> n.com%2fus-news%2f2021%2fapr%2f05%2farizona-water-one-per&c=E,1,CH_ >>>> fKbSUirJq0d8JFH7BJbRnp3VoLW_l2ZsofeB8tXplQqNrJKiPCkdY2T3Ze0zf1SFcRC >>>> sXjtq_OHxVwg0cuwInTDLJULErLjTj6DMWH-ln0w,,&typo=1 >>>> centers> >>>> >>>> So, the question you're asking (how might "storage" in BTC be less preferable to other assets?) isn't really answerable *without* first discussing what that reservoir is *for*, what end does it serve? >> > > -- > ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn > GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailm > an%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,do3tyOblMVu-0VNn8up6e0tWYpPJsK > J01Y2uM2wcYZS7DMtU0m0vkELMkKUtLJrDDd7q2acrwvVZGHMrtogU3JMZXny7J-cvYXl9 > X-_Ud-to&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC > https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspo > t.com%2f&c=E,1,-i9rXcjjcGiytY-YboFO-CMS8l1iPMlt0tujKFvQqLJMfeVdtcKpk7Y > v2pAru1X4-WJurnlE_Gjm-2VV7kch5yAw3dhwoHaaG7NQ0cytNmOyAnhh&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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In reply to this post by David Eric Smith
"""
On just one, for the accident that it overlaps with another factoid. His comment that superheroes: 1. Are magic == special 2. Preserve the status quo """ Ugh, superhero movies. The fascination for some of my friends seems to be a mixture of canonization (when will this or that character finally find a place among the CGI-Hollywood stars) and curiosity regarding render-farm state-of-the-art[0]. As a comic book reader in the 90's, I witnessed a transition in the industry toward the realization that with great power comes great impotence[1]. The immortal and invincible Superman is a man without a match. He is fixed, unchanging, and thus without meaning. Alan Moore's Dr. Manhattan is in some sense an homage to this literary manifestation. Manhattan is the scientist that jumps the limit and becomes God. In this moment of 'enlightenment', he simultaneously comes to realize, as Zarathustra before him, that he is without meaning and that God is dead. Meanwhile, many of Moore's more typical superheroes take their cue from Eisner's "Spirit". There we find a hero that has no special powers or wealth and is often found leg-in-cast, strung up in the hospital. He is visited by sympathetic doctors and nurses that wish they could talk sense into him. Grant Morrison's Batman presents another inspired turn. There he reimagines Arkham asylum as the "Clinic of La Borde". Batman is called by Commissioner Gordon, the Joker has taken over the asylum. The Batman shows up to find that the Joker has not only done so but seems to be making breakthroughs with the patients that years of traditional 'therapies' had failed to realize[2]. Defeated, Batman realizes that to take action against the Joker is to do harm. While many such examples can be found in the literary body of post-90's comic books, film and television appear to have ignored or missed the memo, dragging the entire enterprise into cultural regression. One favorite example is a transition from the baby-faced 11th Doctor, Matt "all evil in the universe fears me" Smith, toward the aged and flawed, Peter "I ought to be able to protect and again I failed" Capaldi. The writers of Doctor Who, sensing that they had painted themselves into Impotentman's corner made a desperate move to deflate the all-powerful hero back into something life-sized, a character with the possibility of narrative development. Perhaps counterintuitively, it was exactly by reintroducing degrees of powerlessness that the Doctor comes to regain agency and find meaning. To my mind, the most sinister quality of these big-budget superhero films is the ultimate use of deus ex machina. The films build to the brink with a destroyer of multiverses orchestrating an apocalypse from a point outside of time and space. Then, some event outside of the control of even these level 20 superheroes magically-miraculously-luckily-(ironically?) prevents what by any reason ought to have ended everything. The superheroes win but not by their own actions or will. The image is ultimately one of powerlessness. The crowds go home assured that while we are rushing toward collapse, there is nothing we can do, but at least there is magic because obviously good will prevail. In many ways, the experience of being dragged to these films has perverted me. Now, I am most impressed that Luthor survived tormenting Kent as long as he has. When, in Alien: Covenant, the merry band of trustafarians plays into David's hands, I leave the theater with a wide grin, and not of schadenfreude but hope! Finally, like Artaud's Theater of Cruelty, an image of what may be at stake and the reasonableness of the steps that make it so.
[0] Arguably the reason for these films. Sent from the Friam mailing list archive at Nabble.com. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Yeah. I’m not sure what they’re afraid of, or even that they could articulate it. (And I guess I mean this as a royal “they”. Not some others, but a Weltanschauung that we can see rising, in which we are immersed) You are certainly right that the words are just buzzwords, exchangeable at the drop of a hat.
There is an expression “a full world” that I took up from its use by Herman Daly in papers like “Economics in a full world”, which argues that the problems that need solving are different when everything is occupied, than they were when everything was (for people) a frontier with no effective pushback against their expansion into it. People’s anxiety and bad behavior is somehow reflective of an awareness that the world is full, and there might not be any room in it for them. > On Apr 21, 2021, at 12:23 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: > > The hypothesis that the latent fear is of capitalism is amusing since the anti-vaxxers who are afraid of Bill Gates doing whatever he is intent on doing to them (what is it?) seem to be the same ones so terrified of socialism. > > Btw, someone finally approved by Clubhouse subscription, and so I turned it on. Let's just say the "compelling app" is not full of compelling people. It is one thing to know that these anti-vaxxer people exist, it is another thing to realize they have a place to talk, and do so. > > -----Original Message----- > From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith > Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 10:23 PM > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) > > This was a nice read, Glen, thank you. > >> On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:11 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> I should have linked this: >> >> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi >> ang-transcript.html >> > > Several of Chiang’s observations have a ring of insight to me. > > On just one, for the accident that it overlaps with another factoid. His comment that superheroes: > 1. Are magic == special > 2. Preserve the status quo > > I think it was in Jane Smiley’s introduction to the volume of the Icelandic Sagas that she edited and compiled, that she says the Sagas are considered a premonition of the modern novel far ahead of its normal place in literature (the Quixote is I think usually credited as the first) because (for the Sagas), they realized that the old heroic tales of gods and trolls (e.g. the Eddas), didn’t have the depth to remain interesting under the retelling. The Sagas brought the focus “down” to the real troubles and accommodations and inventions of real people, which were richer, more complex, and more satisfying over time than the old tropes. I have come back to her comment many times, in thinking about what is the cultural role, whether of Eddas, epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata in India, Gilgamesh, etc. I think for all of these, Chiang’s characterization works in both its dimensions, though perhaps in different degrees for different cases. > > So the political right in the US turn to an encompassing paranoia +/= cynicism and Qanon, and the movie industry (whoever that serves) is dominated by Marvel Comics franchises. Having had the modern novel, we are throwing it away for not even epics, but dumb cartoons of epics, but keeping the magic and preservation of the status quo. After all, the real heroics have supernatural up-enders as well as restorers (Loki or Enkidu), and in the more advanced versions (the Eddas) the trickster is not dominated or overcome, but a persistent force. (c.f. also the Kosare in Tewa and Keres, and the mudheads in Hopi, in NM). > > There was another observation of a similar kind I recall, from perhaps two sources. > > Some historian came through SFI (for weeks or so), and gave a talk commenting on the iconography of scientists following the second world war. The public wanted old-age Darwin, tired, patriarchal, apparently gentle (one never saw the picture of the young man starting out to find his way in the world, and the imperious, contemptuous Newton image was long gone), and old-age Einstein, again the tired benevolent grandfather. From some other source, years earlier (I think coming from agriculture), there was the comment that sterility in the US came in the 1950s from the front-and-center nuclear terror. Television was Ward Cleaver and Andy Griffith. In the Cleaver home Ward wore a tie sitting in the living room chair in the evening. In Mayberry there was nobody non-white to consider the circumstances of, and nothing seriously bad ever happened. That was also when food in the grocery all went under plastic, and the ability to smell food walking into a store disappeared. > > So I guess we already know people admit they are scared, because that is commented on everywhere, but the reworking of their lives betrays a much more inclusive fear even than what they state. > > > I did wonder, too, in reading the Klein transcript, whether Chiang’s brief characterization of the alchemists would be more congenial to DaveW’s use of the word, since he always makes it a point to reject the common reference as a misunderstanding. > > Eric > > > >> "It’s capitalism that wants to reduce costs and reduce costs by laying people off. It’s not that like all technology suddenly becomes benign in this world. But it’s like, in a world where we have really strong social safety nets, then you could maybe actually evaluate sort of the pros and cons of technology as a technology, as opposed to seeing it through how capitalism is going to use it against us. How are giant corporations going to use this to increase their profits at our expense?" >> >> On 4/19/21 8:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >>> Ha! Sure. ... it still looks like SteveS called it with the Red Queen's Race. Even if such tech solves more problems than it creates, it'll still be distributed according to the power structures in place (e.g. rich people) when the tech's ready to scale. >>> >>> On 4/19/21 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>> Again technology to the rescue... Nanotechnology for desalinization. >>>> >>>> -----Original Message----- >>>> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? >>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:45 AM >>>> To: [hidden email] >>>> Subject: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) >>>> >>>> Copper? Natural gas? Pffft! Water's the interesting one. >>>> >>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation. >>>> com%2finterstate-water-wars-are-heating-up-along-with-the-climate-15 >>>> 9092&c=E,1,Ewpqbk1K7YvvWaN9Wq82biEau11JE47_9tv9w77esjTa5t6HYRzAKlQ2w >>>> -qi_xGNkEoqhkVKJuvI9hoKZ1q58ZXHgk_APFIJbNOqB5FmfTBe3-Djst8,&typo=1 >>>> >>>> And another one: >>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian. >>>> com%2fnews%2fbusiness%2farticle250595449.html&c=E,1,NvMnnmssGuhqpYLB >>>> wvA3sYGLQlpI4LtssXofxpMUZv79UtcRK8Tqe9uBjxn8-AxuqoH2Ah-11_RcM_IlTW-T >>>> GgAXXpjbp6RfGPzrix6us3-O6w6BrA,,&typo=1 >>>> >>>> On 4/15/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >>>>> Another good example is water rights across states given >>>>> watersheds, flood irrigation, etc. >>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia >>>>> n.com%2fus-news%2f2021%2fapr%2f05%2farizona-water-one-per&c=E,1,CH_ >>>>> fKbSUirJq0d8JFH7BJbRnp3VoLW_l2ZsofeB8tXplQqNrJKiPCkdY2T3Ze0zf1SFcRC >>>>> sXjtq_OHxVwg0cuwInTDLJULErLjTj6DMWH-ln0w,,&typo=1 >>>>> centers> >>>>> >>>>> So, the question you're asking (how might "storage" in BTC be less preferable to other assets?) isn't really answerable *without* first discussing what that reservoir is *for*, what end does it serve? >>> >> >> -- >> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ >> >> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailm >> an%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,do3tyOblMVu-0VNn8up6e0tWYpPJsK >> J01Y2uM2wcYZS7DMtU0m0vkELMkKUtLJrDDd7q2acrwvVZGHMrtogU3JMZXny7J-cvYXl9 >> X-_Ud-to&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC >> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspo >> t.com%2f&c=E,1,-i9rXcjjcGiytY-YboFO-CMS8l1iPMlt0tujKFvQqLJMfeVdtcKpk7Y >> v2pAru1X4-WJurnlE_Gjm-2VV7kch5yAw3dhwoHaaG7NQ0cytNmOyAnhh&typo=1 >> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,NGvlSlha2Ok1WtgeaNRiFHO9Ev-Pk1yzd40dFh9YRRUYnJQe0rZVD5Umhi3fC7mF1bWULZp0yctFgycrQeQMLSyfPTdl2VmRKDFe7jqU9G6bH7bpp2hyhSM,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,u4hQzYdjcB-c4nswOzxwn-OSoR3NiNku1i70ZOq904752xccDoLASOOYVxdwCQUVDQfLwjNV2yiYF5XOZEzw_D7SzVHr0j1dM0lRDNM71VjCDQumMzMFXQ,,&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailman%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,nvkYkaQY88gho8v0YR3sR2RrMEN8iIbp9mblFs3ADVUjatcEQhIIUWowWOpQe3uGgNaa6Y10kSDa16UFDTPKLUEne4gemmnSDsJgyQErB65GOrZHW271JLQ,&typo=1 > FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspot.com%2f&c=E,1,IQhW1TrgFnRfFxKvG78fcOemotJuVrWf0NCMs9vI1s-8ESq7uVT0dJGXU0Ve-xBGCR-7iExj3_CblrraUqwDN3RxgCPEtJUFKE_NYcvO5R-cU_PKyBjpzs8Y&typo=1 > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . 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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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In reply to this post by Prof David West
There were others who understood back in 1987 (although very few) the future catastrophic climate implications of BOTH kinds of development strategy. On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 1:54 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote: A personal experience that supports the more cynical / realistic posts in this thread: technology, capitalism, poverty, etc. Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merle.lelfkoff2 twitter: @merle110 - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by David Eric Smith
Well, Chiang was, I think, arguing that there's a reductionism lurking in the asymmetric *use* of technology. Exploitation of resources by capitalists is just one form it can take. Reducing progressive ephemerides to the influence of superheroes or conspiracy theories is another one. Roko's Basilisk is yet another one.
To gloss all that into an equivalence class of arbitrarily swappable buzzwords or over-specific irony about the misunderstanding of socialism is a mistake. Eschatological thinking might not rise to being a first order trait ... a crisp category of people. But it's a persistent and prominent pattern. I really enjoy optimistic narratives like Pieter's. But I can also appreciate tragic narratives like Merle's. Eric's (and Chiang's) broach of the emergence of detailed and echatologically ambiguous story-telling out of the simpler types hits the right vein of ore. We're seeing more of these ambiguous stories lately ... in spite of the render-farm nonsense Jon laments. On 4/20/21 12:54 PM, David Eric Smith wrote: > Yeah. I’m not sure what they’re afraid of, or even that they could articulate it. (And I guess I mean this as a royal “they”. Not some others, but a Weltanschauung that we can see rising, in which we are immersed) You are certainly right that the words are just buzzwords, exchangeable at the drop of a hat. > > There is an expression “a full world” that I took up from its use by Herman Daly in papers like “Economics in a full world”, which argues that the problems that need solving are different when everything is occupied, than they were when everything was (for people) a frontier with no effective pushback against their expansion into it. People’s anxiety and bad behavior is somehow reflective of an awareness that the world is full, and there might not be any room in it for them. > > >> On Apr 21, 2021, at 12:23 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: >> >> The hypothesis that the latent fear is of capitalism is amusing since the anti-vaxxers who are afraid of Bill Gates doing whatever he is intent on doing to them (what is it?) seem to be the same ones so terrified of socialism. >> >> Btw, someone finally approved by Clubhouse subscription, and so I turned it on. Let's just say the "compelling app" is not full of compelling people. It is one thing to know that these anti-vaxxer people exist, it is another thing to realize they have a place to talk, and do so. >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 10:23 PM >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) >> >> This was a nice read, Glen, thank you. >> >>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:11 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote: >>> >>> I should have linked this: >>> >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi >>> ang-transcript.html >>> >> >> Several of Chiang’s observations have a ring of insight to me. >> >> On just one, for the accident that it overlaps with another factoid. His comment that superheroes: >> 1. Are magic == special >> 2. Preserve the status quo >> >> I think it was in Jane Smiley’s introduction to the volume of the Icelandic Sagas that she edited and compiled, that she says the Sagas are considered a premonition of the modern novel far ahead of its normal place in literature (the Quixote is I think usually credited as the first) because (for the Sagas), they realized that the old heroic tales of gods and trolls (e.g. the Eddas), didn’t have the depth to remain interesting under the retelling. The Sagas brought the focus “down” to the real troubles and accommodations and inventions of real people, which were richer, more complex, and more satisfying over time than the old tropes. I have come back to her comment many times, in thinking about what is the cultural role, whether of Eddas, epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata in India, Gilgamesh, etc. I think for all of these, Chiang’s characterization works in both its dimensions, though perhaps in different degrees for different cases. >> >> So the political right in the US turn to an encompassing paranoia +/= cynicism and Qanon, and the movie industry (whoever that serves) is dominated by Marvel Comics franchises. Having had the modern novel, we are throwing it away for not even epics, but dumb cartoons of epics, but keeping the magic and preservation of the status quo. After all, the real heroics have supernatural up-enders as well as restorers (Loki or Enkidu), and in the more advanced versions (the Eddas) the trickster is not dominated or overcome, but a persistent force. (c.f. also the Kosare in Tewa and Keres, and the mudheads in Hopi, in NM). >> >> There was another observation of a similar kind I recall, from perhaps two sources. >> >> Some historian came through SFI (for weeks or so), and gave a talk commenting on the iconography of scientists following the second world war. The public wanted old-age Darwin, tired, patriarchal, apparently gentle (one never saw the picture of the young man starting out to find his way in the world, and the imperious, contemptuous Newton image was long gone), and old-age Einstein, again the tired benevolent grandfather. From some other source, years earlier (I think coming from agriculture), there was the comment that sterility in the US came in the 1950s from the front-and-center nuclear terror. Television was Ward Cleaver and Andy Griffith. In the Cleaver home Ward wore a tie sitting in the living room chair in the evening. In Mayberry there was nobody non-white to consider the circumstances of, and nothing seriously bad ever happened. That was also when food in the grocery all went under plastic, and the ability to smell food walking into a store disappeared. >> >> So I guess we already know people admit they are scared, because that is commented on everywhere, but the reworking of their lives betrays a much more inclusive fear even than what they state. >> >> >> I did wonder, too, in reading the Klein transcript, whether Chiang’s brief characterization of the alchemists would be more congenial to DaveW’s use of the word, since he always makes it a point to reject the common reference as a misunderstanding. >> >> Eric >> >> >> >>> "It’s capitalism that wants to reduce costs and reduce costs by laying people off. It’s not that like all technology suddenly becomes benign in this world. But it’s like, in a world where we have really strong social safety nets, then you could maybe actually evaluate sort of the pros and cons of technology as a technology, as opposed to seeing it through how capitalism is going to use it against us. How are giant corporations going to use this to increase their profits at our expense?" >>> >>> On 4/19/21 8:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >>>> Ha! Sure. ... it still looks like SteveS called it with the Red Queen's Race. Even if such tech solves more problems than it creates, it'll still be distributed according to the power structures in place (e.g. rich people) when the tech's ready to scale. >>>> >>>> On 4/19/21 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >>>>> Again technology to the rescue... Nanotechnology for desalinization. >>>>> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >>>>> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:45 AM >>>>> To: [hidden email] >>>>> Subject: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) >>>>> >>>>> Copper? Natural gas? Pffft! Water's the interesting one. >>>>> >>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation. >>>>> com%2finterstate-water-wars-are-heating-up-along-with-the-climate-15 >>>>> 9092&c=E,1,Ewpqbk1K7YvvWaN9Wq82biEau11JE47_9tv9w77esjTa5t6HYRzAKlQ2w >>>>> -qi_xGNkEoqhkVKJuvI9hoKZ1q58ZXHgk_APFIJbNOqB5FmfTBe3-Djst8,&typo=1 >>>>> >>>>> And another one: >>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian. >>>>> com%2fnews%2fbusiness%2farticle250595449.html&c=E,1,NvMnnmssGuhqpYLB >>>>> wvA3sYGLQlpI4LtssXofxpMUZv79UtcRK8Tqe9uBjxn8-AxuqoH2Ah-11_RcM_IlTW-T >>>>> GgAXXpjbp6RfGPzrix6us3-O6w6BrA,,&typo=1 >>>>> >>>>> On 4/15/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >>>>>> Another good example is water rights across states given >>>>>> watersheds, flood irrigation, etc. >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia >>>>>> n.com%2fus-news%2f2021%2fapr%2f05%2farizona-water-one-per&c=E,1,CH_ >>>>>> fKbSUirJq0d8JFH7BJbRnp3VoLW_l2ZsofeB8tXplQqNrJKiPCkdY2T3Ze0zf1SFcRC >>>>>> sXjtq_OHxVwg0cuwInTDLJULErLjTj6DMWH-ln0w,,&typo=1 >>>>>> centers> >>>>>> >>>>>> So, the question you're asking (how might "storage" in BTC be less preferable to other assets?) isn't really answerable *without* first discussing what that reservoir is *for*, what end does it serve? >>>> >>> >>> -- >>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ >>> >>> - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . >>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn >>> GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailm >>> an%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,do3tyOblMVu-0VNn8up6e0tWYpPJsK >>> J01Y2uM2wcYZS7DMtU0m0vkELMkKUtLJrDDd7q2acrwvVZGHMrtogU3JMZXny7J-cvYXl9 >>> X-_Ud-to&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC >>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspo >>> t.com%2f&c=E,1,-i9rXcjjcGiytY-YboFO-CMS8l1iPMlt0tujKFvQqLJMfeVdtcKpk7Y >>> v2pAru1X4-WJurnlE_Gjm-2VV7kch5yAw3dhwoHaaG7NQ0cytNmOyAnhh&typo=1 >>> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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There was a book review in Science last week, sort of the book that Google wasn't going to let Timnit Gebru write on their nickel.
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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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In reply to this post by gepr
I believe that Merle's challenge to us to find/create/accept more
generative dialog is furthered by this narrative about
optimism/pessimism. I also think this topic of (mostly) technological innovation
(some socio-economic-political) is a good place for some purchase
on the topic of the inevitability (or not) of positive and/or
negative consequences of technological innovation and it's
coupling with capitalism and materialistic consumerism. Modes of
pessimism and optimism and variations on confirmation bias play
into our dystopian/utopian narratives AND their applicability to
the world we actually live in, not just the ones we most
hope/fear. Depression/Anxiety are significant components of this
stigmergic field. I read Chiang's most recent collection: Exhalation in the last few months and was impressed by his play as a cautionary/aspirational storyteller. I read this specifically to try to sync MY optimism/pessimism with my 41 year old daughter who seems to have shifted her reading interests into much more speculative fiction than previous to having a baby (first and to be only). Previously she thrived on a modest cynicism about the world coupled with a morbid fascination for futures such as implied by the Zombie Apocalypse genre. She is a molecular biologist with a firm (realist?) grasp on just how easy/hard innovation in her domain is. She is less pessimistic about the wild post/transhumanism (post animalia/post fungii/post botanical) future than I am (because she is more grounded in the realities) but is becoming more free to consider both cautionary and aspirational narratives without going to the utopian/dystopian extremes. Having walked two old men to their graves via Alzheimer's, I
find Glen's suggestions that Psi drugs might provide some
relief/opportunity anecdotally credible. Along with the rolling
back of memory scale, a key feature of Alzheimer's as I've
experienced it, is a reduction of inhibition. Whatever the
victim of the disease might be holding back begins to come out.
This can lead (in some cases) to bluntness unto rudeness and in
some cases even violence, but in most cases I have experienced hit
has lead to a more open and receptive nature, learning to take
things more "as they are" and less "as they should be" or "as I
thought they were". The conflicts that arise with an Alzheimer's
patient (IMO) seem to be rooted in the "normie's" needs to enforce
a strict version of reality that might actually not meet the
"facts at hand" well. Animal familiars (pets & otherwise)
and young children can often alert us to similar misalignments,
and thereby provide much-needed regulation IMO. Regarding the utopian/dystopian, optimism/pessimism, aspiration/caution, progressive/conservative axes. I suspect we often think of these as gaussian-esque distributions when they are in fact (at least) bimodal. The logic of looking for central/centrist positions/perspectives/outcomes may well be a fool's errand. it feels to me that we need to seek more and/or comprehensions (as so well captured by Dicken's best/worst of times). Perhaps Glen's hopes for Psi may have a useful play there. I do believe that DaveW and I have nattered on a little about AE Van Vogt's "World of Null A" which was a Golden Age of Sci Fi romp through the ideas and implications of a (sub)culture which eschews strict Aristotelian logic. - Steve On 4/21/21 7:39 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
Well, Chiang was, I think, arguing that there's a reductionism lurking in the asymmetric *use* of technology. Exploitation of resources by capitalists is just one form it can take. Reducing progressive ephemerides to the influence of superheroes or conspiracy theories is another one. Roko's Basilisk is yet another one. To gloss all that into an equivalence class of arbitrarily swappable buzzwords or over-specific irony about the misunderstanding of socialism is a mistake. Eschatological thinking might not rise to being a first order trait ... a crisp category of people. But it's a persistent and prominent pattern. I really enjoy optimistic narratives like Pieter's. But I can also appreciate tragic narratives like Merle's. Eric's (and Chiang's) broach of the emergence of detailed and echatologically ambiguous story-telling out of the simpler types hits the right vein of ore. We're seeing more of these ambiguous stories lately ... in spite of the render-farm nonsense Jon laments. On 4/20/21 12:54 PM, David Eric Smith wrote:Yeah. I’m not sure what they’re afraid of, or even that they could articulate it. (And I guess I mean this as a royal “they”. Not some others, but a Weltanschauung that we can see rising, in which we are immersed) You are certainly right that the words are just buzzwords, exchangeable at the drop of a hat. There is an expression “a full world” that I took up from its use by Herman Daly in papers like “Economics in a full world”, which argues that the problems that need solving are different when everything is occupied, than they were when everything was (for people) a frontier with no effective pushback against their expansion into it. People’s anxiety and bad behavior is somehow reflective of an awareness that the world is full, and there might not be any room in it for them.On Apr 21, 2021, at 12:23 AM, Marcus Daniels [hidden email] wrote: The hypothesis that the latent fear is of capitalism is amusing since the anti-vaxxers who are afraid of Bill Gates doing whatever he is intent on doing to them (what is it?) seem to be the same ones so terrified of socialism. Btw, someone finally approved by Clubhouse subscription, and so I turned it on. Let's just say the "compelling app" is not full of compelling people. It is one thing to know that these anti-vaxxer people exist, it is another thing to realize they have a place to talk, and do so. -----Original Message----- From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of David Eric Smith Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 10:23 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email] Subject: Re: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) This was a nice read, Glen, thank you.On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:11 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ [hidden email] wrote: I should have linked this: https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi ang-transcript.htmlSeveral of Chiang’s observations have a ring of insight to me. On just one, for the accident that it overlaps with another factoid. His comment that superheroes: 1. Are magic == special 2. Preserve the status quo I think it was in Jane Smiley’s introduction to the volume of the Icelandic Sagas that she edited and compiled, that she says the Sagas are considered a premonition of the modern novel far ahead of its normal place in literature (the Quixote is I think usually credited as the first) because (for the Sagas), they realized that the old heroic tales of gods and trolls (e.g. the Eddas), didn’t have the depth to remain interesting under the retelling. The Sagas brought the focus “down” to the real troubles and accommodations and inventions of real people, which were richer, more complex, and more satisfying over time than the old tropes. I have come back to her comment many times, in thinking about what is the cultural role, whether of Eddas, epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata in India, Gilgamesh, etc. I think for all of these, Chiang’s characterization works in both its dimensions, though perhaps in different degrees for different cases. So the political right in the US turn to an encompassing paranoia +/= cynicism and Qanon, and the movie industry (whoever that serves) is dominated by Marvel Comics franchises. Having had the modern novel, we are throwing it away for not even epics, but dumb cartoons of epics, but keeping the magic and preservation of the status quo. After all, the real heroics have supernatural up-enders as well as restorers (Loki or Enkidu), and in the more advanced versions (the Eddas) the trickster is not dominated or overcome, but a persistent force. (c.f. also the Kosare in Tewa and Keres, and the mudheads in Hopi, in NM). There was another observation of a similar kind I recall, from perhaps two sources. Some historian came through SFI (for weeks or so), and gave a talk commenting on the iconography of scientists following the second world war. The public wanted old-age Darwin, tired, patriarchal, apparently gentle (one never saw the picture of the young man starting out to find his way in the world, and the imperious, contemptuous Newton image was long gone), and old-age Einstein, again the tired benevolent grandfather. From some other source, years earlier (I think coming from agriculture), there was the comment that sterility in the US came in the 1950s from the front-and-center nuclear terror. Television was Ward Cleaver and Andy Griffith. In the Cleaver home Ward wore a tie sitting in the living room chair in the evening. In Mayberry there was nobody non-white to consider the circumstances of, and nothing seriously bad ever happened. That was also when food in the grocery all went under plastic, and the ability to smell food walking into a store disappeared. So I guess we already know people admit they are scared, because that is commented on everywhere, but the reworking of their lives betrays a much more inclusive fear even than what they state. I did wonder, too, in reading the Klein transcript, whether Chiang’s brief characterization of the alchemists would be more congenial to DaveW’s use of the word, since he always makes it a point to reject the common reference as a misunderstanding. Eric"It’s capitalism that wants to reduce costs and reduce costs by laying people off. It’s not that like all technology suddenly becomes benign in this world. But it’s like, in a world where we have really strong social safety nets, then you could maybe actually evaluate sort of the pros and cons of technology as a technology, as opposed to seeing it through how capitalism is going to use it against us. How are giant corporations going to use this to increase their profits at our expense?" On 4/19/21 8:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:Ha! Sure. ... it still looks like SteveS called it with the Red Queen's Race. Even if such tech solves more problems than it creates, it'll still be distributed according to the power structures in place (e.g. rich people) when the tech's ready to scale. On 4/19/21 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:Again technology to the rescue... Nanotechnology for desalinization. -----Original Message----- From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of u?l? ??? Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:45 AM To: [hidden email] Subject: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) Copper? Natural gas? Pffft! Water's the interesting one. https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation. com%2finterstate-water-wars-are-heating-up-along-with-the-climate-15 9092&c=E,1,Ewpqbk1K7YvvWaN9Wq82biEau11JE47_9tv9w77esjTa5t6HYRzAKlQ2w -qi_xGNkEoqhkVKJuvI9hoKZ1q58ZXHgk_APFIJbNOqB5FmfTBe3-Djst8,&typo=1 And another one: https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian. com%2fnews%2fbusiness%2farticle250595449.html&c=E,1,NvMnnmssGuhqpYLB wvA3sYGLQlpI4LtssXofxpMUZv79UtcRK8Tqe9uBjxn8-AxuqoH2Ah-11_RcM_IlTW-T GgAXXpjbp6RfGPzrix6us3-O6w6BrA,,&typo=1 On 4/15/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:Another good example is water rights across states given watersheds, flood irrigation, etc. <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia n.com%2fus-news%2f2021%2fapr%2f05%2farizona-water-one-per&c=E,1,CH_ fKbSUirJq0d8JFH7BJbRnp3VoLW_l2ZsofeB8tXplQqNrJKiPCkdY2T3Ze0zf1SFcRC sXjtq_OHxVwg0cuwInTDLJULErLjTj6DMWH-ln0w,,&typo=1 centers> So, the question you're asking (how might "storage" in BTC be less preferable to other assets?) isn't really answerable *without* first discussing what that reservoir is *for*, what end does it serve?-- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2fredfish.com%2fmailm an%2flistinfo%2ffriam_redfish.com&c=E,1,do3tyOblMVu-0VNn8up6e0tWYpPJsK J01Y2uM2wcYZS7DMtU0m0vkELMkKUtLJrDDd7q2acrwvVZGHMrtogU3JMZXny7J-cvYXl9 X-_Ud-to&typo=1 FRIAM-COMIC https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=http%3a%2f%2ffriam-comic.blogspo t.com%2f&c=E,1,-i9rXcjjcGiytY-YboFO-CMS8l1iPMlt0tujKFvQqLJMfeVdtcKpk7Y v2pAru1X4-WJurnlE_Gjm-2VV7kch5yAw3dhwoHaaG7NQ0cytNmOyAnhh&typo=1 archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
I went back to reading Ted Chiang at this point: And that is an example, I think, of this general idea that the intentions or the spiritual nature of the practitioner was an essential element in chemical reactions, that you needed to be pure of heart or you needed to concentrate really hard in order for the reaction to work. And it turns out that is not true. Chemical reactions work completely independently of what the practitioner wants or feels or whether they are virtuous or malign.
Chiang's point is entirely theoretical, in practice purity of intention is absolutely essential. -- rec -- -- rec -- On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 11:16 AM Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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In reply to this post by David Eric Smith
"""
But another aspect in which they can be problematic is, how is it that these special individuals are using their power? Because one of the things that I’m always interested in, when thinking about stories, is, is a story about reinforcing the status quo, or is it about overturning the status quo? And most of the most popular superhero stories, they are always about maintaining the status quo. Superheroes, they supposedly stand for justice. They further the cause of justice. But they always stick to your very limited idea of what constitutes a crime, basically the government idea of what constitutes a crime. Superheroes pretty much never do anything about injustices perpetrated by the state. And in the developed world, certainly, you can, I think, make a good case that injustices committed by the state are far more serious than those caused by crime, by conventional criminality. The existing status quo involves things like vast wealth inequality and systemic racism and police brutality. And if you are really committed to justice, those are probably not things that you want to reinforce. Those are not things you want to preserve. """ Additionally, this subject is exactly taken up by Moore's "Watchmen". Alas, the film version neutered Moore's text of its nuance, non-trivially changed the ending, and dropped the intentionally parallel and embedded story of the black freighter. Arguably, Moore seems to have anticipated Chiang's criticism. -- Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
That's an excellent point that plays well to Pieter's mention of allowing poor people to access desalinated water, Dave's mention of the myth of the objective, and our discussion of free will. These trajectories-willfull-paths-attractors-whatever need *some* organizing "centroid" or something for them to maintain/persist. That's even if such purity of intention is illusory in some psychological sense, that "centroid", "objective", "targeted state", or whatever it is can be pointed to and studied.
On 4/21/21 9:10 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: > I went back to reading Ted Chiang at this point: > > > And that is an example, I think, of this general idea that the intentions or the spiritual nature of the practitioner was an essential element in chemical reactions, that you needed to be pure of heart or you needed to concentrate really hard in order for the reaction to work. And it turns out that is not true. Chemical reactions work completely independently of what the practitioner wants or feels or whether they are virtuous or malign. > > > Immediately after reading this breaking alert from The Washington Post: > > > > > Baltimore plant with contaminated Johnson & Johnson vaccines had multiple failures, unsanitary conditions, FDA report says <https://s2.washingtonpost.com/31f97bf/608035ece6e81b42e4fd8e45/5972cf2a9bbc0f1cdceb5a63/3/13/608035ece6e81b42e4fd8e45> > > Vaccine production at the Emergent BioSolutions plant was shut down earlier this week after 15 million doses of raw Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccine were contaminated by ingredients from AstraZeneca’s vaccine. > > > > The chemistry only works if the chemists expend the necessary effort to making it so. When they fail, they generally poison people, destroy the factory, and, in this case, I think they're taking the company down with them. > > Chiang's point is entirely theoretical, in practice purity of intention is absolutely essential. > > -- rec -- > > > -- rec -- > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 11:16 AM Roger Critchlow <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > There was a book review in Science last week, sort of the book that Google wasn't going to let Timnit Gebru write on their nickel. > > > AI empires > > 1. [reviewed by] Michael Spezio > > Atlas of AI: Power, Politics, and the Planetary Costs of Artificial Intelligence /Kate Crawford/ Yale University Press, 2021. 336 pp. > > Kate Crawford's new book, /Atlas of AI/, is a sweeping view of artificial intelligence (AI) that frames the technology as a collection of empires, decisions, and actions that together are fast eliminating possibilities of sustainable futures on a global scale. Crawford, a senior principal researcher at Microsoft's FATE (Fairness, Accountability, Transparency, and Ethics in AI) group, conceives of AI as a one-word encapsulation of imperial design, akin to Calder Willingham's invocation of the word “plastics” in his 1967 screenplay for /The Graduate/ (/1/ <https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6539/246#ref-1>). AI, machine learning, and other concepts are here understood as efforts, practices, and embodied material manipulations of the levers of global power. > > > -- rec -- > > On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 9:40 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > > Well, Chiang was, I think, arguing that there's a reductionism lurking in the asymmetric *use* of technology. Exploitation of resources by capitalists is just one form it can take. Reducing progressive ephemerides to the influence of superheroes or conspiracy theories is another one. Roko's Basilisk is yet another one. > > To gloss all that into an equivalence class of arbitrarily swappable buzzwords or over-specific irony about the misunderstanding of socialism is a mistake. Eschatological thinking might not rise to being a first order trait ... a crisp category of people. But it's a persistent and prominent pattern. > > I really enjoy optimistic narratives like Pieter's. But I can also appreciate tragic narratives like Merle's. Eric's (and Chiang's) broach of the emergence of detailed and echatologically ambiguous story-telling out of the simpler types hits the right vein of ore. We're seeing more of these ambiguous stories lately ... in spite of the render-farm nonsense Jon laments. > > On 4/20/21 12:54 PM, David Eric Smith wrote: > > Yeah. I’m not sure what they’re afraid of, or even that they could articulate it. (And I guess I mean this as a royal “they”. Not some others, but a Weltanschauung that we can see rising, in which we are immersed) You are certainly right that the words are just buzzwords, exchangeable at the drop of a hat. > > > > There is an expression “a full world” that I took up from its use by Herman Daly in papers like “Economics in a full world”, which argues that the problems that need solving are different when everything is occupied, than they were when everything was (for people) a frontier with no effective pushback against their expansion into it. People’s anxiety and bad behavior is somehow reflective of an awareness that the world is full, and there might not be any room in it for them. > > > > > >> On Apr 21, 2021, at 12:23 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > >> > >> The hypothesis that the latent fear is of capitalism is amusing since the anti-vaxxers who are afraid of Bill Gates doing whatever he is intent on doing to them (what is it?) seem to be the same ones so terrified of socialism. > >> > >> Btw, someone finally approved by Clubhouse subscription, and so I turned it on. Let's just say the "compelling app" is not full of compelling people. It is one thing to know that these anti-vaxxer people exist, it is another thing to realize they have a place to talk, and do so. > >> > >> -----Original Message----- > >> From: Friam <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith > >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 10:23 PM > >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> > >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) > >> > >> This was a nice read, Glen, thank you. > >> > >>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:11 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: > >>> > >>> I should have linked this: > >>> > >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi <https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi> > >>> ang-transcript.html > >>> > >> > >> Several of Chiang’s observations have a ring of insight to me. > >> > >> On just one, for the accident that it overlaps with another factoid. His comment that superheroes: > >> 1. Are magic == special > >> 2. Preserve the status quo > >> > >> I think it was in Jane Smiley’s introduction to the volume of the Icelandic Sagas that she edited and compiled, that she says the Sagas are considered a premonition of the modern novel far ahead of its normal place in literature (the Quixote is I think usually credited as the first) because (for the Sagas), they realized that the old heroic tales of gods and trolls (e.g. the Eddas), didn’t have the depth to remain interesting under the retelling. The Sagas brought the focus “down” to the real troubles and accommodations and inventions of real people, which were richer, more complex, and more satisfying over time than the old tropes. I have come back to her comment many times, in thinking about what is the cultural role, whether of Eddas, epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata in India, Gilgamesh, etc. I think for all of these, Chiang’s characterization works in both its dimensions, though perhaps in different degrees for different cases. > >> > >> So the political right in the US turn to an encompassing paranoia +/= cynicism and Qanon, and the movie industry (whoever that serves) is dominated by Marvel Comics franchises. Having had the modern novel, we are throwing it away for not even epics, but dumb cartoons of epics, but keeping the magic and preservation of the status quo. After all, the real heroics have supernatural up-enders as well as restorers (Loki or Enkidu), and in the more advanced versions (the Eddas) the trickster is not dominated or overcome, but a persistent force. (c.f. also the Kosare in Tewa and Keres, and the mudheads in Hopi, in NM). > >> > >> There was another observation of a similar kind I recall, from perhaps two sources. > >> > >> Some historian came through SFI (for weeks or so), and gave a talk commenting on the iconography of scientists following the second world war. The public wanted old-age Darwin, tired, patriarchal, apparently gentle (one never saw the picture of the young man starting out to find his way in the world, and the imperious, contemptuous Newton image was long gone), and old-age Einstein, again the tired benevolent grandfather. From some other source, years earlier (I think coming from agriculture), there was the comment that sterility in the US came in the 1950s from the front-and-center nuclear terror. Television was Ward Cleaver and Andy Griffith. In the Cleaver home Ward wore a tie sitting in the living room chair in the evening. In Mayberry there was nobody non-white to consider the circumstances of, and nothing seriously bad ever happened. That was also when food in the grocery all went under plastic, and the ability to smell food walking into a store > disappeared. > >> > >> So I guess we already know people admit they are scared, because that is commented on everywhere, but the reworking of their lives betrays a much more inclusive fear even than what they state. > >> > >> > >> I did wonder, too, in reading the Klein transcript, whether Chiang’s brief characterization of the alchemists would be more congenial to DaveW’s use of the word, since he always makes it a point to reject the common reference as a misunderstanding. > >> > >> Eric > >> > >> > >> > >>> "It’s capitalism that wants to reduce costs and reduce costs by laying people off. It’s not that like all technology suddenly becomes benign in this world. But it’s like, in a world where we have really strong social safety nets, then you could maybe actually evaluate sort of the pros and cons of technology as a technology, as opposed to seeing it through how capitalism is going to use it against us. How are giant corporations going to use this to increase their profits at our expense?" > >>> > >>> On 4/19/21 8:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > >>>> Ha! Sure. ... it still looks like SteveS called it with the Red Queen's Race. Even if such tech solves more problems than it creates, it'll still be distributed according to the power structures in place (e.g. rich people) when the tech's ready to scale. > >>>> > >>>> On 4/19/21 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > >>>>> Again technology to the rescue... Nanotechnology for desalinization. > >>>>> > >>>>> -----Original Message----- > >>>>> From: Friam <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? > >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:45 AM > >>>>> To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> > >>>>> Subject: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) > >>>>> > >>>>> Copper? Natural gas? Pffft! Water's the interesting one. > >>>>> > >>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation>. > >>>>> com%2finterstate-water-wars-are-heating-up-along-with-the-climate-15 > >>>>> 9092&c=E,1,Ewpqbk1K7YvvWaN9Wq82biEau11JE47_9tv9w77esjTa5t6HYRzAKlQ2w > >>>>> -qi_xGNkEoqhkVKJuvI9hoKZ1q58ZXHgk_APFIJbNOqB5FmfTBe3-Djst8,&typo=1 > >>>>> > >>>>> And another one: > >>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian>. > >>>>> com%2fnews%2fbusiness%2farticle250595449.html&c=E,1,NvMnnmssGuhqpYLB > >>>>> wvA3sYGLQlpI4LtssXofxpMUZv79UtcRK8Tqe9uBjxn8-AxuqoH2Ah-11_RcM_IlTW-T > >>>>> GgAXXpjbp6RfGPzrix6us3-O6w6BrA,,&typo=1 > >>>>> > >>>>> On 4/15/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > >>>>>> Another good example is water rights across states given > >>>>>> watersheds, flood irrigation, etc. > >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia> > >>>>>> n.com <http://n.com>%2fus-news%2f2021%2fapr%2f05%2farizona-water-one-per&c=E,1,CH_ > >>>>>> fKbSUirJq0d8JFH7BJbRnp3VoLW_l2ZsofeB8tXplQqNrJKiPCkdY2T3Ze0zf1SFcRC > >>>>>> sXjtq_OHxVwg0cuwInTDLJULErLjTj6DMWH-ln0w,,&typo=1 > >>>>>> centers> > >>>>>> > >>>>>> So, the question you're asking (how might "storage" in BTC be less preferable to other assets?) isn't really answerable *without* first discussing what that reservoir is *for*, what end does it serve? -- ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: water, again (was murder offsets)
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On 4/21/21 10:51 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: > That's an excellent point that plays well to Pieter's mention of allowing poor people to access desalinated water, Dave's mention of the myth of the objective, and our discussion of free will. These trajectories-willfull-paths-attractors-whatever need *some* organizing "centroid" or something for them to maintain/persist. That's even if such purity of intention is illusory in some psychological sense, that "centroid", "objective", "targeted state", or whatever it is can be pointed to and studied. And these collective "aspiroids" are emergent, co-evolve with personal interests... the stuff of Swarms, no? A swarm of locusts is not a giant locust, but it can be said to be "ravenous"? > > On 4/21/21 9:10 AM, Roger Critchlow wrote: >> I went back to reading Ted Chiang at this point: >> >> >> And that is an example, I think, of this general idea that the intentions or the spiritual nature of the practitioner was an essential element in chemical reactions, that you needed to be pure of heart or you needed to concentrate really hard in order for the reaction to work. And it turns out that is not true. Chemical reactions work completely independently of what the practitioner wants or feels or whether they are virtuous or malign. >> >> >> Immediately after reading this breaking alert from The Washington Post: >> >> >> >> >> Baltimore plant with contaminated Johnson & Johnson vaccines had multiple failures, unsanitary conditions, FDA report says <https://s2.washingtonpost.com/31f97bf/608035ece6e81b42e4fd8e45/5972cf2a9bbc0f1cdceb5a63/3/13/608035ece6e81b42e4fd8e45> >> >> Vaccine production at the Emergent BioSolutions plant was shut down earlier this week after 15 million doses of raw Johnson & Johnson coronavirus vaccine were contaminated by ingredients from AstraZeneca’s vaccine. >> >> >> >> The chemistry only works if the chemists expend the necessary effort to making it so. When they fail, they generally poison people, destroy the factory, and, in this case, I think they're taking the company down with them. >> >> Chiang's point is entirely theoretical, in practice purity of intention is absolutely essential. >> >> -- rec -- >> >> >> -- rec -- >> >> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 11:16 AM Roger Critchlow <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> There was a book review in Science last week, sort of the book that Google wasn't going to let Timnit Gebru write on their nickel. >> >> >> AI empires >> >> 1. [reviewed by] Michael Spezio >> >> Atlas of AI: Power, Politics, and the Planetary Costs of Artificial Intelligence /Kate Crawford/ Yale University Press, 2021. 336 pp. >> >> Kate Crawford's new book, /Atlas of AI/, is a sweeping view of artificial intelligence (AI) that frames the technology as a collection of empires, decisions, and actions that together are fast eliminating possibilities of sustainable futures on a global scale. Crawford, a senior principal researcher at Microsoft's FATE (Fairness, Accountability, Transparency, and Ethics in AI) group, conceives of AI as a one-word encapsulation of imperial design, akin to Calder Willingham's invocation of the word “plastics” in his 1967 screenplay for /The Graduate/ (/1/ <https://science.sciencemag.org/content/372/6539/246#ref-1>). AI, machine learning, and other concepts are here understood as efforts, practices, and embodied material manipulations of the levers of global power. >> >> >> -- rec -- >> >> On Wed, Apr 21, 2021 at 9:40 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> Well, Chiang was, I think, arguing that there's a reductionism lurking in the asymmetric *use* of technology. Exploitation of resources by capitalists is just one form it can take. Reducing progressive ephemerides to the influence of superheroes or conspiracy theories is another one. Roko's Basilisk is yet another one. >> >> To gloss all that into an equivalence class of arbitrarily swappable buzzwords or over-specific irony about the misunderstanding of socialism is a mistake. Eschatological thinking might not rise to being a first order trait ... a crisp category of people. But it's a persistent and prominent pattern. >> >> I really enjoy optimistic narratives like Pieter's. But I can also appreciate tragic narratives like Merle's. Eric's (and Chiang's) broach of the emergence of detailed and echatologically ambiguous story-telling out of the simpler types hits the right vein of ore. We're seeing more of these ambiguous stories lately ... in spite of the render-farm nonsense Jon laments. >> >> On 4/20/21 12:54 PM, David Eric Smith wrote: >> > Yeah. I’m not sure what they’re afraid of, or even that they could articulate it. (And I guess I mean this as a royal “they”. Not some others, but a Weltanschauung that we can see rising, in which we are immersed) You are certainly right that the words are just buzzwords, exchangeable at the drop of a hat. >> > >> > There is an expression “a full world” that I took up from its use by Herman Daly in papers like “Economics in a full world”, which argues that the problems that need solving are different when everything is occupied, than they were when everything was (for people) a frontier with no effective pushback against their expansion into it. People’s anxiety and bad behavior is somehow reflective of an awareness that the world is full, and there might not be any room in it for them. >> > >> > >> >> On Apr 21, 2021, at 12:23 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >> >> >> The hypothesis that the latent fear is of capitalism is amusing since the anti-vaxxers who are afraid of Bill Gates doing whatever he is intent on doing to them (what is it?) seem to be the same ones so terrified of socialism. >> >> >> >> Btw, someone finally approved by Clubhouse subscription, and so I turned it on. Let's just say the "compelling app" is not full of compelling people. It is one thing to know that these anti-vaxxer people exist, it is another thing to realize they have a place to talk, and do so. >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> >> From: Friam <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith >> >> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 10:23 PM >> >> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> >> >> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) >> >> >> >> This was a nice read, Glen, thank you. >> >> >> >>> On Apr 20, 2021, at 12:11 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote: >> >>> >> >>> I should have linked this: >> >>> >> >>> https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi <https://www.nytimes.com/2021/03/30/podcasts/ezra-klein-podcast-ted-chi> >> >>> ang-transcript.html >> >>> >> >> >> >> Several of Chiang’s observations have a ring of insight to me. >> >> >> >> On just one, for the accident that it overlaps with another factoid. His comment that superheroes: >> >> 1. Are magic == special >> >> 2. Preserve the status quo >> >> >> >> I think it was in Jane Smiley’s introduction to the volume of the Icelandic Sagas that she edited and compiled, that she says the Sagas are considered a premonition of the modern novel far ahead of its normal place in literature (the Quixote is I think usually credited as the first) because (for the Sagas), they realized that the old heroic tales of gods and trolls (e.g. the Eddas), didn’t have the depth to remain interesting under the retelling. The Sagas brought the focus “down” to the real troubles and accommodations and inventions of real people, which were richer, more complex, and more satisfying over time than the old tropes. I have come back to her comment many times, in thinking about what is the cultural role, whether of Eddas, epics like Ramayana and Mahabharata in India, Gilgamesh, etc. I think for all of these, Chiang’s characterization works in both its dimensions, though perhaps in different degrees for different cases. >> >> >> >> So the political right in the US turn to an encompassing paranoia +/= cynicism and Qanon, and the movie industry (whoever that serves) is dominated by Marvel Comics franchises. Having had the modern novel, we are throwing it away for not even epics, but dumb cartoons of epics, but keeping the magic and preservation of the status quo. After all, the real heroics have supernatural up-enders as well as restorers (Loki or Enkidu), and in the more advanced versions (the Eddas) the trickster is not dominated or overcome, but a persistent force. (c.f. also the Kosare in Tewa and Keres, and the mudheads in Hopi, in NM). >> >> >> >> There was another observation of a similar kind I recall, from perhaps two sources. >> >> >> >> Some historian came through SFI (for weeks or so), and gave a talk commenting on the iconography of scientists following the second world war. The public wanted old-age Darwin, tired, patriarchal, apparently gentle (one never saw the picture of the young man starting out to find his way in the world, and the imperious, contemptuous Newton image was long gone), and old-age Einstein, again the tired benevolent grandfather. From some other source, years earlier (I think coming from agriculture), there was the comment that sterility in the US came in the 1950s from the front-and-center nuclear terror. Television was Ward Cleaver and Andy Griffith. In the Cleaver home Ward wore a tie sitting in the living room chair in the evening. In Mayberry there was nobody non-white to consider the circumstances of, and nothing seriously bad ever happened. That was also when food in the grocery all went under plastic, and the ability to smell food walking into a store >> disappeared. >> >> >> >> So I guess we already know people admit they are scared, because that is commented on everywhere, but the reworking of their lives betrays a much more inclusive fear even than what they state. >> >> >> >> >> >> I did wonder, too, in reading the Klein transcript, whether Chiang’s brief characterization of the alchemists would be more congenial to DaveW’s use of the word, since he always makes it a point to reject the common reference as a misunderstanding. >> >> >> >> Eric >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >>> "It’s capitalism that wants to reduce costs and reduce costs by laying people off. It’s not that like all technology suddenly becomes benign in this world. But it’s like, in a world where we have really strong social safety nets, then you could maybe actually evaluate sort of the pros and cons of technology as a technology, as opposed to seeing it through how capitalism is going to use it against us. How are giant corporations going to use this to increase their profits at our expense?" >> >>> >> >>> On 4/19/21 8:01 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >> >>>> Ha! Sure. ... it still looks like SteveS called it with the Red Queen's Race. Even if such tech solves more problems than it creates, it'll still be distributed according to the power structures in place (e.g. rich people) when the tech's ready to scale. >> >>>> >> >>>> On 4/19/21 7:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> >>>>> Again technology to the rescue... Nanotechnology for desalinization. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> -----Original Message----- >> >>>>> From: Friam <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> On Behalf Of u?l? ??? >> >>>>> Sent: Monday, April 19, 2021 7:45 AM >> >>>>> To: [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]> >> >>>>> Subject: [FRIAM] water, again (was murder offsets) >> >>>>> >> >>>>> Copper? Natural gas? Pffft! Water's the interesting one. >> >>>>> >> >>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2ftheconversation>. >> >>>>> com%2finterstate-water-wars-are-heating-up-along-with-the-climate-15 >> >>>>> 9092&c=E,1,Ewpqbk1K7YvvWaN9Wq82biEau11JE47_9tv9w77esjTa5t6HYRzAKlQ2w >> >>>>> -qi_xGNkEoqhkVKJuvI9hoKZ1q58ZXHgk_APFIJbNOqB5FmfTBe3-Djst8,&typo=1 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> And another one: >> >>>>> https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theolympian>. >> >>>>> com%2fnews%2fbusiness%2farticle250595449.html&c=E,1,NvMnnmssGuhqpYLB >> >>>>> wvA3sYGLQlpI4LtssXofxpMUZv79UtcRK8Tqe9uBjxn8-AxuqoH2Ah-11_RcM_IlTW-T >> >>>>> GgAXXpjbp6RfGPzrix6us3-O6w6BrA,,&typo=1 >> >>>>> >> >>>>> On 4/15/21 7:59 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote: >> >>>>>> Another good example is water rights across states given >> >>>>>> watersheds, flood irrigation, etc. >> >>>>>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.theguardia> >> >>>>>> n.com <http://n.com>%2fus-news%2f2021%2fapr%2f05%2farizona-water-one-per&c=E,1,CH_ >> >>>>>> fKbSUirJq0d8JFH7BJbRnp3VoLW_l2ZsofeB8tXplQqNrJKiPCkdY2T3Ze0zf1SFcRC >> >>>>>> sXjtq_OHxVwg0cuwInTDLJULErLjTj6DMWH-ln0w,,&typo=1 >> >>>>>> centers> >> >>>>>> >> >>>>>> So, the question you're asking (how might "storage" in BTC be less preferable to other assets?) isn't really answerable *without* first discussing what that reservoir is *for*, what end does it serve? - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ |
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