just the facts
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I suspect that if one were to conduct a survey about the belief that the US Government is trying to poison us all by flying these special airplanes at 30,000 feet to spray nasty chemical poisons (hence all those horrible chemtrails that you can clearly see in the sky), at least 40% of Santa Fe's fine inhabitants would be True Believers. No shit.
--Doug
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:02 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug Roberts
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In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2
Amazingly, Snopes doesn’t have anything about chemtrails. In fact, there is a whole forum controversy about what it MEANS that Snopes doesn’t have anything about chemtrails. Gotta stop thinking about this. Nick From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts -1 for factcheck.org: they don't say anything about chemtrails. On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 10:08 AM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote: +1 for http://www.factcheck.org/
-- Doug Roberts
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No, no! Keep thinking about it. Here, Wikipedia's got us covered:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemtrail_conspiracy_theory
These are fascinating insights into our society, and that general human tendency to glom on to a belief set and then hang on to it come Hell or High Water, rational cognition be damned. --Doug On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug Roberts
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Lather, apply Occam's razor, repeat. -- rec -- On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:18 AM, Nicholas Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
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That would suggest the willingness to apply rational cognition to the issue, which, as you suggest, is the whole point.
--Doug
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:30 AM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug Roberts
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
Of course, applying Occam's razor with an 18th century knowledge base yields "libertarianism".
On Saturday, April 6, 2013, Roger Critchlow wrote:
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So, by extrapolation to the average 21st century knowledge base, we're screwed, Occam's Razor-wise. At least in the United States where our public education system spews out illiteracy at an ever-increasing rate.
--Doug
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:33 AM, Patrick Reilly <[hidden email]> wrote: Of course, applying Occam's razor with an 18th century knowledge base yields "libertarianism".
Doug Roberts
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In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2
So how do we fund/organize an education system for all that
teaches critical thinking skills (if it's possible)? Especially
when faced with such phenomenon (from July 2012) as described in
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/answer-sheet/post/texas-gop-rejects-critical-thinking-skills-really/2012/07/08/gJQAHNpFXW_blog.html
(PS I haven't fact checked this).
-- Robert C On 4/6/13 11:33 AM, Douglas Roberts
wrote:
That would suggest the willingness to apply rational cognition to the issue, which, as you suggest, is the whole point. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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As I said: we're screwed. And we let it happen.
--Doug
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 11:58 AM, Robert J. Cordingley <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug Roberts
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This was big news last summer. Also, one cannot fail to recognize that it was the good Texas Christians who were behind the rejection of teaching critical thinking skills. A thinly-veiled move to prevent losing any Texas Good Christians to the critical thought process.
--Doug
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 12:00 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote: As I said: we're screwed. And we let it happen. Doug Roberts
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Robert -
Wow... what a *mixed bag* of *baby and bathwater*! My cynical, anti-Texas, anti-Right, anti-Christian, anti-Authoritarian side cringes at this kind of stuff... yet reading through it I find some gems of "truthiness" that are hard to ignore. This kind of rhetoric is clearly laced with innuendo, double-entendre and numerous "sly winks" about what they are really saying, so I am in no way tempted to believe that the framers or the proponents of this kind of stuff aren't trying to slip something past the "majority". However... I *do* share the implied mistrust of a "one size fits all" public education. (I know, *they* have their one "one size fits all", only it is a different size.) I am happy to live in a society that wants it's populace to be educated (or a nation that wants it's citizens to be?... subtle difference, but maybe important). I also accept that "standardizing" education (as with industrial processes) increases efficiency and generates a more uniform product. But I *don't* want the raising, education, and socialization of my children (or children of my friends and neighbors) to be based on a *factory* model. Nor do I *trust* a centralized authority to decide what "social standards" those children should be tried to be fit into. In this I am vaguely sympathetic with the radical GOP, tea-baggers, and libertarians. The text about "scientific theories" and "new evidence" all sounds good if I didn't know it was a thin disguise for "let the Creationists spout whatever crap they feel like and don't you dare challenge them". But in fact, I know that most of my own K-12 educators had little or NO understanding of Science as a discipline and culture, including the science teachers. Maybe *especially* the science teachers. Admittedly my educational milieu was somewhat impoverished by circumstance (small, rural/semi-rural). I'm afraid "Science" is taught in our public education system in a manner not all that different than if it were "Religion"... I believe in science, but I don't Believe in Science... I think the discussions *here* amongst people who *mostly* have 4 to 12 years of formal post-secondary education, and *mostly* in technical or scientific discipline indicates that getting a good grasp on what constitutes "proper science" is not as obvious as we want to think. Most of us were raised to Believe in Science I fear... This was big news last summer. Also, one cannot fail to recognize that it was the good Texas Christians who were behind the rejection of teaching critical thinking skills. A thinly-veiled move to prevent losing any Texas Good Christians to the critical thought process.I think this is part of an escalating "rhetorical arms race". While I'm not sympathetic with the Texas GOP fundamentalist Christian Right, I *do* understand how they (or others who I might be sympathetic with) might question their "opposition's" use of phrases like "Critical Thinking Skills". I watched my Gifted and Talented (and also gifted and talented) daughter go through public school with *very* capable and progressive teachers for the most part. About 1/4 times she would come home to tell me about what she had been learning in school, I was *appalled* at the *lack* of critical thinking that was being offered... She was being taught *by* rote, what was at the time essentially "Political Correctness". I don't think the message of the PC crowd was particularly off base, but the *methods* often lacked intellectual honesty. Fortunately it only took a little prompting on my part for her (and her younger, more grounded, but less academically stellar sister) to see through this. Both of them have very good critical thinking skills and for the life of me I can't tell that they were "taught" much if any of that in school. My favorite was when ElderdDotter came home in 6th grade from an after school meeting of the new "DARE" program, supposedly designed to combat early drug experimentation among her age group. They all but had them *chanting* "I will think for myself", "I will think for myself!", "I will think for myself!". They had *co-opted* the meme "I will think for myself" as the most *mindless* opposite possible. They also "seemed" to be working toward a "brown shirt" program to try to get kids to turn their parents in for drugs. I was not anywhere near this territory so the specifics of it did not threaten me personally, but the methodology and process were deeply disturbing. Fortunately my daughter *was* (and still is) pretty able to think for herself whether indoctrinated to claim she was or not. After she got through chanting "I will think for myself" (not literally, but nearly so) to me for a while... I simply asked her to listen to what she was saying and ask herself if there was anything oddly paradoxical... she twigged to it right away and slowly drifted out of the DARE program. She went on to experiment lightly with drugs but never got tangled up in them or the culture, while any number of the kids who continued to stand in front of the school principle and a police officer with glazed eyes chanting "I will think for myself" actually did fall into some pretty deep holes with drugs (and other unenlightened self-destructions). Hmm... I'd say their program had some problems. I'm assuming those kids parents didn't talk to their kids? Or they patted them on the head and gave them a gold star for "thinking for themselves!". Or they quickly ran and hid their stash of drugs from their kids. Or all three. Bottom line is that while this motley crue (Texas GOP) are clearly full of misbegotten nonsense, some of their "enemies" are as full of the same thing, only a different flavor. My enemy's enemy is not necessarily my friend. Ignore those who would claim that Creationism is Science and that *their* family-values are the only/correct ones, but don't imagine that you won't run afoul of the machines fueled to *fight* this kinda crap on your own pet issues. Wait until you are told *how* you have to frame touchy issues like abortion or transgendering or war by someone who you may or may not respect or agree with?
And it will be *we* who let it happen if/as/when we get *more* screwed. Actually I don't feel screwed. I feel like maybe 90% of our population is screwed... and while that is inconvenient and sad, I feel I have escaped most of it. Haven't you (Doug)? - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Yep, I think 90% is in the ballpark, but it's not the percentage as much as the trend which bothers me. That, plus the fact that "we" are just passively allowing the degradation of education, and the teaching of critical thought to continue as is in Texas, and other parts of the religion-dominated regions of our country.
Don't see the religion factor? Look again.
--Doug On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 1:34 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug Roberts
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Yep, I think 90% is in the ballpark, but it's not the percentage as much as the trend which bothers me. That, plus the fact that "we" are just passively allowing the degradation of education, and the teaching of critical thought to continue as is in Texas, and other parts of the religion-dominated regions of our country.No, I do see the strong correlation with religion... in this case various forms of Christianity. The *other* Abrahamic (Ibrahamic) religions (Islam, Judaism, and variants) seem just as bad. I honestly don't have enough experience with any others... the *eastern* religions in their original form look more like mystical philosophical teachings than what I'm used to, and it is easy enough to cherry pick from their various translated writings to get a good warm fuzzy feeling, but the westernized versions (in particular American Buddhism) is infected with the very same stuff that buggers us in the Abrahamics... but that may be more about *us* than about the original religions/spiritual-paths/philosophies? On the flip side, I *still* insist that a lot of the "anti-religious" rhetoric is sadly it's own form of religion... My ex- M-in-Law, a staunch Catholic who pretty much thought she knew more than anyone (excepting the Pope, cuz he was speshul) about the "Truth" had a real bone to pick with the "Secular Humanists". At the time I thought she was *just* nuts... but since then I have come to realize that while she *was* nuts, she might have known something. While *I* do ascribe to the same tenets ( from Wikipedia ... Humanism embraces human reason, ethics, social justice and philosophical naturalism, whilst specifically rejecting religious dogma, supernaturalism, pseudoscience or superstition as the basis of morality and decision making) I find that many self-avowed Humanists are Jack-Humanists, discarding reason and ethics and social justice when *their* convenience or comfort is on the line. My point, vaguely, is that I think my enemy's (fundamentalist right-wing whackos) enemies (overzealous, selfish, lazy, thoughtless goofballs hiding under the trappings of progressive, liberal, and humanist thinking) are not my friends either. Also from Wikipedia Secular Humanism: the humanist life stance emphasizes the unique responsibility facing humanity and the ethical consequences of human decisions. Fundamental to the concept of secular humanism is the strongly held viewpoint that ideology—be it religious or political—must be thoroughly examined by each individual and not simply accepted or rejected on faith Too many of us treat our irreligion and even rational skepticism as if it were faith itself. We mouth the words of thorough examination while blindly following the herd of other skeptics and rationalists, etc. The failure in our self-enlightenment as a species or culture may be most painfully evidenced in the places you point, but I'm afraid it runs through us more completely. With very few exceptions, I feel we are *all* just seeking a choir to join so that we can preach to ourselves. In that sense, your comment that "we are screwed, and we let it happen" gets upgraded to "we are screwed and we are doing it to ourselves". Said another way, if all the religious screwballs got wiped off the planet (or had an epiphany to our liking) tomorrow, we would only be marginally better off. At best, I'd call it, "a good start" but at worst, I fear we would discover that lurking inside of the rest of is an "ignorant, irrational tyrant" just waiting for the field of the bigger bullies to leave the field so we can take over the playground. But then, if I watch the "birds and the bees" in their (springtime now!) dance, I realize that this kind of continuous struggle for "predicting the future by creating it" is just what life itself is about. - Steve ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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Fortunately we Pastafarian men of the cloth (tablecloth) do not proselytize.
--Doug
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 2:31 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug Roberts
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I'm gluten-curious and avoid ballpark hot dogs.
On Saturday, April 6, 2013, Douglas Roberts wrote: Fortunately we Pastafarian men of the cloth (tablecloth) do not proselytize. -- The information contained in this transmission may contain privileged and confidential information. It is intended only for the use of the person(s) named above. If you are not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any review, dissemination, distribution or duplication of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you are not the intended recipient, please contact the sender by reply email and destroy all copies of the original message. To reply to our email administrator directly, please send an email to [hidden email]. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2
Apropos of nothing, I was looking at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Major_religious_groups the other day and discovered that the Rastafari outnumber the Unitarians by about 70,000 adherents. They are locked in battle for the last place on that particular list, though they both outnumber the Scientologists.
And the article notes that most of the numbers are more or less made up. -- rec -- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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I'm deeply insulted that my church was not given mentioned. After all, He boiled for our sins.
--Doug
On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 2:50 PM, Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]> wrote:
Doug Roberts
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
Roger -
I was recently pulled up short when I realized that the Rastafarians held Hailie Selassie as a contemporary Messiah, the Christian God embodied. I had very romantic notions about the Rastafarian movement based almost entirely on listening to Bob Marley's music. The deliverer of this ephiphany is a friend (born Ethiopia, raised Egypt/Australia) whose father was one of those who risked their lives to depose Selassie back in the day. I guess I didn't listen closely enough to Marley's Lyrics. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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In the recent documentary "Marley" there's footage of Haile Selassie's visit to Jamaica.
Ed __________ Ed Angel Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab) Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico 1017 Sierra Pinon On Apr 6, 2013, at 3:09 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Ahh, youth! On Sat, Apr 6, 2013 at 3:09 PM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D. President, Center for Emergent Diplomacy Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA [hidden email] mobile: (303) 859-5609 skype: merlelefkoff ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com |
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