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looking for a word

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Steve Smith

Re: looking for a word

Thanks for this twist Eric...

We all know "you can verbize any noun"...

it is interesting to see that to "nounize an adjective, but you must do
it by way of a transitive verb"

I think that in the sense of linguistic and mathematical transitivity,
maybe one of the features found in the structures Glen is studying is
"ambitransitivity"? To use linguistics as the metaphorical target
domain opens up a whole new can of worms (to use an fisherman's or
perhaps organic gardner's domain as target?) on the question (or would
it be better to open up a big ole' can of whoop-ass or perhaps popeye's
spinach instead?).

Ambitransitive verbs can be used with both direct objects or not.
Transitivity seems to roughly correlate with direct action/consequence
and more indirect action (afferent/efferent implies an object while bed
and plenum (and manifold?) might not so much?).

Mumble...

On 8/21/18 9:22 AM, Eric Smith wrote:

> Glen,
>
> I haven’t followed this thread closely enough to have a good sense of what you are after, so apologies if this is off point.
>
> When you first asked, and hadn’t talked yet about specifically tree-like networks, I was thinking that the converging end could borrow the term “coalescent” from population genetics. I don’t think the geneticists have a corresponding word for the final-time data that it is the purpose of the coalescent to assign a history to, but I guess the counterpart would be the “divergent”. That would have been a strange notion for a merely-concentrated part of a network that wasn’t both treelike and directed in some sense, so I stayed quiet. But it seems treelike networks with sources and destinations are still in the conversation.
>
> Of course this has the problem that both words are natively adjectives, themselves derived from transitive verbs, which have now been repurposed as nouns in technical fields. But maybe in linguistic typology that isn’t so uncommon (Bill Croft has told me this, but I don’t have a particularly good reference. Perhaps
> http://www.unm.edu/~wcroft/WACabst.html
> or his book(s?))
>
> Best,
> Eric
>
>
>
>> On Aug 21, 2018, at 9:50 AM, ∄ uǝʃƃ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> "Plenum" is a fantastic idea. I rejected "manifold" originally because I've tried to use it in conversations with biologists before and it just didn't seem to communicate the idea. It baffles me a bit because the word is so directly available as "many folds". But perhaps it's too engineering-oriented. Plenum may well be what I'm looking for, though. It has similar problems to "plexus", though, in its etymology. Where "plexus" can imply braiding where the threads don't merge/branch, but merely criss-cross, "plenum" can mean "full space", which might well refer to the center of the bed (leaf nodes in the lung or tree case, smallest diameter in the capillary bed case) where the network comes closest to filling the space. Plexus has an advantage over plenum, though, because it's already used in the way I want. E.g. afferent and efferent plexuses.
>>
>> On 08/20/2018 10:18 PM, Robert J. Cordingley wrote:
>>> Whatever happened to 'inlet or exhaust manifolds' or 'plenum'? (The exhausts from the 7 cyclone sets come together in a plenum before exiting the reactor.) Too mundane?
>> --
>> ∄ uǝʃƃ
>>
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gepr

Re: looking for a word

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Well, I did mention "plexus" in the very first post. So, perhaps all the word needs is a champion!

Anastomosis seems to be more like a shunt around the type of networked structure we're talking about. Or, at least, the etymology seems to talk about connecting two whole openings "make a hole"! 8^)

Reticulation is much more powerful, I think. But, yes, it seems to target the leaves or the most-fractalized part of the network. But that brings to mind: "matriculation" (from matrix) and "articulation", for whatever reason. The branching being done by these systems is "matrixifying" ... splitting the dimensions from a low number to a high number (for efferent) and the reverse for afferent.

It's bizarre, really. I'm reminded of Luc Steels' "language games", where the suggestion is that the root of language lies in the ability to _point_ at some concrete thing. If you draw any one of these networks, I can draw an oval around the part I'm referring to and say "I'm talking about THAT part. Not the other part over there. THAT part." (The part excluding the trunk of the tree, excluding the foliage, etc. ... just containing the part after branching begins and before the branching is complete.) Like Steels' robots, I could make any random bleeping noise to name the part of the network at which I'm pointing and everyone would understand. [sigh]

On 08/21/2018 11:41 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> I can't believe none of us offered up "plexus" along the way!
>
> I think your invocation of "bed" *IS* maybe better served by "plenum"
> and I can see how the portmanteau of plenum and nexus naturally arrive
> at "plexus" as suggested.   Plenum seems to connote "mixing" not just
> collection/distribution whereas "bed" seems a bit more static.
>
> I always thought that the engineering use of "manifold" was modestly
> disingenous, abusing the more abstract purity of the mathematical
> "manifold".   Propogating the engineering use into biology would seem
> only to aggravate the abuse?   Of course, this *IS* how language
> evolves, so who am I to say?
>
> While I am most familiar with the obvious nerve-bundle plexuses (solar
> plexus, lumbar plexus, brachial plexus, sacral plexus, etc.) a little
> review on the internet shows that the term is also used in lymphatic and
> blood systems (collectively "veinous"?), including the blood-brain.
>
> The concept (word?) I have been in search of since you first brought
> this up turns out to be "anastomose" which describes the interconnection
> between networks (of possibly different qualities?).
>
>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastomosis
>
> I also encountered the term "reticulation" which might also be
> *structurally* relevant to what is happening in the "bed" or "plenum"
> you are considering?

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Steve Smith

Re: looking for a word

Glen -
> Well, I did mention "plexus" in the very first post. So, perhaps all the word needs is a champion!
That would explain why we didn't mention it! Out of deference to the OP
(you, who also became the champion)?   Doh!   When prompted here I
*vaguely* remember dismissing it as too pop-sounding to give any
interest to... funny what proper socialization can do!
> Anastomosis seems to be more like a shunt around the type of networked structure we're talking about. Or, at least, the etymology seems to talk about connecting two whole openings "make a hole"! 8^)
I agree that on the surface, this is correct, though in
medical/anatomical contexts, it appears that the *dysfunctional* version
of this is a "fistula"....

I *think* that just above the cellular level, this is where the "good
work" is happening... all the networking is about
distribution/aggregation which you have already discussed.... the
"sorting by many methods" seems to be happening at this finer level
(porosity of the endothelial lining, ductules, etc.).    So I would
counter "shunt around" with "shunts amongst" perhaps?   There is an
abrupt shift in the nature of structure when we reach the cellular level
(the physical size of blood cells, endothelial cells, etc.) and rather
than continued shrinking of the same organ(elle?) (veinous structures)
we start having partial-cell-size voids/pores between cells (and
collections of smaller cells forming ductules?), etc to effect "a little
more" scaling and then begin to allow/mediate transport between
differing networks (anastomosis)?
> Reticulation is much more powerful, I think. But, yes, it seems to target the leaves or the most-fractalized part of the network. But that brings to mind: "matriculation" (from matrix) and "articulation", for whatever reason. The branching being done by these systems is "matrixifying" ... splitting the dimensions from a low number to a high number (for efferent) and the reverse for afferent.
I wonder at this idea of "splitting of dimensions".   It seems more like
*mainly* a subdivision of space down to some threshold (cellular or
organelle level)? where the diffusion-like system takes over.   This
seems like the point at which the hierarchichal is replaced by the
reticulated?   There is no more need/point/opportunity for reducing
scale, and simply optimizing flow through the bed/plenum is the goal?

Some of the other discussion about the point of the afferent/efferent
hierarchy/ self-similar branching, etc. seems "obvious" in that this
type of branching conserves flow?   I'm probably missing some subtlety
here... "of course" the major vein/artery must carry the same volume of
fluid as the next level of scale collectively carries, no down to the
cappilary level in the same way that the sum total tiniest of rivulets
in a watershed must match (give or take evaporation, etc.) the outflow
of the main channel...
>
> It's bizarre, really. I'm reminded of Luc Steels' "language games", where the suggestion is that the root of language lies in the ability to _point_ at some concrete thing. If you draw any one of these networks, I can draw an oval around the part I'm referring to and say "I'm talking about THAT part. Not the other part over there. THAT part." (The part excluding the trunk of the tree, excluding the foliage, etc. ... just containing the part after branching begins and before the branching is complete.) Like Steels' robots, I could make any random bleeping noise to name the part of the network at which I'm pointing and everyone would understand. [sigh]
And as many of us are too familiar, if you keep using a word often
enough ("Plexus, plexus, plexus"... it becomes indistinguishable from
"bleep, bleep, bleep..."!

"bleep!"
- Steve

>
>
> On 08/21/2018 11:41 AM, Steven A Smith wrote:
>> I can't believe none of us offered up "plexus" along the way!
>>
>> I think your invocation of "bed" *IS* maybe better served by "plenum"
>> and I can see how the portmanteau of plenum and nexus naturally arrive
>> at "plexus" as suggested.   Plenum seems to connote "mixing" not just
>> collection/distribution whereas "bed" seems a bit more static.
>>
>> I always thought that the engineering use of "manifold" was modestly
>> disingenous, abusing the more abstract purity of the mathematical
>> "manifold".   Propogating the engineering use into biology would seem
>> only to aggravate the abuse?   Of course, this *IS* how language
>> evolves, so who am I to say?
>>
>> While I am most familiar with the obvious nerve-bundle plexuses (solar
>> plexus, lumbar plexus, brachial plexus, sacral plexus, etc.) a little
>> review on the internet shows that the term is also used in lymphatic and
>> blood systems (collectively "veinous"?), including the blood-brain.
>>
>> The concept (word?) I have been in search of since you first brought
>> this up turns out to be "anastomose" which describes the interconnection
>> between networks (of possibly different qualities?).
>>
>>     https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anastomosis
>>
>> I also encountered the term "reticulation" which might also be
>> *structurally* relevant to what is happening in the "bed" or "plenum"
>> you are considering?

Steve Smith

Re: looking for a word

Glen -
>> Reticulation is much more powerful, I think. But, yes, it seems to target the leaves or the most-fractalized part of the network. But that brings to mind: "matriculation" (from matrix) and "articulation", for whatever reason.
Matriculation does indeed seem to be related to "Matrix" but apparently
in the sense of embedding into a nourishing environment (womblike?)
which makes some sense for the common use in "entering an institution
such as a university or college". I'm not sure what you meant by
dimension reduction in this context?

You also mention "articulation" but my fumble-fingers had me finding
"atriculation" instead and found (only?) in an urban dictionary: 1. To
funnel information down; 2.) the trickle down effect of data that will
lead you to one conclusion; 3. to vett.

Slip-sliding around in phoneto-typographic space...

- Steve

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gepr

Re: looking for a word

Sorry for being vague. By "matrixification", I made an attempt to suggest something like taking a single 1-dimensional thing (a tube) and splitting it into more than one thing, each of which is still 1-dimensional, but together approaching a higher dimension (2 or 3).

By "articulation", I intended something similar, taking something like a single tube and putting in *joints*, which might also provide branch points. Two pipes connected by an angle will be more articulated than a single pipe (of the same length). By extension, then, 3 pipes connected by a splitter will be more articulated than two pipes connected by an angle.

On 08/21/2018 02:36 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> Matriculation does indeed seem to be related to "Matrix" but apparently
> in the sense of embedding into a nourishing environment (womblike?)
> which makes some sense for the common use in "entering an institution
> such as a university or college". I'm not sure what you meant by
> dimension reduction in this context?
>
> You also mention "articulation" but my fumble-fingers had me finding
> "atriculation" instead and found (only?) in an urban dictionary: 1. To
> funnel information down; 2.) the trickle down effect of data that will
> lead you to one conclusion; 3. to vett.

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: looking for a word

Arriving late to the party... how about “branch point” or “branch node”? Maybe “fork off point” ;-)

Carl Tollander

Re: looking for a word

Alluvium. Thus, Alluvia.

On Tue, Aug 21, 2018 at 9:53 PM, Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]> wrote:

Arriving late to the party... how about “branch point” or “branch node”? Maybe “fork off point” ;-)

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Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: looking for a word

In reply to this post by gepr

anastomosis(circulatory) is the progressive branching of arteries down to capillaries.
The flow in the trunk line is accommodated by the sum of volumes downstream.
When such a network meshes with another closed network and the fluids in each are flowing in opposite directions. a counter-current
exchange system reduces the difference in gradients i.e. gases, heat flow.
Rete Mirable , the miraculous network that was first discovered in Tuna used to keep the blood warm.
There are many such systems in the human body.
vladimyr
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ?
Sent: August-21-18 4:59 PM
To: FriAM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] looking for a word

Sorry for being vague. By "matrixification", I made an attempt to suggest something like taking a single 1-dimensional thing (a tube) and splitting it into more than one thing, each of which is still 1-dimensional, but together approaching a higher dimension (2 or 3).

By "articulation", I intended something similar, taking something like a single tube and putting in *joints*, which might also provide branch points. Two pipes connected by an angle will be more articulated than a single pipe (of the same length). By extension, then, 3 pipes connected by a splitter will be more articulated than two pipes connected by an angle.

On 08/21/2018 02:36 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

> Matriculation does indeed seem to be related to "Matrix" but
> apparently in the sense of embedding into a nourishing environment
> (womblike?) which makes some sense for the common use in "entering an
> institution such as a university or college". I'm not sure what you
> meant by dimension reduction in this context?
>
> You also mention "articulation" but my fumble-fingers had me finding
> "atriculation" instead and found (only?) in an urban dictionary: 1. To
> funnel information down; 2.) the trickle down effect of data that will
> lead you to one conclusion; 3. to vett.

--
☣ uǝlƃ

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: looking for a word

Vladimyr -

Good to hear your voice here again...

Rete Mirable (Latin: miraculous net) seems to be the term/concept *I* was looking for here.

I don't know if it has the persuasive nature Glen is searching for, or captures the full *diversity* of the interpenetrating "miraculous" nets, but it is great to find out there is an extant working term for these structures and the underlying processes supported. I'm also happy to hear of the term "counter-current exchange system" in place of my more colloquial "reverse backflow system", though I was describing what is known as a decanted system which therefore acted as a countercurrent multiplier system.

It is impressive that the term goes all the way back to Galen. Yogi Berra said it best: "You can see a lot just by looking."

I sometimes think I need to add to my google fu technique doing a simple rendition of the concept in question into Latin and then searching for a few variations on the result. I'm sure there is a Masters project in Natural Language processing or Computational Linguistics out there which has already implemented something like that? I doubt I would have hit on "miraculous" in this context but maybe a Latin scholar would know intuitively that "mirable" was a likely adjective to be used in this kind of situation?

- Steve

On 8/22/18 6:23 PM, Vladimyr wrote:

anastomosis(circulatory) is the progressive branching of arteries down to capillaries.
The flow in the trunk line is accommodated by the sum of volumes downstream.
When such a network meshes with another closed network and the fluids in each are flowing in opposite directions. a counter-current
exchange system reduces the difference in gradients i.e. gases, heat flow.
Rete Mirable , the miraculous network that was first discovered in Tuna used to keep the blood warm.
There are  many such systems in the human body. 
vladimyr
-----Original Message-----
From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ?
Sent: August-21-18 4:59 PM
To: FriAM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] looking for a word

Sorry for being vague.  By "matrixification", I made an attempt to suggest something like taking a single 1-dimensional thing (a tube) and splitting it into more than one thing, each of which is still 1-dimensional, but together approaching a higher dimension (2 or 3).

By "articulation", I intended something similar, taking something like a single tube and putting in *joints*, which might also provide branch points.  Two pipes connected by an angle will be more articulated than a single pipe (of the same length).  By extension, then, 3 pipes connected by a splitter will be more articulated than two pipes connected by an angle.

On 08/21/2018 02:36 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Matriculation does indeed seem to be related to "Matrix"  but 
apparently in the sense of embedding into a nourishing environment 
(womblike?) which makes some sense for the common use in "entering an 
institution such as a university or college".   I'm not sure what you 
meant by dimension reduction in this context?

You also mention "articulation" but my fumble-fingers had me finding 
"atriculation" instead and found (only?) in an urban dictionary: 1. To 
funnel information down; 2.) the trickle down effect of data that will 
lead you to one conclusion; 3. to vett.


--
☣ uǝlƃ

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: looking for a word

The Rete Mirable is two or more intimately woven systems that contain fluids. Fluids are in proximity but normally

never exchange contents, rather heat or gases flow/diffuse down to a lower concentration or gradient not the fluid.

Where the two systems engage, the gradient is the greatest where they terminate the gradient is near zero or equilibrium.

It is less than a perfect system in humans where a lymphatic system collects material leaking from capillaries. which also

collects cellular debris and provides a route for cancer cells to spread from organ to organ.

I have been preoccupied lately and my attendance has suffered. My apologies.

Vladimyr

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: August-24-18 11:52 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] looking for a word

Vladimyr -

Good to hear your voice here again...

Rete Mirable (Latin: miraculous net) seems to be the term/concept *I* was looking for here.

It is impressive that the term goes all the way back to Galen. Yogi Berra said it best: "You can see a lot just by looking."

- Steve

On 8/22/18 6:23 PM, Vladimyr wrote:

anastomosis(circulatory) is the progressive branching of arteries down to capillaries.

The flow in the trunk line is accommodated by the sum of volumes downstream.

When such a network meshes with another closed network and the fluids in each are flowing in opposite directions. a counter-current

exchange system reduces the difference in gradients i.e. gases, heat flow.

Rete Mirable , the miraculous network that was first discovered in Tuna used to keep the blood warm.

There are  many such systems in the human body.

vladimyr

-----Original Message-----

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of u?l? ?

Sent: August-21-18 4:59 PM

To: FriAM

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] looking for a word

Sorry for being vague.  By "matrixification", I made an attempt to suggest something like taking a single 1-dimensional thing (a tube) and splitting it into more than one thing, each of which is still 1-dimensional, but together approaching a higher dimension (2 or 3).

By "articulation", I intended something similar, taking something like a single tube and putting in *joints*, which might also provide branch points.  Two pipes connected by an angle will be more articulated than a single pipe (of the same length).  By extension, then, 3 pipes connected by a splitter will be more articulated than two pipes connected by an angle.

On 08/21/2018 02:36 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:

Matriculation does indeed seem to be related to "Matrix"  but

apparently in the sense of embedding into a nourishing environment

(womblike?) which makes some sense for the common use in "entering an

institution such as a university or college".   I'm not sure what you

meant by dimension reduction in this context?

You also mention "articulation" but my fumble-fingers had me finding

"atriculation" instead and found (only?) in an urban dictionary: 1. To

funnel information down; 2.) the trickle down effect of data that will

lead you to one conclusion; 3. to vett.

--

☣ uǝlƃ

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

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gepr

Re: looking for a word

Rete mirable would definitely not apply. It suffers from the same criticism I have of "plexus", the implication that the threads don't intersect but are braided. And anastomosis is wrong, too, because it's focus is on shunting, regardless of whether such shunting is large (e.g. surgical) or tiny (as a result of, say, perfusion), where its result may look like or have other superficial similarities to a stable, space-filling, morphogenetic purpose. It's reasonable to call the peri-portal subgraph anastomotic, but inappropriate for the peri-central subgraph where it looks much more like a plexus (to me, anyway). It seems plausible to me (with no credibility) that the extent of the shunting might be a function of stellate cells and/or endothelial fenestration, over and above any effects of growth factors. Anastomoses are simply too "physical" looking to provide that as an *name* for the more well-organized growth structures.

In that respect, the sense of "anastomosis" is very similar to "canalization" or "alluvium", though. It's like the somewhat fossilized end-result of some (complex) physical force.

Regardless, this has been a fantastic discussion. I think, for now, I'm going to stick with afferent and efferent filtrations ... and in persnickety environments, I can always switch back to plexuses.

On 08/27/2018 08:47 PM, Vladimyr wrote:

> The Rete Mirable is two or more intimately woven systems that contain fluids. Fluids are in proximity but normally
>
> never exchange contents, rather heat or gases flow/diffuse down to a lower concentration or gradient not the fluid.
>
> Where the two systems engage, the gradient is the greatest where they terminate the gradient is near zero or equilibrium.
>
>
>
> It is less than a perfect system in humans where a lymphatic system collects material leaking from capillaries. which also
>
> collects cellular debris and provides a route for cancer cells to spread from organ to organ.

uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

123