Friam

ill-conceived question

Classic

List

Threaded

52 messages Options

123

thompnickson2

ill-conceived question

Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: ill-conceived question

Nick,

I suspect that if people only did what they 'need to do' the economy would collapse.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Russ Abbott

Re: ill-conceived question

Nick, What lessons do you take away from the rat experiment? Certainly, breeders can use space differently from natural populations. But that isn't surprising. If the natural density of a rat population is 200/quarter acre, what do you make of that, and why do you think it's important?

P.S. I'm assuming that we don't have to argue too much about what "natural density" means. Of course, it will differ depending on circumstances such as weather, food availability, etc. But I assume that's not your point.

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 9:47 AM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,

I suspect that if people only did what they 'need to do' the economy would collapse.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

--
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick writes:

< It seems to me that the difference between a “healthy” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do? >

It is true I don’t need a haircut. But there’s gal who cuts my hair and her husband. She has no business. Her husband teaches for one of those private tutoring companies. Their household, I expect, has no incoming income except for the small amount of small business loans they might be able to get, unemployment, and federal relief. That’s not sustainable even if they don’t pay rent for a few months.

Marcus

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Hey Nick, did you mean your question to apply to mostly the USA? Europe? Asia? Africa? South America? Although I keep up a little bit with what's going on in the USA and a bit more about Europe, lately my familiarity is more with Ecuador and to a lesser extent the rest of South America. Down here, we are far from being in a sustainable mode. I can drive one day a week. Supermarkets are open only until 1:00 pm, nationwide curfews from 2:00 pm until 5:30 am. Open questions abound: will farmers plant anything during the lockdown? when will the country allow imports again?

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 11:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

I hope it didn't sound like I was yelling at you, Nick :-) Given the state of the economy here in northern South America, your question a little too USA-centric. And my response was obviously from a different perspective. I actually don't know what the state of the US economy is right now. For example, are a large percentage of the populace who have to be physically at their job site back to work now? I'm not talking about paper pushers (knowledge workers) who can work remotely. Are farmers in the field planting or harvesting crops? Are there enough people tending to the power grid? the water systems? Basic stuff. That's the economy that I'm concerned with.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 11:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by Russ Abbott

Ah, Russ,

It’s great to hear from you, again. One of the best things I ever wrote came about because of a year of arguing with you!

The lesson I take is that the designs for life maintenance have nothing to do with the designs for happiness. We are not designed to be happy; we are designed to eke out an existence on a semi-arid plain within a small group surrounded by hostile groups. I.e, we are designed to be miserable. So if we are to be happy, amidst plenty, we have to make choices – collective choices.

For the details of the rat experiment, look at page 224 in https://www.researchgate.net/publication/238356686_A_Utopian_perspective_on_ecology_and_development

Please let me know if it is unreadable.

Oh, just to head off some flames from that famous quasi=libertarian dragon, Dave (Hi, Dave!), I make no pretense to knowing HOW to make collective choices. I just know that we will make them, one way or another. Again I commend to you all Jim Rutt’s recent podcast on consensus and policy.

Thanks again, Russ, for all your help with my writing.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Russ Abbott
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:17 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-- Russ Abbott
Professor, Computer Science
California State University, Los Angeles

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 9:47 AM Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick,

I suspect that if people only did what they 'need to do' the economy would collapse.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

--
Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

< You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. >

Maybe the rats were right?

Marcus

thompnickson2

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Marcus, Gary,

Thanks for responding. I stipulate that mine is the sort of question that could only be asked by a person too privileged to be taken seriously. But such people should occasionally be heard, so I was asking to heard. And you heard me. Thanks.

Let’s put it another way. What we call the economy is kind of [like] an addiction to speed. Calling it an addiction highlights the fact that withdrawal is a hideous experience that can kill you.

Allow me a Marxist sort of thought. In whose interest is it to increase the velocity of transactions in the marketplace? It is in the interest of the corporations and governments that skim off those transactions. If we COULD slow down the rate of transactions without killing ourselves, who would suffer? Large organizations that tax those transactions. (I think of corporate profit as a tax.) That is why the government just sent me 2400 dollars that I absolutely don’t need. The letter from Donald say, “Go thou Nick into the market place and rush about so I may tax thee.”

This Marxist thought is similar to another. Why in the sixties did THEY allow feminism to escape from the bottle since the 19^th century. Because THEY realized that if THEY could turn intrafamily and intra community transactions into market place transactions then the same work (raising families) could be taxed two or three times as often.

THEY are bastards. Why are we helping THEM do their work. Or are WE THEY?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 11:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels

Well, in a sense that’s correct. But their method of “birth control” is not one that I am prepared to take as a model. Just imagine the worst sort of dystopian post apocalyptic novel. See the description of the Calhoun experiment on p 224.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

Maybe the rats were right?

Marcus

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: ill-conceived question

The human civilization that has developed over the last handful of millennia is a pretty thin veneer over the basic drives that control the rats' behavior. Like most of us, I've grown up dependent on that thin veneer, and would sorely miss it :-) I'm not very optimistic that it will survive, but I rather hope it does.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 1:38 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Well, in a sense that’s correct. But their method of “birth control” is not one that I am prepared to take as a model. Just imagine the worst sort of dystopian post apocalyptic novel. See the description of the Calhoun experiment on p 224.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

< You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. >

Maybe the rats were right?

Marcus
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Jochen Fromm-5

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

The economy is collapsing right now. It has positive side effects like clean air in L.A. and Beijing, but right now it is collapsing.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>

Date: 5/2/20 18:47 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

Nick,

I suspect that if people only did what they 'need to do' the economy would collapse.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by Frank Wimberly-2

Example of the government just getting in the way.

https://www.lansingcitypulse.com/stories/msu-researchers-macgyver-new-covid-19-test-but-wait-for-green-light,14290

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Jochen Fromm <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, May 2, 2020 at 12:19 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

The economy is collapsing right now. It has positive side effects like clean air in L.A. and Beijing, but right now it is collapsing.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>

Date: 5/2/20 18:47 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

Nick,

I suspect that if people only did what they 'need to do' the economy would collapse.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

thompnickson2

Re: ill-conceived question

“pent up energy of academic labs”

What a thought!

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 1:32 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

Example of the government just getting in the way.

https://www.lansingcitypulse.com/stories/msu-researchers-macgyver-new-covid-19-test-but-wait-for-green-light,14290

The economy is collapsing right now. It has positive side effects like clean air in L.A. and Beijing, but right now it is collapsing.

-J.

-------- Original message --------

From: Frank Wimberly <[hidden email]>

Date: 5/2/20 18:47 (GMT+01:00)

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

Nick,

I suspect that if people only did what they 'need to do' the economy would collapse.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 10:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Prof David West

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick,

The dragon asks:

in whose interest was the lock down? 32 Billionaires — that I know of from press reports — have increased their net wealth by as much as 10-20%. Large corporations will have their profits protected, so much so that one of the "rules" of the bailout money is that when corporate profits for the year are higher than last year, no bonuses may be paid from the bailout money. But money is fungible, so expect the bonuses to be paid - from other sources of funding of course.

And who gets the "health benefit" from the lock down? The well-to-do — including, probably, a large majority of FRIAM members — not the blue collar meat packers or the pink collar grocery clerks.

asketh Puff

On Sat, May 2, 2020, at 12:30 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Marcus, Gary,

Thanks for responding. I stipulate that mine is the sort of question that could only be asked by a person too privileged to be taken seriously. But such people should occasionally be heard, so I was asking to heard. And you heard me. Thanks.

Let’s put it another way. What we call the economy is kind of [like] an addiction to speed. Calling it an addiction highlights the fact that withdrawal is a hideous experience that can kill you.

Allow me a Marxist sort of thought. In whose interest is it to increase the velocity of transactions in the marketplace? It is in the interest of the corporations and governments that skim off those transactions. If we COULD slow down the rate of transactions without killing ourselves, who would suffer? Large organizations that tax those transactions. (I think of corporate profit as a tax.) That is why the government just sent me 2400 dollars that I absolutely don’t need. The letter from Donald say, “Go thou Nick into the market place and rush about so I may tax thee.”

This Marxist thought is similar to another. Why in the sixties did THEY allow feminism to escape from the bottle since the 19^th century. Because THEY realized that if THEY could turn intrafamily and intra community transactions into market place transactions then the same work (raising families) could be taxed two or three times as often.

THEY are bastards. Why are we helping THEM do their work. Or are WE THEY?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 11:38 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

Hey Nick, did you mean your question to apply to mostly the USA? Europe? Asia? Africa? South America? Although I keep up a little bit with what's going on in the USA and a bit more about Europe, lately my familiarity is more with Ecuador and to a lesser extent the rest of South America. Down here, we are far from being in a sustainable mode. I can drive one day a week. Supermarkets are open only until 1:00 pm, nationwide curfews from 2:00 pm until 5:30 am. Open questions abound: will farmers plant anything during the lockdown? when will the country allow imports again?

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 11:34 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Colleagues,

I have asked this question before and nobody has responded (for clear and good reasons, no doubt) but I thought I would ask it again. What exactly is this economy we are bent on reviving? What exactly is the difference in human activity between our present state and a revived economy. We can go to bars and concerts and football games? Is that the economy we are reviving? It seems to me that the difference between a “healty” economy and our present status consists possibly in nothing more than a lot of people frantically rushing about doing things they don’t really need to do?

You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. Infant mortality, etc., was appalling. Carnage. In the same space, a competent lab breeding organization could have kept a population of tens of thousands.

Don’t yell at me. What fundamental proposition about economics do I not understand?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Prof David West

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

I once taught an honors course, with Father Smith at St. Thomas on the Anthropology and Theology of War. One of the prime forces behind war — since prehistory — had been nothing more than birth control.

davew

On Sat, May 2, 2020, at 12:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Well, in a sense that’s correct. But their method of “birth control” is not one that I am prepared to take as a model. Just imagine the worst sort of dystopian post apocalyptic novel. See the description of the Calhoun experiment on p 224.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

< You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. >

Maybe the rats were right?

Marcus
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

thompnickson2

Re: ill-conceived question

Hi, Dave,

Given that the super rich have the resiliency to respond to any crisis, I have a hard time imagining anything that would disadvantage them EXCEPT taxing the living daylights out of them. We did pretty well on 90% marginal tax rates.

I agree about the White Quarantine.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 3:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

davew

On Sat, May 2, 2020, at 12:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Well, in a sense that’s correct. But their method of “birth control” is not one that I am prepared to take as a model. Just imagine the worst sort of dystopian post apocalyptic novel. See the description of the Calhoun experiment on p 224.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

< You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. >

Maybe the rats were right?

Marcus
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: ill-conceived question

Would the rich, with proportionally more in the stock market, be disadvantaged by drops in stock prices? I suppose, on the other hand, they would tend to have enough cash or equivalent to to take advantage of the price drops to buy stocks at reduced prices.

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 5:02 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Dave,

Given that the super rich have the resiliency to respond to any crisis, I have a hard time imagining anything that would disadvantage them EXCEPT taxing the living daylights out of them. We did pretty well on 90% marginal tax rates.

I agree about the White Quarantine.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 3:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

I once taught an honors course, with Father Smith at St. Thomas on the Anthropology and Theology of War. One of the prime forces behind war — since prehistory — had been nothing more than birth control.

davew

On Sat, May 2, 2020, at 12:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
Well, in a sense that’s correct. But their method of “birth control” is not one that I am prepared to take as a model. Just imagine the worst sort of dystopian post apocalyptic novel. See the description of the Calhoun experiment on p 224.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:15 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

< You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. >

Maybe the rats were right?

Marcus
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: ill-conceived question

Krugman provides an analysis..

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/30/opinion/economy-stock-market-coronavirus.html

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Gary Schiltz <[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Date: Saturday, May 2, 2020 at 3:13 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

On Sat, May 2, 2020 at 5:02 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Dave,

Given that the super rich have the resiliency to respond to any crisis, I have a hard time imagining anything that would disadvantage them EXCEPT taxing the living daylights out of them. We did pretty well on 90% marginal tax rates.

I agree about the White Quarantine.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 3:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

I once taught an honors course, with Father Smith at St. Thomas on the Anthropology and Theology of War. One of the prime forces behind war — since prehistory — had been nothing more than birth control.

davew

On Sat, May 2, 2020, at 12:37 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Well, in a sense that’s correct. But their method of “birth control” is not one that I am prepared to take as a model. Just imagine the worst sort of dystopian post apocalyptic novel. See the description of the Calhoun experiment on p 224.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:15 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

< You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. >

Maybe the rats were right?

Marcus

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/

Steve Smith

Re: ill-conceived question

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Dave -

I once taught an honors course, with Father Smith at St. Thomas on the Anthropology and Theology of War. One of the prime forces behind war — since prehistory — had been nothing more than birth control.

Do you meant literally *birth* and *control*, or rather *population* and *reduction*?

The more literal usage works well too. Controlling Births. I think much warfare culminates (or did before modernish times) in the victors killing the men and raping/impregnating and enslaving the women either in-place, inhabiting the conquered lands or taking them back to their homeland. Children alternatively would have been killed or enslaved. Thus the genetic heritage of Genghis Khan...

One step more sophisticated than the rats?

I don't think we have to go there, no matter how much the gun hoarders want their chance at being unequivocally "on top" at least for one round of the grande iterated prisoner's dilemma that is human civilization.

- Steve

Well, in a sense that’s correct. But their method of “birth control” is not one that I am prepared to take as a model. Just imagine the worst sort of dystopian post apocalyptic novel. See the description of the Calhoun experiment on p 224.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels

Sent: Saturday, May 2, 2020 12:15 PM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ill-conceived question

< You recall that I invoked as a model that experiment in which 24 rats were put in a quarter acre enclosure in Baltimore and fed and watered and protected to see how the population would develop. They never got above two hundred. >

Maybe the rats were right?

Marcus

.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam

unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
.-. .- -. -.. --- -- -..-. -.. --- - ... -..-. .- -. -.. -..-. -.. .- ... .... . ...
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ 

123