[in|ex]tensional effects on (English) language

[gepr]

Eye-tracking study finds depression memes act like visual magnets for people experiencing depressive symptoms
https://www.psypost.org/2020/12/eye-tracking-study-finds-depression-memes-act-like-visual-magnets-for-people-experiencing-depressive-symptoms-58939

"It also seems that this group are less interested in generally humorous memes unrelated to the depression experience,"

That just *sounds* wrong to me. I would've written "this group is". But according to this website: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/is-vs-are/

"But even in American English, a collective noun can take are when you need to emphasize the individual members of the group."

Perhaps the important thing, here, is that this "group" was classed together from the outside. The grouping of "depressed people" is very susceptible to criticism and, I'd bet money, derived from external self-reported expressions. So by saying "this group are", the authors might be expressing that, even though we've grouped them thusly, that grouping is extensional/phenomenal, not intensional/generative. So they really should retain their plural status and not be singularized into the group.

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[Steve Smith]

↙↙↙ uǝlƃ -
> Eye-tracking study finds depression memes act like visual magnets for people experiencing depressive symptoms
> https://www.psypost.org/2020/12/eye-tracking-study-finds-depression-memes-act-like-visual-magnets-for-people-experiencing-depressive-symptoms-58939
>
> "It also seems that this group are less interested in generally humorous memes unrelated to the depression experience,"
Nice corrollary (ally?) to "doomscrolling" and "cassandrafreude"?   I
suspect most of my own doomscrolling is an attempt to higrade/mine for
nuggets of cassandrafreude which triggers similar neurochemistry to that
I described previously in response to your speculations about
conspiracies, inner-truthiness, and hacktivism.
>
> That just *sounds* wrong to me. I would've written "this group is". But according to this website: https://www.grammarly.com/blog/is-vs-are/
>
> "But even in American English, a collective noun can take are when you need to emphasize the individual members of the group."
>
> Perhaps the important thing, here, is that this "group" was classed together from the outside. The grouping of "depressed people" is very susceptible to criticism and, I'd bet money, derived from external self-reported expressions. So by saying "this group are", the authors might be expressing that, even though we've grouped them thusly, that grouping is extensional/phenomenal, not intensional/generative. So they really should retain their plural status and not be singularized into the group.

Interesting analysis.  I concur but tentatively until I can find some
more examples.   This distinction/tension of collectivizing/conflating
the singular and vice-versa might be a central theme to many of our
current social maladies.

- Steve


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[David Eric Smith]

I remember the first time I saw this UK/US are/is contrast, and it seemed so weird.

It was in an article on Williams Syndrome children, which included some transcript of the babble from one of them.  The babble included “. . . and our bank are . . . “, where the . . . is a bunch of stuff I don’t remember now (shows what catches with me).  The writer of the article mentioned — which was the center of his point — that while there was no semantic sense in the babble, the grammar was flawless, and he had to explain to US readers, the bank (financial institution) is referred to with the plural as a collective noun for its members.

I don’t know if all-y’all (singular is y’all) remember 

https://www.withouthotair.com/

but its author takes great joy in his page-margin notes in contrasting “English” with “American” as two distinct languages.

Eric

On Dec 29, 2020, at 12:57 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eye-tracking study finds depression memes act like visual magnets for people experiencing depressive symptoms
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.psypost.org%2f2020%2f12%2feye-tracking-study-finds-depression-memes-act-like-visual-magnets-for-people-experiencing-depressive-symptoms-58939&c=E,1,MEp1i36gIPJ9Cd9ihdah2BcW_8BhwoZzXIVetLCl6Qz7Mok2fWefQ-H2s7RxylJljZQ1OVJgcAmyn_y2KlEmzecC9cTSGPZ-nXs-TBNY40dm1KWx_VJNHE9rQqkf&typo=1

"It also seems that this group are less interested in generally humorous memes unrelated to the depression experience,"

That just *sounds* wrong to me. I would've written "this group is". But according to this website: https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.grammarly.com%2fblog%2fis-vs-are%2f&c=E,1,GLtZF7meehi99IVm85KMUp49wGAW6Wf47Xl3ZH4YWWBuDsR9AHMJVIK4CaEPeR9AR-QAAOji9IlYf4QrQVHT0l8B9O6Jn3ZcPIUMtTduWgI1mBJB3UcE8Q4i&typo=1

"But even in American English, a collective noun can take are when you need to emphasize the individual members of the group."

Perhaps the important thing, here, is that this "group" was classed together from the outside. The grouping of "depressed people" is very susceptible to criticism and, I'd bet money, derived from external self-reported expressions. So by saying "this group are", the authors might be expressing that, even though we've grouped them thusly, that grouping is extensional/phenomenal, not intensional/generative. So they really should retain their plural status and not be singularized into the group.

--
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[thompnickson2]

Eg, “Manchester United are dominating the premier league.”

 

Herewith the entry from Wikipedia.  Clear as mud.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_and_British_English_grammatical_differences#Subject-verb_agreement 

 

n

 

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

 

 

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2020 12:59 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] [in|ex]tensional effects on (English) language

 

I remember the first time I saw this UK/US are/is contrast, and it seemed so weird.

 

It was in an article on Williams Syndrome children, which included some transcript of the babble from one of them.  The babble included “. . . and our bank are . . . “, where the . . . is a bunch of stuff I don’t remember now (shows what catches with me).  The writer of the article mentioned — which was the center of his point — that while there was no semantic sense in the babble, the grammar was flawless, and he had to explain to US readers, the bank (financial institution) is referred to with the plural as a collective noun for its members.

 

I don’t know if all-y’all (singular is y’all) remember 

https://www.withouthotair.com/

but its author takes great joy in his page-margin notes in contrasting “English” with “American” as two distinct languages.

 

Eric

 

 

On Dec 29, 2020, at 12:57 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:

 

Eye-tracking study finds depression memes act like visual magnets for people experiencing depressive symptoms
https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.psypost.org%2f2020%2f12%2feye-tracking-study-finds-depression-memes-act-like-visual-magnets-for-people-experiencing-depressive-symptoms-58939&c=E,1,MEp1i36gIPJ9Cd9ihdah2BcW_8BhwoZzXIVetLCl6Qz7Mok2fWefQ-H2s7RxylJljZQ1OVJgcAmyn_y2KlEmzecC9cTSGPZ-nXs-TBNY40dm1KWx_VJNHE9rQqkf&typo=1

"It also seems that this group are less interested in generally humorous memes unrelated to the depression experience,"

That just *sounds* wrong to me. I would've written "this group is". But according to this website: https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwww.grammarly.com%2fblog%2fis-vs-are%2f&c=E,1,GLtZF7meehi99IVm85KMUp49wGAW6Wf47Xl3ZH4YWWBuDsR9AHMJVIK4CaEPeR9AR-QAAOji9IlYf4QrQVHT0l8B9O6Jn3ZcPIUMtTduWgI1mBJB3UcE8Q4i&typo=1

"But even in American English, a collective noun can take are when you need to emphasize the individual members of the group."

Perhaps the important thing, here, is that this "group" was classed together from the outside. The grouping of "depressed people" is very susceptible to criticism and, I'd bet money, derived from external self-reported expressions. So by saying "this group are", the authors might be expressing that, even though we've grouped them thusly, that grouping is extensional/phenomenal, not intensional/generative. So they really should retain their plural status and not be singularized into the group.

--
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