ideas are lies

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ideas are lies

gepr
Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
https://evonomics.com/why-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie/
"So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
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Re: ideas are lies

Eric Charles-2
This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.

Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
  • Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
  • According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is always a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
  • So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably punishment. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
  • But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We lie to ourselves.
  • According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
  • power relations qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
  • On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
  • Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
  • To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
  • Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we think probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
  • The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our own sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.

  • The alternative is that free-market ideas do promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)


On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
https://evonomics.com/why-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie/
"So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
--
glen ⛧

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Re: ideas are lies

Patrick Reilly
In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense. 

The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.

Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .

Libertarianism is nonsense.

----   Pat

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email]> wrote:
This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.

Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
  • Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
  • According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is always a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
  • So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably punishment. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
  • But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We lie to ourselves.
  • According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
  • power relations qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
  • On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
  • Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
  • To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
  • Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we think probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
  • The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our own sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.

  • The alternative is that free-market ideas do promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)


On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email]> wrote:
Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
https://evonomics.com/why-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie/
"So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
--
glen ⛧

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Re: ideas are lies

gepr
Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.

It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.

I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.


[⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.

On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:

> In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense. 
>
> The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.
>
> Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .
>
> Libertarianism is nonsense.
>
> ----   Pat
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.
>
>     Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
>
>       * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
>       * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
>       * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
>       * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
>       * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
>       * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
>       * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
>       * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
>       * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
>       * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
>       *
>
>         The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.
>
>       * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
>
>     Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
>     how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)
>
>
>     Eric C
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
>     On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
>         https://evonomics.com/why-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie/
>         "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
>         --
>         glen ⛧
>
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Re: ideas are lies

David Eric Smith
Yeah, agree with Pat, agree with Glen.

I will say it in a way that seems inevitably to be ruder, though I don’t wish to be rude.  I find libertarian thinking, in any forms I have encountered that have agency in the world, to be willfully disingenuous about the things that actually cause problems.

A lot of this would not occur in a world where people have to build something that operationalizes whatever they say in words.  Nod to Marcus’s comments about the virtue of cashing out thoughts in algorithms.

For years I wanted to write a paper called “There’s no such thing as a free market”, but I couldn’t find anything new to say that wasn’t already quite well said, and deliberately ignored, in extant discourse.  Define a “free market”, with the intended Chicago-economists’ notion of “free of coercive or more generally intrusive power”, which I will hold them to since they want to invoke Arrow’s and Hahn’s and Debreu’s existence proofs of optimal allocations.  Build me the social algorithm by which every action that I take, in each small moment of any day, that will ever have effects on me or anybody else anywhere, has all those consequences fully known to us all, and fully and fairly negotiated, before the next action I take (turn on the tap, throw a piece of plastic in the trash, start the engine of the car, eat food produced in a way that degrades land, use a battery with materials mined in Mongolia.)  The absurdity of the concept is so overwhelming that I can’t help but respond to people who treat it as existing as if they mean to be dishonest.  Everything else that isn’t within that perfect-costless-contract model is “externalities”.  Those include, ignorance, power, non-responsibility for consequences, non-existence or unenforcibility of laws, and on and on and on.

That, to me, is where the problems occur, and a good-faith conversation engages with all the clarity we don’t have to deal with them.

I also think Adam Smith’s name is taken in vain, again in a sleight of hand that switches intents of words that sound the same.  One can read his arguments, made in the context of his time and the power structures most active then, as an argument that decentralized optimization can do many things that centralized planning can’t, or that deliberately oppressive power structures such as churches or church/state complexes actively degrade.  As I understand it, Smith made all sorts of conditions about morally grounded societies, some kind of mechanism for regulation against abuses, etc.  Not to mention it was mostly agrarian, pre-financial, and the power all but the fewest people could accumulate was extremely limited.  Much of Smith’s argument has a similar flavor, as a problem-solving analysis, to Walter Bagehot’s later writing in Lombard Street, about the better performance of decentralized banking with fractional-reserve lending.  In context, they make a lot of sense.  Quoted as scripture in contexts where the words would represent quite different choices, they can be given all sorts of meanings that a counterpart to Smith, suffering under today’s abuses, would not espouse.

I bother to write that because, with the question of how to handle the Coney Barrett appointment, there is a thing I don’t know how to A) think through, or B) express properly, and I don’t know which of those it is.

By the accounts of people who follow such things professionally, she is a capable jurist and a decent person.  I can believe that.  Interestingly, having had some of the old interviews of Scalia and Ginsburg played for me in the past week (great watching if you want to hear an advocacy of originalism and living-text made by people with skin and brain in the game), Scalia seems to stand for many not only sensible, but even decent positions.  

However, in the creep that destroys the world, what are the arguments about how it should play out and how it does?

I can see one argument for “originalism” as being that those who ratified the constitution in 1788 had suffered more, risked more, and thought more, than an average modern judge, and what they intended things to mean should not lightly be discarded by whoever comes along in each new generation.  I think that would be Scalia’s argument, to the effect that the power of judges to re-architect the country should be limited by the constitution, which it is the job of congress to amend (come back to that in a minute).

But then how does that work?  There was all kinds of stuff that didn’t exist in 1788.  So how does it work out that the right-aligned jurists consistently come down on the side of rulings that give those who have excessively concentrated power the collaboration of the law in concentrating that power — I take this to be Pat’s assertion, and I agree — no matter how destructive the means (here I mean citizens united, nullification of the pre-reporting requirement in the voting rights act, whatever that was, but probably lots more that I would know if I knew this area), while those who do not have concentrated power do not have the law as protection from oppressive use by those who do have it?  I don’t see how one gets from “originalism” to Citizens United.  

And to the extent that ACB is considered a studious adherent to Scalia’s originalism, but with less than Scalia’s originality in recognizing important times to deviate, she is expected to be more mechanical in driving the style of decisions people expected from him.  But the mismatch between the rhetoric, and the cumulative effects on the role of law in the society, seem drastic after these many decades.

Which brings us to the wider question (which a scientist would not pursue, knowing that he needs to focus on refining the accuracy of one point of data):  What the hell is taking place in the large-scale play of power in this country around this period?

Here are some things I have heard that seem valid, granting that I don’t have expertise to judge.

1.  For a party to control congress requires the coordination or coercion of some 260 or so people, which even the more corrupt and authoritarian societies can struggle to achieve.
2. An organ like SCOTUS has 9 people and votes by majority.  The control role may be more limited, but the numbers are certainly a lot smaller.
3. I heard yesterday from Durbin that the senate passed 22 pieces of law last year.  Certainly none of them addressing important ways in which our society has changed since 1788 that would reflect a new role for law.  I think the big one was the tax cut for the rich.  There were probably also some farm bill things, which from my reading of the farm columns involve some extraordinary debt-financed bailouts to try to buy republican votes for this election.  MMcC calls himself “the grim reaper”, to boast that he allows nothing to be done.
4. So it seems to me not unfair to say that the R position these days is to do no work themselves, and to block any work the Ds try to do, so that the congress does as close to nothing as possible.
5. This means that legislating has now been bounced to the courts, with SCOTUS as the court of last appeal.  Rather than write laws to address needs, the judges are asked to issue “interpretations” of ancient law for modern problems, and thus de facto define what the modern law is, bypassing congress.
6. No wonder it is such an ultra-high priority for Rs to stack every court they can, and perhaps also explicable that it is less of a priority for Ds, since they wouldn’t mind using the congress to do things, and so are not so exclusively focused on SCOTUS as a locus of control.   What “the voters” think is not something I find organic, as there is a highly sophisticated machinery to install what “the voters” think.  

So if one wanted a senate hearing on the ACB appointment that meant no disrespect to the person, but was about the substance of both her judicial method, and the context of power dynamics in which it will be applied, the above list seems to me to be where the causality lies.

Even if there were politicians who could speak plainly (rather than in the ultra-sterilized talk that is required these days), I can’t imagine a conversation’s being transacted in that frame.  Yet, short of that frame, I don’t see what else meaningfully addresses important sources of near-existential problems for the governance of the US.

I guess that wandered off the strict thread.

Eric


> On Sep 28, 2020, at 11:42 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.
>
> It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.
>
> I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.
>
>
> [⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.
>
> On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
>> In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense.
>>
>> The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.
>>
>> Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .
>>
>> Libertarianism is nonsense.
>>
>> ----   Pat
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>    This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.
>>
>>    Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
>>
>>      * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
>>      * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
>>      * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
>>      * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
>>      * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
>>      * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
>>      * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
>>      * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
>>      * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
>>      * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
>>      *
>>
>>        The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.
>>
>>      * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
>>
>>    Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
>>    how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)
>>
>>
>>    Eric C
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>    On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>        Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
>>        https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fevonomics.com%2fwhy-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie%2f&c=E,1,d2TnMVUh7KVPhp7lLOjPS60gXNNEZz6qiD8G3plDleoUYApuONZKAEuZlWeuhTTYFPFEb1-lRiWwHFw2gWpRDcvIRibx9tM6OuExB8uwHyCGDI8ucukQCaEx&typo=1
>>        "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
>>        --
>>        glen ⛧
>>
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Re: ideas are lies

thompnickson2
EricS,

Not stray at all.  I am glad we are having this discussion.

As to the supreme ct pick, I thought that this interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yjTEdZ81lI&feature=emb_rel_end

might be a little consoling,  Focus on the last part where there is back and forth between her and the moderator.  She LISTENS.  Well, at least she nods and gives eyecontact.  As somebody who has a hard time doing either of those things, I admire it.  

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
 


-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 11:17 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ideas are lies

Yeah, agree with Pat, agree with Glen.

I will say it in a way that seems inevitably to be ruder, though I don’t wish to be rude.  I find libertarian thinking, in any forms I have encountered that have agency in the world, to be willfully disingenuous about the things that actually cause problems.

A lot of this would not occur in a world where people have to build something that operationalizes whatever they say in words.  Nod to Marcus’s comments about the virtue of cashing out thoughts in algorithms.

For years I wanted to write a paper called “There’s no such thing as a free market”, but I couldn’t find anything new to say that wasn’t already quite well said, and deliberately ignored, in extant discourse.  Define a “free market”, with the intended Chicago-economists’ notion of “free of coercive or more generally intrusive power”, which I will hold them to since they want to invoke Arrow’s and Hahn’s and Debreu’s existence proofs of optimal allocations.  Build me the social algorithm by which every action that I take, in each small moment of any day, that will ever have effects on me or anybody else anywhere, has all those consequences fully known to us all, and fully and fairly negotiated, before the next action I take (turn on the tap, throw a piece of plastic in the trash, start the engine of the car, eat food produced in a way that degrades land, use a battery with materials mined in Mongolia.)  The absurdity of the concept is so overwhelming that I can’t help but respond to people who treat it as existing as if they mean to be dishonest.  Everything else that isn’t within that perfect-costless-contract model is “externalities”.  Those include, ignorance, power, non-responsibility for consequences, non-existence or unenforcibility of laws, and on and on and on.

That, to me, is where the problems occur, and a good-faith conversation engages with all the clarity we don’t have to deal with them.

I also think Adam Smith’s name is taken in vain, again in a sleight of hand that switches intents of words that sound the same.  One can read his arguments, made in the context of his time and the power structures most active then, as an argument that decentralized optimization can do many things that centralized planning can’t, or that deliberately oppressive power structures such as churches or church/state complexes actively degrade.  As I understand it, Smith made all sorts of conditions about morally grounded societies, some kind of mechanism for regulation against abuses, etc.  Not to mention it was mostly agrarian, pre-financial, and the power all but the fewest people could accumulate was extremely limited.  Much of Smith’s argument has a similar flavor, as a problem-solving analysis, to Walter Bagehot’s later writing in Lombard Street, about the better performance of decentralized banking with fractional-reserve lending.  In context, they make a lot of sense.  Quoted as scripture in contexts where the words would represent quite different choices, they can be given all sorts of meanings that a counterpart to Smith, suffering under today’s abuses, would not espouse.

I bother to write that because, with the question of how to handle the Coney Barrett appointment, there is a thing I don’t know how to A) think through, or B) express properly, and I don’t know which of those it is.

By the accounts of people who follow such things professionally, she is a capable jurist and a decent person.  I can believe that.  Interestingly, having had some of the old interviews of Scalia and Ginsburg played for me in the past week (great watching if you want to hear an advocacy of originalism and living-text made by people with skin and brain in the game), Scalia seems to stand for many not only sensible, but even decent positions.  

However, in the creep that destroys the world, what are the arguments about how it should play out and how it does?

I can see one argument for “originalism” as being that those who ratified the constitution in 1788 had suffered more, risked more, and thought more, than an average modern judge, and what they intended things to mean should not lightly be discarded by whoever comes along in each new generation.  I think that would be Scalia’s argument, to the effect that the power of judges to re-architect the country should be limited by the constitution, which it is the job of congress to amend (come back to that in a minute).

But then how does that work?  There was all kinds of stuff that didn’t exist in 1788.  So how does it work out that the right-aligned jurists consistently come down on the side of rulings that give those who have excessively concentrated power the collaboration of the law in concentrating that power — I take this to be Pat’s assertion, and I agree — no matter how destructive the means (here I mean citizens united, nullification of the pre-reporting requirement in the voting rights act, whatever that was, but probably lots more that I would know if I knew this area), while those who do not have concentrated power do not have the law as protection from oppressive use by those who do have it?  I don’t see how one gets from “originalism” to Citizens United.  

And to the extent that ACB is considered a studious adherent to Scalia’s originalism, but with less than Scalia’s originality in recognizing important times to deviate, she is expected to be more mechanical in driving the style of decisions people expected from him.  But the mismatch between the rhetoric, and the cumulative effects on the role of law in the society, seem drastic after these many decades.

Which brings us to the wider question (which a scientist would not pursue, knowing that he needs to focus on refining the accuracy of one point of data):  What the hell is taking place in the large-scale play of power in this country around this period?

Here are some things I have heard that seem valid, granting that I don’t have expertise to judge.

1.  For a party to control congress requires the coordination or coercion of some 260 or so people, which even the more corrupt and authoritarian societies can struggle to achieve.
2. An organ like SCOTUS has 9 people and votes by majority.  The control role may be more limited, but the numbers are certainly a lot smaller.
3. I heard yesterday from Durbin that the senate passed 22 pieces of law last year.  Certainly none of them addressing important ways in which our society has changed since 1788 that would reflect a new role for law.  I think the big one was the tax cut for the rich.  There were probably also some farm bill things, which from my reading of the farm columns involve some extraordinary debt-financed bailouts to try to buy republican votes for this election.  MMcC calls himself “the grim reaper”, to boast that he allows nothing to be done.
4. So it seems to me not unfair to say that the R position these days is to do no work themselves, and to block any work the Ds try to do, so that the congress does as close to nothing as possible.
5. This means that legislating has now been bounced to the courts, with SCOTUS as the court of last appeal.  Rather than write laws to address needs, the judges are asked to issue “interpretations” of ancient law for modern problems, and thus de facto define what the modern law is, bypassing congress.
6. No wonder it is such an ultra-high priority for Rs to stack every court they can, and perhaps also explicable that it is less of a priority for Ds, since they wouldn’t mind using the congress to do things, and so are not so exclusively focused on SCOTUS as a locus of control.   What “the voters” think is not something I find organic, as there is a highly sophisticated machinery to install what “the voters” think.  

So if one wanted a senate hearing on the ACB appointment that meant no disrespect to the person, but was about the substance of both her judicial method, and the context of power dynamics in which it will be applied, the above list seems to me to be where the causality lies.

Even if there were politicians who could speak plainly (rather than in the ultra-sterilized talk that is required these days), I can’t imagine a conversation’s being transacted in that frame.  Yet, short of that frame, I don’t see what else meaningfully addresses important sources of near-existential problems for the governance of the US.

I guess that wandered off the strict thread.

Eric


> On Sep 28, 2020, at 11:42 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.
>
> It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.
>
> I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.
>
>
> [⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.
>
> On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
>> In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense.
>>
>> The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.
>>
>> Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .
>>
>> Libertarianism is nonsense.
>>
>> ----   Pat
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>    This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.
>>
>>    Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
>>
>>      * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
>>      * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
>>      * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
>>      * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
>>      * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
>>      * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
>>      * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
>>      * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
>>      * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
>>      * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
>>      *
>>
>>        The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.
>>
>>      * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
>>
>>    Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
>>    how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)
>>
>>
>>    Eric C
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>    On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>        Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
>>        https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fevonomics.com%2fwhy-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie%2f&c=E,1,d2TnMVUh7KVPhp7lLOjPS60gXNNEZz6qiD8G3plDleoUYApuONZKAEuZlWeuhTTYFPFEb1-lRiWwHFw2gWpRDcvIRibx9tM6OuExB8uwHyCGDI8ucukQCaEx&typo=1
>>        "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
>>        --
>>        glen ⛧
>>
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Re: ideas are lies

Marcus G. Daniels
In reply to this post by David Eric Smith
It seems to me the judiciary's job is to lend legitimacy to the government, by holding it to some self-consistency requirements.  
The government (and thus the judiciary) won't be seen as legitimate if it is grossly out of step with the culture.   When there is a gap, a conservative judge may try to hold the line to founding principles but it can only go so far to rationalize the logic.    A liberal judge works with the same set of constraints but navigates them with different set of ideas about the world.    We can put these different agents on the tangled web and see where they go, but obviously they go different places and the left and the right try as hard as they can to find agents that have the motives they hope to see in the world.  The judges have their black robes and the doctors their white coats.   It's just about putting a good confident face on things.    In this spirit, I say pack the court.   Our dialog as Americans is no longer in good faith.

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 10:17 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ideas are lies

Yeah, agree with Pat, agree with Glen.

I will say it in a way that seems inevitably to be ruder, though I don’t wish to be rude.  I find libertarian thinking, in any forms I have encountered that have agency in the world, to be willfully disingenuous about the things that actually cause problems.

A lot of this would not occur in a world where people have to build something that operationalizes whatever they say in words.  Nod to Marcus’s comments about the virtue of cashing out thoughts in algorithms.

For years I wanted to write a paper called “There’s no such thing as a free market”, but I couldn’t find anything new to say that wasn’t already quite well said, and deliberately ignored, in extant discourse.  Define a “free market”, with the intended Chicago-economists’ notion of “free of coercive or more generally intrusive power”, which I will hold them to since they want to invoke Arrow’s and Hahn’s and Debreu’s existence proofs of optimal allocations.  Build me the social algorithm by which every action that I take, in each small moment of any day, that will ever have effects on me or anybody else anywhere, has all those consequences fully known to us all, and fully and fairly negotiated, before the next action I take (turn on the tap, throw a piece of plastic in the trash, start the engine of the car, eat food produced in a way that degrades land, use a battery with materials mined in Mongolia.)  The absurdity of the concept is so overwhelming that I can’t help but respond to people who treat it as existing as if they mean to be dishonest.  Everything else that isn’t within that perfect-costless-contract model is “externalities”.  Those include, ignorance, power, non-responsibility for consequences, non-existence or unenforcibility of laws, and on and on and on.

That, to me, is where the problems occur, and a good-faith conversation engages with all the clarity we don’t have to deal with them.

I also think Adam Smith’s name is taken in vain, again in a sleight of hand that switches intents of words that sound the same.  One can read his arguments, made in the context of his time and the power structures most active then, as an argument that decentralized optimization can do many things that centralized planning can’t, or that deliberately oppressive power structures such as churches or church/state complexes actively degrade.  As I understand it, Smith made all sorts of conditions about morally grounded societies, some kind of mechanism for regulation against abuses, etc.  Not to mention it was mostly agrarian, pre-financial, and the power all but the fewest people could accumulate was extremely limited.  Much of Smith’s argument has a similar flavor, as a problem-solving analysis, to Walter Bagehot’s later writing in Lombard Street, about the better performance of decentralized banking with fractional-reserve lending.  In context, they make a lot of sense.  Quoted as scripture in contexts where the words would represent quite different choices, they can be given all sorts of meanings that a counterpart to Smith, suffering under today’s abuses, would not espouse.

I bother to write that because, with the question of how to handle the Coney Barrett appointment, there is a thing I don’t know how to A) think through, or B) express properly, and I don’t know which of those it is.

By the accounts of people who follow such things professionally, she is a capable jurist and a decent person.  I can believe that.  Interestingly, having had some of the old interviews of Scalia and Ginsburg played for me in the past week (great watching if you want to hear an advocacy of originalism and living-text made by people with skin and brain in the game), Scalia seems to stand for many not only sensible, but even decent positions.  

However, in the creep that destroys the world, what are the arguments about how it should play out and how it does?

I can see one argument for “originalism” as being that those who ratified the constitution in 1788 had suffered more, risked more, and thought more, than an average modern judge, and what they intended things to mean should not lightly be discarded by whoever comes along in each new generation.  I think that would be Scalia’s argument, to the effect that the power of judges to re-architect the country should be limited by the constitution, which it is the job of congress to amend (come back to that in a minute).

But then how does that work?  There was all kinds of stuff that didn’t exist in 1788.  So how does it work out that the right-aligned jurists consistently come down on the side of rulings that give those who have excessively concentrated power the collaboration of the law in concentrating that power — I take this to be Pat’s assertion, and I agree — no matter how destructive the means (here I mean citizens united, nullification of the pre-reporting requirement in the voting rights act, whatever that was, but probably lots more that I would know if I knew this area), while those who do not have concentrated power do not have the law as protection from oppressive use by those who do have it?  I don’t see how one gets from “originalism” to Citizens United.  

And to the extent that ACB is considered a studious adherent to Scalia’s originalism, but with less than Scalia’s originality in recognizing important times to deviate, she is expected to be more mechanical in driving the style of decisions people expected from him.  But the mismatch between the rhetoric, and the cumulative effects on the role of law in the society, seem drastic after these many decades.

Which brings us to the wider question (which a scientist would not pursue, knowing that he needs to focus on refining the accuracy of one point of data):  What the hell is taking place in the large-scale play of power in this country around this period?

Here are some things I have heard that seem valid, granting that I don’t have expertise to judge.

1.  For a party to control congress requires the coordination or coercion of some 260 or so people, which even the more corrupt and authoritarian societies can struggle to achieve.
2. An organ like SCOTUS has 9 people and votes by majority.  The control role may be more limited, but the numbers are certainly a lot smaller.
3. I heard yesterday from Durbin that the senate passed 22 pieces of law last year.  Certainly none of them addressing important ways in which our society has changed since 1788 that would reflect a new role for law.  I think the big one was the tax cut for the rich.  There were probably also some farm bill things, which from my reading of the farm columns involve some extraordinary debt-financed bailouts to try to buy republican votes for this election.  MMcC calls himself “the grim reaper”, to boast that he allows nothing to be done.
4. So it seems to me not unfair to say that the R position these days is to do no work themselves, and to block any work the Ds try to do, so that the congress does as close to nothing as possible.
5. This means that legislating has now been bounced to the courts, with SCOTUS as the court of last appeal.  Rather than write laws to address needs, the judges are asked to issue “interpretations” of ancient law for modern problems, and thus de facto define what the modern law is, bypassing congress.
6. No wonder it is such an ultra-high priority for Rs to stack every court they can, and perhaps also explicable that it is less of a priority for Ds, since they wouldn’t mind using the congress to do things, and so are not so exclusively focused on SCOTUS as a locus of control.   What “the voters” think is not something I find organic, as there is a highly sophisticated machinery to install what “the voters” think.  

So if one wanted a senate hearing on the ACB appointment that meant no disrespect to the person, but was about the substance of both her judicial method, and the context of power dynamics in which it will be applied, the above list seems to me to be where the causality lies.

Even if there were politicians who could speak plainly (rather than in the ultra-sterilized talk that is required these days), I can’t imagine a conversation’s being transacted in that frame.  Yet, short of that frame, I don’t see what else meaningfully addresses important sources of near-existential problems for the governance of the US.

I guess that wandered off the strict thread.

Eric


> On Sep 28, 2020, at 11:42 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.
>
> It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.
>
> I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.
>
>
> [⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.
>
> On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
>> In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense.
>>
>> The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.
>>
>> Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .
>>
>> Libertarianism is nonsense.
>>
>> ----   Pat
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>    This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.
>>
>>    Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
>>
>>      * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
>>      * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
>>      * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
>>      * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
>>      * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
>>      * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
>>      * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
>>      * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
>>      * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
>>      * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
>>      *
>>
>>        The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.
>>
>>      * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
>>
>>    Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
>>    how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)
>>
>>
>>    Eric C
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>    On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>        Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
>>        https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fevonomics.com%2fwhy-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie%2f&c=E,1,d2TnMVUh7KVPhp7lLOjPS60gXNNEZz6qiD8G3plDleoUYApuONZKAEuZlWeuhTTYFPFEb1-lRiWwHFw2gWpRDcvIRibx9tM6OuExB8uwHyCGDI8ucukQCaEx&typo=1
>>        "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
>>        --
>>        glen ⛧
>>
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Libertarianism Is Not Fundamentally Nonsense . . . but It Usually Is as Applied in Conventional Political Discourse

Patrick Reilly
In reply to this post by thompnickson2
I did qualify my comments with the opener that "[i]n my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic . . . [are] nonsense . . ."

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 11:12 AM <[hidden email]> wrote:
EricS,

Not stray at all.  I am glad we are having this discussion.

As to the supreme ct pick, I thought that this interview

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yjTEdZ81lI&feature=emb_rel_end

might be a little consoling,  Focus on the last part where there is back and forth between her and the moderator.  She LISTENS.  Well, at least she nods and gives eyecontact.  As somebody who has a hard time doing either of those things, I admire it. 

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/



-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 11:17 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ideas are lies

Yeah, agree with Pat, agree with Glen.

I will say it in a way that seems inevitably to be ruder, though I don’t wish to be rude.  I find libertarian thinking, in any forms I have encountered that have agency in the world, to be willfully disingenuous about the things that actually cause problems.

A lot of this would not occur in a world where people have to build something that operationalizes whatever they say in words.  Nod to Marcus’s comments about the virtue of cashing out thoughts in algorithms.

For years I wanted to write a paper called “There’s no such thing as a free market”, but I couldn’t find anything new to say that wasn’t already quite well said, and deliberately ignored, in extant discourse.  Define a “free market”, with the intended Chicago-economists’ notion of “free of coercive or more generally intrusive power”, which I will hold them to since they want to invoke Arrow’s and Hahn’s and Debreu’s existence proofs of optimal allocations.  Build me the social algorithm by which every action that I take, in each small moment of any day, that will ever have effects on me or anybody else anywhere, has all those consequences fully known to us all, and fully and fairly negotiated, before the next action I take (turn on the tap, throw a piece of plastic in the trash, start the engine of the car, eat food produced in a way that degrades land, use a battery with materials mined in Mongolia.)  The absurdity of the concept is so overwhelming that I can’t help but respond to people who treat it as existing as if they mean to be dishonest.  Everything else that isn’t within that perfect-costless-contract model is “externalities”.  Those include, ignorance, power, non-responsibility for consequences, non-existence or unenforcibility of laws, and on and on and on.

That, to me, is where the problems occur, and a good-faith conversation engages with all the clarity we don’t have to deal with them.

I also think Adam Smith’s name is taken in vain, again in a sleight of hand that switches intents of words that sound the same.  One can read his arguments, made in the context of his time and the power structures most active then, as an argument that decentralized optimization can do many things that centralized planning can’t, or that deliberately oppressive power structures such as churches or church/state complexes actively degrade.  As I understand it, Smith made all sorts of conditions about morally grounded societies, some kind of mechanism for regulation against abuses, etc.  Not to mention it was mostly agrarian, pre-financial, and the power all but the fewest people could accumulate was extremely limited.  Much of Smith’s argument has a similar flavor, as a problem-solving analysis, to Walter Bagehot’s later writing in Lombard Street, about the better performance of decentralized banking with fractional-reserve lending.  In context, they make a lot of sense.  Quoted as scripture in contexts where the words would represent quite different choices, they can be given all sorts of meanings that a counterpart to Smith, suffering under today’s abuses, would not espouse.

I bother to write that because, with the question of how to handle the Coney Barrett appointment, there is a thing I don’t know how to A) think through, or B) express properly, and I don’t know which of those it is.

By the accounts of people who follow such things professionally, she is a capable jurist and a decent person.  I can believe that.  Interestingly, having had some of the old interviews of Scalia and Ginsburg played for me in the past week (great watching if you want to hear an advocacy of originalism and living-text made by people with skin and brain in the game), Scalia seems to stand for many not only sensible, but even decent positions. 

However, in the creep that destroys the world, what are the arguments about how it should play out and how it does?

I can see one argument for “originalism” as being that those who ratified the constitution in 1788 had suffered more, risked more, and thought more, than an average modern judge, and what they intended things to mean should not lightly be discarded by whoever comes along in each new generation.  I think that would be Scalia’s argument, to the effect that the power of judges to re-architect the country should be limited by the constitution, which it is the job of congress to amend (come back to that in a minute).

But then how does that work?  There was all kinds of stuff that didn’t exist in 1788.  So how does it work out that the right-aligned jurists consistently come down on the side of rulings that give those who have excessively concentrated power the collaboration of the law in concentrating that power — I take this to be Pat’s assertion, and I agree — no matter how destructive the means (here I mean citizens united, nullification of the pre-reporting requirement in the voting rights act, whatever that was, but probably lots more that I would know if I knew this area), while those who do not have concentrated power do not have the law as protection from oppressive use by those who do have it?  I don’t see how one gets from “originalism” to Citizens United. 

And to the extent that ACB is considered a studious adherent to Scalia’s originalism, but with less than Scalia’s originality in recognizing important times to deviate, she is expected to be more mechanical in driving the style of decisions people expected from him.  But the mismatch between the rhetoric, and the cumulative effects on the role of law in the society, seem drastic after these many decades.

Which brings us to the wider question (which a scientist would not pursue, knowing that he needs to focus on refining the accuracy of one point of data):  What the hell is taking place in the large-scale play of power in this country around this period?

Here are some things I have heard that seem valid, granting that I don’t have expertise to judge.

1.  For a party to control congress requires the coordination or coercion of some 260 or so people, which even the more corrupt and authoritarian societies can struggle to achieve.
2. An organ like SCOTUS has 9 people and votes by majority.  The control role may be more limited, but the numbers are certainly a lot smaller.
3. I heard yesterday from Durbin that the senate passed 22 pieces of law last year.  Certainly none of them addressing important ways in which our society has changed since 1788 that would reflect a new role for law.  I think the big one was the tax cut for the rich.  There were probably also some farm bill things, which from my reading of the farm columns involve some extraordinary debt-financed bailouts to try to buy republican votes for this election.  MMcC calls himself “the grim reaper”, to boast that he allows nothing to be done.
4. So it seems to me not unfair to say that the R position these days is to do no work themselves, and to block any work the Ds try to do, so that the congress does as close to nothing as possible.
5. This means that legislating has now been bounced to the courts, with SCOTUS as the court of last appeal.  Rather than write laws to address needs, the judges are asked to issue “interpretations” of ancient law for modern problems, and thus de facto define what the modern law is, bypassing congress.
6. No wonder it is such an ultra-high priority for Rs to stack every court they can, and perhaps also explicable that it is less of a priority for Ds, since they wouldn’t mind using the congress to do things, and so are not so exclusively focused on SCOTUS as a locus of control.   What “the voters” think is not something I find organic, as there is a highly sophisticated machinery to install what “the voters” think. 

So if one wanted a senate hearing on the ACB appointment that meant no disrespect to the person, but was about the substance of both her judicial method, and the context of power dynamics in which it will be applied, the above list seems to me to be where the causality lies.

Even if there were politicians who could speak plainly (rather than in the ultra-sterilized talk that is required these days), I can’t imagine a conversation’s being transacted in that frame.  Yet, short of that frame, I don’t see what else meaningfully addresses important sources of near-existential problems for the governance of the US.

I guess that wandered off the strict thread.

Eric


> On Sep 28, 2020, at 11:42 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.
>
> It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.
>
> I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.
>
>
> [⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.
>
> On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
>> In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense.
>>
>> The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.
>>
>> Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .
>>
>> Libertarianism is nonsense.
>>
>> ----   Pat
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>    This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.
>>
>>    Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
>>
>>      * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
>>      * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
>>      * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
>>      * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
>>      * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
>>      * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
>>      * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
>>      * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
>>      * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
>>      * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
>>      *
>>
>>        The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.
>>
>>      * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
>>
>>    Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
>>    how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)
>>
>>
>>    Eric C
>>    <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>>
>>    On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>
>>        Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
>>        https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fevonomics.com%2fwhy-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie%2f&c=E,1,d2TnMVUh7KVPhp7lLOjPS60gXNNEZz6qiD8G3plDleoUYApuONZKAEuZlWeuhTTYFPFEb1-lRiWwHFw2gWpRDcvIRibx9tM6OuExB8uwHyCGDI8ucukQCaEx&typo=1
>>        "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
>>        --
>>        glen ⛧
>>
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Re: ideas are lies

gepr
In reply to this post by thompnickson2
Ha! "Ratified"!!! That's the word I was looking for. Stupid brain.

On 9/28/20 11:12 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yjTEdZ81lI&feature=emb_rel_end

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: ideas are lies

jon zingale
In reply to this post by thompnickson2
Nick,

Thanks for this interview. If nothing else, she sounds like a competent
person who appears to understand the job. In 2020, I am not sure I could
expect more.



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Re: ideas are lies

Steve Smith
In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

Eric -

Great "wander" from the main thread...   Your "wander" through the rhetoric of Adam Smith and the abuses of the *ideal* of a free market leads me to (re) offer up the tome written by Tomas Bjorkman:  "The World we Create: From God To Market".   

As a young man I was seduced by the illusions implicit in the "card carrying Libertarian" mode.   I was perhaps myself, seduced by the minor (or at least obscured) edge the Libertarian rhetoric seems to give to those with some kind of advantage, the opportunity (inevitability?) to parlay that into dominance.   Coming out of childhood where my parents, older sibling, teachers, older classmates, bosses, authorities, etc.  all had a range of advantage up to complete dominance over my life, I was focused a bit more on wiggling out  from under those thumbs than I was perhaps aware that *I* was going to become someone else's thumb, and in fact very likely already was, merely by being a member of varied overlapping communities of privilege.   Some of the conversations here, including what I interpret from Glen (at least) and others having gone through some of those illusions and come out the other side, have helped me understand how "yet more" I was seduced by those idea(l)s and continue to benefit from them unconsciously.   For example, as I consider myself part of the "dominated" 99% by the "dominating" 1% (wealth) in our culture, I have to recognize that I am at least part of the dominating 10% (wealth, military, political) in the world over the 90% (each of us can pick our own ratio).

I also appreciate your analysis of "originalism", as I have lived under the specter of the differences between letter and spirit or letter and intent of various laws/rules/etc.    I eventually (again, some help from some of the discussions here) had to acknowledge (more and more) that simply discarding the letter *for* the intent/spirit has risks and challenges in the same way as blindly (or belligerently?) following the letter can.    I regretfully agree that the upcoming Senate hearings to consider (rubber-stamp?) confirmation of ACB, *might* (but won't) offer a forum to discuss publicly the larger issues of how the three branches of government were considered to provide checks and balances to runaway accumulations of power, at least in our political and governance systems.

My own personal "answer" to the lack of "an algorithm to track externalities" is to scope my transactions more and more local, and re/up-cycle    As of a month ago, I only eat eggs layed in my own back yard.   When I have my farming shit together, I mostly only eat vegetables (including beans and dried corn and squash) grown on the land near my home, with water pumped from the aquifer underneath my home by (if I had my solar/wind shit together better) energy obtained from the sun/wind flux in my immediate environs.   I can virtue-signal in concentric rings out from there to include the wood I burn for supplemental heat to come from the trees growing nearby,  and the car I drive (up to 40mi RT/day) being electrified by the same solar flux as the water pumped).   

The point isn't to (just) virtue signal but to experiment with how much I *really* need to ask people all over the world to defer to my financial/military/political dominance (laundered through my government and the huge corporations it enables) and first-world privilege squanderage.   I still regularly eat avocados shipped (with fossil fuels) 1000 miles or more, often from Mexico and drink coffee shipped similar differences and cultivated/picked by people making a tiny fraction of what I live on while very wealthy middle-persons (or corporations) get wealthier from their labor (and likely what was formerly their ancestor's landscape) and my excess spending power.   The computer (12 year old macbook pro) I type on definitely started life as a pure externality as did the stupid-big battery in my (already used-up by the former owner's perspective) electric car (did that lithium come from Mongolia, or just the Neodymium in the motor-generators?),  and the cement in the mortar I'm using to face the stem-wall (and the concrete block OF the stem wall) of my sunroom is another externality (in material AND energy) I have no trouble (usually) treating as "no big deal".  And I still ask my UPS/FedEx/USPS driver to haul her 10,000 GVW delivery vehicle down my lane to my house to idle while she unloads whatever bit of electronic/digital junk I thought  I needed while browsing Amazon/aliExpress/NewEgg/??? last week, albeit only once a week (using Amazon Day, etc.).  I don't know *where* the bitumen in the asphalt of the highway those trucks and I speed down (all electric!!!) every day or so comes from, or how it gets there.   There are no end of the externalities to ignore.

I'm convinced that if the global industrial-transportation system doesn't collapse out from under us, only the most rabid of freegans can even begin to pretend that their externalities are strictly local.   My personal attempts to contract in this way may be entirely ideosyncratic and thin unto empty, but every time I try to recognize who and what I'm harming, where, I get a brief glimpse of a local optimization I *can* do, and listen for the screams of those who have to absorb them.

This might provide a fair segue back into the questions of the kinds of optimization that free markets might offer:   Economies of Scale, Synergy amongst qualitatively different goods/services, and the Annealing that the push-and-shove of competitive markets can provide.   Are these real things, or just tricks and illusions the(we?) power/wealth mongers caste to keep the rest of us(them?) feeding their greed?   The thought of an algorithm (facilitated how?) to help keep track of if/when/where/how these things come to play and where they are just an obfuscation to exploiting Gaia and her (human and other animal) children.

- Steve

On 9/28/20 11:17 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
Yeah, agree with Pat, agree with Glen.

I will say it in a way that seems inevitably to be ruder, though I don’t wish to be rude.  I find libertarian thinking, in any forms I have encountered that have agency in the world, to be willfully disingenuous about the things that actually cause problems.

A lot of this would not occur in a world where people have to build something that operationalizes whatever they say in words.  Nod to Marcus’s comments about the virtue of cashing out thoughts in algorithms.

For years I wanted to write a paper called “There’s no such thing as a free market”, but I couldn’t find anything new to say that wasn’t already quite well said, and deliberately ignored, in extant discourse.  Define a “free market”, with the intended Chicago-economists’ notion of “free of coercive or more generally intrusive power”, which I will hold them to since they want to invoke Arrow’s and Hahn’s and Debreu’s existence proofs of optimal allocations.  Build me the social algorithm by which every action that I take, in each small moment of any day, that will ever have effects on me or anybody else anywhere, has all those consequences fully known to us all, and fully and fairly negotiated, before the next action I take (turn on the tap, throw a piece of plastic in the trash, start the engine of the car, eat food produced in a way that degrades land, use a battery with materials mined in Mongolia.)  The absurdity of the concept is so overwhelming that I can’t help but respond to people who treat it as existing as if they mean to be dishonest.  Everything else that isn’t within that perfect-costless-contract model is “externalities”.  Those include, ignorance, power, non-responsibility for consequences, non-existence or unenforcibility of laws, and on and on and on.

That, to me, is where the problems occur, and a good-faith conversation engages with all the clarity we don’t have to deal with them.

I also think Adam Smith’s name is taken in vain, again in a sleight of hand that switches intents of words that sound the same.  One can read his arguments, made in the context of his time and the power structures most active then, as an argument that decentralized optimization can do many things that centralized planning can’t, or that deliberately oppressive power structures such as churches or church/state complexes actively degrade.  As I understand it, Smith made all sorts of conditions about morally grounded societies, some kind of mechanism for regulation against abuses, etc.  Not to mention it was mostly agrarian, pre-financial, and the power all but the fewest people could accumulate was extremely limited.  Much of Smith’s argument has a similar flavor, as a problem-solving analysis, to Walter Bagehot’s later writing in Lombard Street, about the better performance of decentralized banking with fractional-reserve lending.  In context, they make a lot of sense.  Quoted as scripture in contexts where the words would represent quite different choices, they can be given all sorts of meanings that a counterpart to Smith, suffering under today’s abuses, would not espouse.

I bother to write that because, with the question of how to handle the Coney Barrett appointment, there is a thing I don’t know how to A) think through, or B) express properly, and I don’t know which of those it is.

By the accounts of people who follow such things professionally, she is a capable jurist and a decent person.  I can believe that.  Interestingly, having had some of the old interviews of Scalia and Ginsburg played for me in the past week (great watching if you want to hear an advocacy of originalism and living-text made by people with skin and brain in the game), Scalia seems to stand for many not only sensible, but even decent positions.  

However, in the creep that destroys the world, what are the arguments about how it should play out and how it does?

I can see one argument for “originalism” as being that those who ratified the constitution in 1788 had suffered more, risked more, and thought more, than an average modern judge, and what they intended things to mean should not lightly be discarded by whoever comes along in each new generation.  I think that would be Scalia’s argument, to the effect that the power of judges to re-architect the country should be limited by the constitution, which it is the job of congress to amend (come back to that in a minute).

But then how does that work?  There was all kinds of stuff that didn’t exist in 1788.  So how does it work out that the right-aligned jurists consistently come down on the side of rulings that give those who have excessively concentrated power the collaboration of the law in concentrating that power — I take this to be Pat’s assertion, and I agree — no matter how destructive the means (here I mean citizens united, nullification of the pre-reporting requirement in the voting rights act, whatever that was, but probably lots more that I would know if I knew this area), while those who do not have concentrated power do not have the law as protection from oppressive use by those who do have it?  I don’t see how one gets from “originalism” to Citizens United.  

And to the extent that ACB is considered a studious adherent to Scalia’s originalism, but with less than Scalia’s originality in recognizing important times to deviate, she is expected to be more mechanical in driving the style of decisions people expected from him.  But the mismatch between the rhetoric, and the cumulative effects on the role of law in the society, seem drastic after these many decades.

Which brings us to the wider question (which a scientist would not pursue, knowing that he needs to focus on refining the accuracy of one point of data):  What the hell is taking place in the large-scale play of power in this country around this period? 

Here are some things I have heard that seem valid, granting that I don’t have expertise to judge.

1.  For a party to control congress requires the coordination or coercion of some 260 or so people, which even the more corrupt and authoritarian societies can struggle to achieve.
2. An organ like SCOTUS has 9 people and votes by majority.  The control role may be more limited, but the numbers are certainly a lot smaller.
3. I heard yesterday from Durbin that the senate passed 22 pieces of law last year.  Certainly none of them addressing important ways in which our society has changed since 1788 that would reflect a new role for law.  I think the big one was the tax cut for the rich.  There were probably also some farm bill things, which from my reading of the farm columns involve some extraordinary debt-financed bailouts to try to buy republican votes for this election.  MMcC calls himself “the grim reaper”, to boast that he allows nothing to be done.
4. So it seems to me not unfair to say that the R position these days is to do no work themselves, and to block any work the Ds try to do, so that the congress does as close to nothing as possible.
5. This means that legislating has now been bounced to the courts, with SCOTUS as the court of last appeal.  Rather than write laws to address needs, the judges are asked to issue “interpretations” of ancient law for modern problems, and thus de facto define what the modern law is, bypassing congress.
6. No wonder it is such an ultra-high priority for Rs to stack every court they can, and perhaps also explicable that it is less of a priority for Ds, since they wouldn’t mind using the congress to do things, and so are not so exclusively focused on SCOTUS as a locus of control.   What “the voters” think is not something I find organic, as there is a highly sophisticated machinery to install what “the voters” think.  

So if one wanted a senate hearing on the ACB appointment that meant no disrespect to the person, but was about the substance of both her judicial method, and the context of power dynamics in which it will be applied, the above list seems to me to be where the causality lies.

Even if there were politicians who could speak plainly (rather than in the ultra-sterilized talk that is required these days), I can’t imagine a conversation’s being transacted in that frame.  Yet, short of that frame, I don’t see what else meaningfully addresses important sources of near-existential problems for the governance of the US.

I guess that wandered off the strict thread.

Eric


On Sep 28, 2020, at 11:42 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ [hidden email] wrote:

Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.

It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.

I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.


[⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.

On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense. 

The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.

Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .

Libertarianism is nonsense.

----   Pat

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email] [hidden email]> wrote:

   This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.

   Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:

     * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
     * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
     * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
     * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
     * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
     * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
     * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
     * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
     * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
     * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
     *

       The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.

     * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power. 

   Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
   how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)


   Eric C
   [hidden email]


   On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email] [hidden email]> wrote:

       Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
       https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fevonomics.com%2fwhy-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie%2f&c=E,1,d2TnMVUh7KVPhp7lLOjPS60gXNNEZz6qiD8G3plDleoUYApuONZKAEuZlWeuhTTYFPFEb1-lRiWwHFw2gWpRDcvIRibx9tM6OuExB8uwHyCGDI8ucukQCaEx&typo=1
       "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
       -- 
       glen ⛧

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Re: ideas are lies

Frank Wimberly-2

On Mon, Sep 28, 2020, 3:35 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Eric -

Great "wander" from the main thread...   Your "wander" through the rhetoric of Adam Smith and the abuses of the *ideal* of a free market leads me to (re) offer up the tome written by Tomas Bjorkman:  "The World we Create: From God To Market".   

As a young man I was seduced by the illusions implicit in the "card carrying Libertarian" mode.   I was perhaps myself, seduced by the minor (or at least obscured) edge the Libertarian rhetoric seems to give to those with some kind of advantage, the opportunity (inevitability?) to parlay that into dominance.   Coming out of childhood where my parents, older sibling, teachers, older classmates, bosses, authorities, etc.  all had a range of advantage up to complete dominance over my life, I was focused a bit more on wiggling out  from under those thumbs than I was perhaps aware that *I* was going to become someone else's thumb, and in fact very likely already was, merely by being a member of varied overlapping communities of privilege.   Some of the conversations here, including what I interpret from Glen (at least) and others having gone through some of those illusions and come out the other side, have helped me understand how "yet more" I was seduced by those idea(l)s and continue to benefit from them unconsciously.   For example, as I consider myself part of the "dominated" 99% by the "dominating" 1% (wealth) in our culture, I have to recognize that I am at least part of the dominating 10% (wealth, military, political) in the world over the 90% (each of us can pick our own ratio).

I also appreciate your analysis of "originalism", as I have lived under the specter of the differences between letter and spirit or letter and intent of various laws/rules/etc.    I eventually (again, some help from some of the discussions here) had to acknowledge (more and more) that simply discarding the letter *for* the intent/spirit has risks and challenges in the same way as blindly (or belligerently?) following the letter can.    I regretfully agree that the upcoming Senate hearings to consider (rubber-stamp?) confirmation of ACB, *might* (but won't) offer a forum to discuss publicly the larger issues of how the three branches of government were considered to provide checks and balances to runaway accumulations of power, at least in our political and governance systems.

My own personal "answer" to the lack of "an algorithm to track externalities" is to scope my transactions more and more local, and re/up-cycle    As of a month ago, I only eat eggs layed in my own back yard.   When I have my farming shit together, I mostly only eat vegetables (including beans and dried corn and squash) grown on the land near my home, with water pumped from the aquifer underneath my home by (if I had my solar/wind shit together better) energy obtained from the sun/wind flux in my immediate environs.   I can virtue-signal in concentric rings out from there to include the wood I burn for supplemental heat to come from the trees growing nearby,  and the car I drive (up to 40mi RT/day) being electrified by the same solar flux as the water pumped).   

The point isn't to (just) virtue signal but to experiment with how much I *really* need to ask people all over the world to defer to my financial/military/political dominance (laundered through my government and the huge corporations it enables) and first-world privilege squanderage.   I still regularly eat avocados shipped (with fossil fuels) 1000 miles or more, often from Mexico and drink coffee shipped similar differences and cultivated/picked by people making a tiny fraction of what I live on while very wealthy middle-persons (or corporations) get wealthier from their labor (and likely what was formerly their ancestor's landscape) and my excess spending power.   The computer (12 year old macbook pro) I type on definitely started life as a pure externality as did the stupid-big battery in my (already used-up by the former owner's perspective) electric car (did that lithium come from Mongolia, or just the Neodymium in the motor-generators?),  and the cement in the mortar I'm using to face the stem-wall (and the concrete block OF the stem wall) of my sunroom is another externality (in material AND energy) I have no trouble (usually) treating as "no big deal".  And I still ask my UPS/FedEx/USPS driver to haul her 10,000 GVW delivery vehicle down my lane to my house to idle while she unloads whatever bit of electronic/digital junk I thought  I needed while browsing Amazon/aliExpress/NewEgg/??? last week, albeit only once a week (using Amazon Day, etc.).  I don't know *where* the bitumen in the asphalt of the highway those trucks and I speed down (all electric!!!) every day or so comes from, or how it gets there.   There are no end of the externalities to ignore.

I'm convinced that if the global industrial-transportation system doesn't collapse out from under us, only the most rabid of freegans can even begin to pretend that their externalities are strictly local.   My personal attempts to contract in this way may be entirely ideosyncratic and thin unto empty, but every time I try to recognize who and what I'm harming, where, I get a brief glimpse of a local optimization I *can* do, and listen for the screams of those who have to absorb them.

This might provide a fair segue back into the questions of the kinds of optimization that free markets might offer:   Economies of Scale, Synergy amongst qualitatively different goods/services, and the Annealing that the push-and-shove of competitive markets can provide.   Are these real things, or just tricks and illusions the(we?) power/wealth mongers caste to keep the rest of us(them?) feeding their greed?   The thought of an algorithm (facilitated how?) to help keep track of if/when/where/how these things come to play and where they are just an obfuscation to exploiting Gaia and her (human and other animal) children.

- Steve

On 9/28/20 11:17 AM, David Eric Smith wrote:
Yeah, agree with Pat, agree with Glen.

I will say it in a way that seems inevitably to be ruder, though I don’t wish to be rude.  I find libertarian thinking, in any forms I have encountered that have agency in the world, to be willfully disingenuous about the things that actually cause problems.

A lot of this would not occur in a world where people have to build something that operationalizes whatever they say in words.  Nod to Marcus’s comments about the virtue of cashing out thoughts in algorithms.

For years I wanted to write a paper called “There’s no such thing as a free market”, but I couldn’t find anything new to say that wasn’t already quite well said, and deliberately ignored, in extant discourse.  Define a “free market”, with the intended Chicago-economists’ notion of “free of coercive or more generally intrusive power”, which I will hold them to since they want to invoke Arrow’s and Hahn’s and Debreu’s existence proofs of optimal allocations.  Build me the social algorithm by which every action that I take, in each small moment of any day, that will ever have effects on me or anybody else anywhere, has all those consequences fully known to us all, and fully and fairly negotiated, before the next action I take (turn on the tap, throw a piece of plastic in the trash, start the engine of the car, eat food produced in a way that degrades land, use a battery with materials mined in Mongolia.)  The absurdity of the concept is so overwhelming that I can’t help but respond to people who treat it as existing as if they mean to be dishonest.  Everything else that isn’t within that perfect-costless-contract model is “externalities”.  Those include, ignorance, power, non-responsibility for consequences, non-existence or unenforcibility of laws, and on and on and on.

That, to me, is where the problems occur, and a good-faith conversation engages with all the clarity we don’t have to deal with them.

I also think Adam Smith’s name is taken in vain, again in a sleight of hand that switches intents of words that sound the same.  One can read his arguments, made in the context of his time and the power structures most active then, as an argument that decentralized optimization can do many things that centralized planning can’t, or that deliberately oppressive power structures such as churches or church/state complexes actively degrade.  As I understand it, Smith made all sorts of conditions about morally grounded societies, some kind of mechanism for regulation against abuses, etc.  Not to mention it was mostly agrarian, pre-financial, and the power all but the fewest people could accumulate was extremely limited.  Much of Smith’s argument has a similar flavor, as a problem-solving analysis, to Walter Bagehot’s later writing in Lombard Street, about the better performance of decentralized banking with fractional-reserve lending.  In context, they make a lot of sense.  Quoted as scripture in contexts where the words would represent quite different choices, they can be given all sorts of meanings that a counterpart to Smith, suffering under today’s abuses, would not espouse.

I bother to write that because, with the question of how to handle the Coney Barrett appointment, there is a thing I don’t know how to A) think through, or B) express properly, and I don’t know which of those it is.

By the accounts of people who follow such things professionally, she is a capable jurist and a decent person.  I can believe that.  Interestingly, having had some of the old interviews of Scalia and Ginsburg played for me in the past week (great watching if you want to hear an advocacy of originalism and living-text made by people with skin and brain in the game), Scalia seems to stand for many not only sensible, but even decent positions.  

However, in the creep that destroys the world, what are the arguments about how it should play out and how it does?

I can see one argument for “originalism” as being that those who ratified the constitution in 1788 had suffered more, risked more, and thought more, than an average modern judge, and what they intended things to mean should not lightly be discarded by whoever comes along in each new generation.  I think that would be Scalia’s argument, to the effect that the power of judges to re-architect the country should be limited by the constitution, which it is the job of congress to amend (come back to that in a minute).

But then how does that work?  There was all kinds of stuff that didn’t exist in 1788.  So how does it work out that the right-aligned jurists consistently come down on the side of rulings that give those who have excessively concentrated power the collaboration of the law in concentrating that power — I take this to be Pat’s assertion, and I agree — no matter how destructive the means (here I mean citizens united, nullification of the pre-reporting requirement in the voting rights act, whatever that was, but probably lots more that I would know if I knew this area), while those who do not have concentrated power do not have the law as protection from oppressive use by those who do have it?  I don’t see how one gets from “originalism” to Citizens United.  

And to the extent that ACB is considered a studious adherent to Scalia’s originalism, but with less than Scalia’s originality in recognizing important times to deviate, she is expected to be more mechanical in driving the style of decisions people expected from him.  But the mismatch between the rhetoric, and the cumulative effects on the role of law in the society, seem drastic after these many decades.

Which brings us to the wider question (which a scientist would not pursue, knowing that he needs to focus on refining the accuracy of one point of data):  What the hell is taking place in the large-scale play of power in this country around this period? 

Here are some things I have heard that seem valid, granting that I don’t have expertise to judge.

1.  For a party to control congress requires the coordination or coercion of some 260 or so people, which even the more corrupt and authoritarian societies can struggle to achieve.
2. An organ like SCOTUS has 9 people and votes by majority.  The control role may be more limited, but the numbers are certainly a lot smaller.
3. I heard yesterday from Durbin that the senate passed 22 pieces of law last year.  Certainly none of them addressing important ways in which our society has changed since 1788 that would reflect a new role for law.  I think the big one was the tax cut for the rich.  There were probably also some farm bill things, which from my reading of the farm columns involve some extraordinary debt-financed bailouts to try to buy republican votes for this election.  MMcC calls himself “the grim reaper”, to boast that he allows nothing to be done.
4. So it seems to me not unfair to say that the R position these days is to do no work themselves, and to block any work the Ds try to do, so that the congress does as close to nothing as possible.
5. This means that legislating has now been bounced to the courts, with SCOTUS as the court of last appeal.  Rather than write laws to address needs, the judges are asked to issue “interpretations” of ancient law for modern problems, and thus de facto define what the modern law is, bypassing congress.
6. No wonder it is such an ultra-high priority for Rs to stack every court they can, and perhaps also explicable that it is less of a priority for Ds, since they wouldn’t mind using the congress to do things, and so are not so exclusively focused on SCOTUS as a locus of control.   What “the voters” think is not something I find organic, as there is a highly sophisticated machinery to install what “the voters” think.  

So if one wanted a senate hearing on the ACB appointment that meant no disrespect to the person, but was about the substance of both her judicial method, and the context of power dynamics in which it will be applied, the above list seems to me to be where the causality lies.

Even if there were politicians who could speak plainly (rather than in the ultra-sterilized talk that is required these days), I can’t imagine a conversation’s being transacted in that frame.  Yet, short of that frame, I don’t see what else meaningfully addresses important sources of near-existential problems for the governance of the US.

I guess that wandered off the strict thread.

Eric


On Sep 28, 2020, at 11:42 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ [hidden email] wrote:

Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.

It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.

I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.


[⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.

On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense. 

The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.

Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .

Libertarianism is nonsense.

----   Pat

On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email] [hidden email]> wrote:

   This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.

   Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:

     * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
     * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
     * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
     * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
     * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
     * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
     * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
     * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
     * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
     * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
     *

       The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.

     * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power. 

   Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
   how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)


   Eric C
   [hidden email]


   On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email] [hidden email]> wrote:

       Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
       https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fevonomics.com%2fwhy-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie%2f&c=E,1,d2TnMVUh7KVPhp7lLOjPS60gXNNEZz6qiD8G3plDleoUYApuONZKAEuZlWeuhTTYFPFEb1-lRiWwHFw2gWpRDcvIRibx9tM6OuExB8uwHyCGDI8ucukQCaEx&typo=1
       "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
       -- 
       glen ⛧

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Re: ideas are lies

Eric Charles-2
In reply to this post by gepr
To Glen's point.... it's hard to evaluate the overall argument of a piece when almost every factual claim seems factually wrong, and a decent chunk of those claims are in my area of ostensible expertise... The entire "evolutionary psychology" part is just bunk...  I've also had enough training in economics, anthropology, philosophy, and other areas to suspect that much of the coverage of that is bunk..... so even if I could wade through enough to judge the conclusion, there is definitely no world in which I agree with the argument. When I say I'm suspicious of most sentences, that includes the transition sentences that create "the narrative." He says "X. And X therefore Y. So Y, and if Y we should definitely Z", and I not only think X is wrong, but also that even if X were true it would not necessitate Y; and even if Y was necessitated, that wouldn't mean we should Z. 

I think the comment about Libertarians assuming decoupling is much more interesting than all points in the original article put together. Well worth breaking out into a different thread, level interesting. That would be a way, way better discussion.... in contrast with trying to figure out what it would mean for evolution (?) to favor (?) a massive-fiction-masquerading-as-a-Machiavellian-lie that either originated in the 1770s or in the late 1940s (unclear which). 

You said: Libertarians aren't "even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle."

And, like, yeah, clearly those are related. But I would phrase the issue slightly differently. I would say that one fundamental issue with Libertarian thinking is that it assumes something akin to old fashioned "free will." It would point out that SOME people do work on the mouse traps, and that while watching The Voice and drinking Budweiser might be an understandable response to cubicle drudgery, it is also "a choice the person makes." Some libertarians will go all abstract in their claims about what someone could or could not choose to do, that's very true. However, more grounded ones are referencing actual people doing the things they are talking about, to push back against claims that such behavior is somehow impossible. 

It is quite possible that such a claim is functionally identical to acknowledging "dependencies" or "coupling", we'd have to dive in deeper for me to figure that out. Maybe "free will" isn't the issue as much as some notion of "self-directedness." We all know that some percentage of poor people get out of poverty. A larger percentage don't. Out of those who don't, we have a lot who seem to be perennially making bad choices, which isn't very interesting in the context of this discussion (but could be in the context of other discussions). More interestingly, we also know that some percentage of poor people seem to make similar decisions to those who get out of poverty, but the dice never quite roll in their favor. So there is coupling, and there are probabilistic outcomes, and all that stuff. But even after acknowledging all that, the question remains to what extent the choices made by the individuals in question affect their outcomes.

And, of course, none of that is closely related to whether the cost of tree trimming is made cheaper by there being more than one person offering such services (a basic free market issue), nor whether or not a wealthy baron of industry should support random moocher relatives in luxury when it doesn't even make him happy to do so (a classic Rand example)





On Mon, Sep 28, 2020 at 11:42 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.

It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.

I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.


[⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.

On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
> In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense. 
>
> The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.
>
> Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .
>
> Libertarianism is nonsense.
>
> ----   Pat
>
> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>     This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.
>
>     Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
>
>       * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
>       * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
>       * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
>       * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
>       * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
>       * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
>       * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
>       * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
>       * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
>       * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
>       *
>
>         The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.
>
>       * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
>
>     Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
>     how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)
>
>
>     Eric C
>     <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
>
>     On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
>         Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
>         https://evonomics.com/why-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie/
>         "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
>         --
>         glen ⛧
>
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Re: ideas are lies

David Eric Smith
In reply to this post by thompnickson2
The Barrett talk and interview is very helpful, Nick, thank you.

Her ability to act on principle will certainly be tested in an era when everything is subjected to overwhelming political party pressure, to see what it will take to break it.

There’s also the issue of humans as storytellers.  People may believe that a set of values are desirable, but then be endlessly creative in finding rationalizations that get them to the endpoint they want.  Politicians, to greater or lesser degree, are Darwined on the basis of that talent; judges presumably less so as long as nobody wants something from them.

One would like to see a new constitutional convention, with people of comparable level of expertise in each of the specializations that bear on it, from judgment to legislation to roles of the executive, on the problem of “More is different”.  I think I recall that somewhere on this list within the past 2 years, someone commented that one of the Federalist Papers talked about the role of parties as a destabilizing force that could not adequately be anticipated by framers, and thus not adequately contained.  Considering how much such quotidian things as insurance contracts have been changed by social, legal, and just informational technologies, from the era when Lloyds of London insured transatlantic ships, one contract at a time created ad hoc, to the time of $250/year renters insurance as a commodity, the layers of machinery between people as citizens, and the government as nominally a jointly owned institution to do the citizenry’s publicly-performed work, have changed even more radically because they create a context that bears on everything else.  One can’t just punt on the design problem, any more than one can just neglect to repair and rebuild roads and bridges.  Oh, wait….

I like the fact that professionals hold themselves back in speaking, to at least be clear about which areas they know as experts and which they experience merely as citizens.  But there is a need for a big design picture that only comes into existence if professionals are willing to accept responsibility for laying a footprint in the domains they don’t understand as experts, as the only way to provide essential inputs.

Eric




> On Sep 28, 2020, at 2:12 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> EricS,
>
> Not stray at all.  I am glad we are having this discussion.
>
> As to the supreme ct pick, I thought that this interview
>
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7yjTEdZ81lI&feature=emb_rel_end
>
> might be a little consoling,  Focus on the last part where there is back and forth between her and the moderator.  She LISTENS.  Well, at least she nods and gives eyecontact.  As somebody who has a hard time doing either of those things, I admire it.  
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> [hidden email]
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>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of David Eric Smith
> Sent: Monday, September 28, 2020 11:17 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] ideas are lies
>
> Yeah, agree with Pat, agree with Glen.
>
> I will say it in a way that seems inevitably to be ruder, though I don’t wish to be rude.  I find libertarian thinking, in any forms I have encountered that have agency in the world, to be willfully disingenuous about the things that actually cause problems.
>
> A lot of this would not occur in a world where people have to build something that operationalizes whatever they say in words.  Nod to Marcus’s comments about the virtue of cashing out thoughts in algorithms.
>
> For years I wanted to write a paper called “There’s no such thing as a free market”, but I couldn’t find anything new to say that wasn’t already quite well said, and deliberately ignored, in extant discourse.  Define a “free market”, with the intended Chicago-economists’ notion of “free of coercive or more generally intrusive power”, which I will hold them to since they want to invoke Arrow’s and Hahn’s and Debreu’s existence proofs of optimal allocations.  Build me the social algorithm by which every action that I take, in each small moment of any day, that will ever have effects on me or anybody else anywhere, has all those consequences fully known to us all, and fully and fairly negotiated, before the next action I take (turn on the tap, throw a piece of plastic in the trash, start the engine of the car, eat food produced in a way that degrades land, use a battery with materials mined in Mongolia.)  The absurdity of the concept is so overwhelming that I can’t help but respond to people who treat it as existing as if they mean to be dishonest.  Everything else that isn’t within that perfect-costless-contract model is “externalities”.  Those include, ignorance, power, non-responsibility for consequences, non-existence or unenforcibility of laws, and on and on and on.
>
> That, to me, is where the problems occur, and a good-faith conversation engages with all the clarity we don’t have to deal with them.
>
> I also think Adam Smith’s name is taken in vain, again in a sleight of hand that switches intents of words that sound the same.  One can read his arguments, made in the context of his time and the power structures most active then, as an argument that decentralized optimization can do many things that centralized planning can’t, or that deliberately oppressive power structures such as churches or church/state complexes actively degrade.  As I understand it, Smith made all sorts of conditions about morally grounded societies, some kind of mechanism for regulation against abuses, etc.  Not to mention it was mostly agrarian, pre-financial, and the power all but the fewest people could accumulate was extremely limited.  Much of Smith’s argument has a similar flavor, as a problem-solving analysis, to Walter Bagehot’s later writing in Lombard Street, about the better performance of decentralized banking with fractional-reserve lending.  In context, they make a lot of sense.  Quoted as scripture in contexts where the words would represent quite different choices, they can be given all sorts of meanings that a counterpart to Smith, suffering under today’s abuses, would not espouse.
>
> I bother to write that because, with the question of how to handle the Coney Barrett appointment, there is a thing I don’t know how to A) think through, or B) express properly, and I don’t know which of those it is.
>
> By the accounts of people who follow such things professionally, she is a capable jurist and a decent person.  I can believe that.  Interestingly, having had some of the old interviews of Scalia and Ginsburg played for me in the past week (great watching if you want to hear an advocacy of originalism and living-text made by people with skin and brain in the game), Scalia seems to stand for many not only sensible, but even decent positions.  
>
> However, in the creep that destroys the world, what are the arguments about how it should play out and how it does?
>
> I can see one argument for “originalism” as being that those who ratified the constitution in 1788 had suffered more, risked more, and thought more, than an average modern judge, and what they intended things to mean should not lightly be discarded by whoever comes along in each new generation.  I think that would be Scalia’s argument, to the effect that the power of judges to re-architect the country should be limited by the constitution, which it is the job of congress to amend (come back to that in a minute).
>
> But then how does that work?  There was all kinds of stuff that didn’t exist in 1788.  So how does it work out that the right-aligned jurists consistently come down on the side of rulings that give those who have excessively concentrated power the collaboration of the law in concentrating that power — I take this to be Pat’s assertion, and I agree — no matter how destructive the means (here I mean citizens united, nullification of the pre-reporting requirement in the voting rights act, whatever that was, but probably lots more that I would know if I knew this area), while those who do not have concentrated power do not have the law as protection from oppressive use by those who do have it?  I don’t see how one gets from “originalism” to Citizens United.  
>
> And to the extent that ACB is considered a studious adherent to Scalia’s originalism, but with less than Scalia’s originality in recognizing important times to deviate, she is expected to be more mechanical in driving the style of decisions people expected from him.  But the mismatch between the rhetoric, and the cumulative effects on the role of law in the society, seem drastic after these many decades.
>
> Which brings us to the wider question (which a scientist would not pursue, knowing that he needs to focus on refining the accuracy of one point of data):  What the hell is taking place in the large-scale play of power in this country around this period?
>
> Here are some things I have heard that seem valid, granting that I don’t have expertise to judge.
>
> 1.  For a party to control congress requires the coordination or coercion of some 260 or so people, which even the more corrupt and authoritarian societies can struggle to achieve.
> 2. An organ like SCOTUS has 9 people and votes by majority.  The control role may be more limited, but the numbers are certainly a lot smaller.
> 3. I heard yesterday from Durbin that the senate passed 22 pieces of law last year.  Certainly none of them addressing important ways in which our society has changed since 1788 that would reflect a new role for law.  I think the big one was the tax cut for the rich.  There were probably also some farm bill things, which from my reading of the farm columns involve some extraordinary debt-financed bailouts to try to buy republican votes for this election.  MMcC calls himself “the grim reaper”, to boast that he allows nothing to be done.
> 4. So it seems to me not unfair to say that the R position these days is to do no work themselves, and to block any work the Ds try to do, so that the congress does as close to nothing as possible.
> 5. This means that legislating has now been bounced to the courts, with SCOTUS as the court of last appeal.  Rather than write laws to address needs, the judges are asked to issue “interpretations” of ancient law for modern problems, and thus de facto define what the modern law is, bypassing congress.
> 6. No wonder it is such an ultra-high priority for Rs to stack every court they can, and perhaps also explicable that it is less of a priority for Ds, since they wouldn’t mind using the congress to do things, and so are not so exclusively focused on SCOTUS as a locus of control.   What “the voters” think is not something I find organic, as there is a highly sophisticated machinery to install what “the voters” think.  
>
> So if one wanted a senate hearing on the ACB appointment that meant no disrespect to the person, but was about the substance of both her judicial method, and the context of power dynamics in which it will be applied, the above list seems to me to be where the causality lies.
>
> Even if there were politicians who could speak plainly (rather than in the ultra-sterilized talk that is required these days), I can’t imagine a conversation’s being transacted in that frame.  Yet, short of that frame, I don’t see what else meaningfully addresses important sources of near-existential problems for the governance of the US.
>
> I guess that wandered off the strict thread.
>
> Eric
>
>
>> On Sep 28, 2020, at 11:42 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Pat's comments are interestingly powerful as a response to EricC's comments. I don't remember getting this sense from the recent thread on meritocracy. But my main objection to the existence of meritocracy is its assumption of linearity/orthogonality, a lack of friction between the various sliding dimensions of life. EricC talks mainly [⛧] about disagreeing with individual sentences, regardless of Fix's compoisitonal *narrative*. And the other thread about economic mobility assumes the same materially open, formally closed, permanent underclass required by capitalism.
>>
>> It all seems to point to this tendency/ability of libertarians to "separate concerns" ... e.g. one's attendance to a PTA meeting is assumed to be decoupled from one's status as a wage slave ... or the artificial separation between, say, one's ability to vote despite not being able to take the day off. Or even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle.
>>
>> I don't agree that libertarianism is nonsense. But the sense it does make is false, at odds with reality, primarily because reality is replete with cross-terms and couplings ignored by its assumptions.
>>
>>
>> [⛧] I think the "free-market thinking promotes power relations" is a mere lemma in the argument. The thesis seems to be that free market thinking limits market freedom. That paradox is what makes it so insidious.
>>
>> On 9/27/20 8:43 PM, Patrick Reilly wrote:
>>> In my experience, Libertarian ideas when offered at any level above the most basic are almost always justifying the interests of those who control wealth. The key myth of Libertarianism is that those who control wealth on any given day MUST be morally worthy of this control.  Which is nonsense.
>>>
>>> The model that any action to disempower the powerful, i.e., the wealthy, and redistribute their power, i.e., share wealth that essentially has fallen under the control of a small group of "elites" little regard to justice, is morally bankrupt is advanced only by ideologues who are (often intentionally) blind to actual economic history.
>>>
>>> Just one case in point, the standardization of computer Operating Systems was inevitable. Gates was a clever and hard working industrialist, but the key business opportunity that he rode to billions was almost purely created by his ruthlessness married with both an unforeseen timing of technology development and conditions not of his making.  In other words, if he had failed to be an ambitious and smart creep, he would have been defeated by a smarter creep . . . someone had to end up in the lead position in this "winner take all" nature that we still find ourselves in . . .
>>>
>>> Libertarianism is nonsense.
>>>
>>> ----   Pat
>>>
>>> On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 7:51 PM Eric Charles <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>   This article is absolutely fascinating! I think that if we just took each sentence individually, I would disagree with around 60% of them. That is being generous and assuming the author is accurately reporting what other authors are saying. If you allow for my disagreeing with those cited (while not disputing the citation itself), that could easily bring me as high as disagreeing with 80% of the individual sentences. That is making it very hard for me to assess what I think of the overall argument. It seems quite plausible that "free-market thinking promotes power relations" in a particular historic context, which seems to be one of the main theses of the argument... but the author is covering at least a dozen deep topics that are in no way necessary to make that argument, and is not demonstrating a deep understanding of any of them.
>>>
>>>   Here are some example sentences from throughout the paper that seem confused. Some might merely be massive overgeneralizations, but even that seems pretty problematic in the context of the argument being made:
>>>
>>>     * Free-market ideology claims that to help society, we must help ourselves. If we all act selfishly, the thinking goes, the invisible hand will make everyone better off. So here we have an ideology that promotes selfishness in the name of group benefit. It’s a Machiavellian lie that should be caustic to social cohesion.
>>>     * According to the theory of multilevel selection, there is /always/ a disconnect between the interests of a group, and the interests of individuals within the group.
>>>     * So for groups to be successful, they must suppress the selfish behavior of individuals. There are many ways of doing this, but the most common is probably /punishment/. To encourage altruistic behavior, groups punish self-serving individuals.
>>>     * But while punishing deviance is universal to all social organisms, humans have developed a method for suppressing selfishness that is unique. To promote prosocial behavior, we harness the power of ideas. We /lie/ to ourselves.
>>>     * According to evolutionary theory, Rand’s Machiavellian lie ought to be caustic to group cohesion.
>>>     * /power relations/ qualify as a type of altruism. In a power relation, one person submits to the will of another. Bob submits to Alice. By doing so, Bob sacrifices his own fitness for the benefit of Alice. That’s altruism. But if Bob’s subservience only benefited Alice, it would be an evolutionary dead end. The Bobs of the world would die out, having given all their resources to the Alices. Since power relations have not died out, something more must be going on.
>>>     * On the face of it, freedom and power seem to be opposites.
>>>     * Business firms, you may have noticed, don’t use the market to organize their internal activities. They use hierarchy. Firms have a chain of command that tells employees what to do. Given this fact, the growth of large firms is as much an assault on the free market as is the growth of government.
>>>     * To measure the growth of private hierarchy, I’ll use the size of the management class — the portion of people employed as ‘managers’. Here’s my reasoning. Managers work at the tops of hierarchies.
>>>     * Anthropologists Carla Handley and Sarah Mathew recently found that cultural variation between human groups is far greater than genetic variation. Put simply, this means that ideas matter. What we /think/ probably affects our behavior more than our genes.
>>>     *
>>>
>>>       The reason is that human life is marked by a fundamental tension. We are social animals who compete as groups. For our group’s sake, it’s best if we act altruistically. But for our /own/ sake, it’s better to be a selfish bastard. How to suppress this selfish behavior is the fundamental problem of social life.      The solution that most cultures have hit upon is to lie.
>>>
>>>     * The alternative is that free-market ideas /do/ promote altruism … just not the kind we’re used to thinking about. They promote altruism through power relations. And they do so through doublespeak. Free-market ideology uses the language of ‘freedom’ to promote the accumulation of power.
>>>
>>>   Just for a taste of why this all seems so weird: "Free market ideology" is not the promotion of selfishness writ large, it is the idea that people should look for beneficial deals when buying and selling goods. Like, if you could buy a car for $15,000, or get an equivalent car for $12,000, you should buy the cheaper one; but if you are selling, and you could sell for $12,000 or $15,000, you should sell for the higher price. That's it. Free market ideology has nothing to do with whether you should support the local PTA or whether you should invest in your children beyond the time-corrected dollar value you expect them to give you in return. And similarly, my manager's ability to tell me what to do at work has little to do with whether I buy rice in bulk at the asian grocery where it is cheaper.  (And if you want to talk about Ayn Rand as promoting selfishness writ large, then we would need a separate conversation about what "selfish" means in an "Objectivist" context, and
>>>   how that has only a loose relation with "free market ideology".)
>>>
>>>
>>>   Eric C
>>>   <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>>
>>>
>>>   On Sun, Sep 27, 2020 at 5:24 PM ⛧ glen <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>>>
>>>       Why Free Market Ideology is a Double Lie
>>>       https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fevonomics.com%2fwhy-free-market-ideology-is-a-double-lie%2f&c=E,1,d2TnMVUh7KVPhp7lLOjPS60gXNNEZz6qiD8G3plDleoUYApuONZKAEuZlWeuhTTYFPFEb1-lRiWwHFw2gWpRDcvIRibx9tM6OuExB8uwHyCGDI8ucukQCaEx&typo=1
>>>       "So yes, free-market thinking is a lie. But it’s not the lie you think it is."
>>>       --
>>>       glen ⛧
>>>
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deductive fidelity (was Re: ideas are lies)

gepr
In reply to this post by Eric Charles-2
Well, the reason I titled the post "ideas are lies" was in part due to our faith in deduction. If only we could hammer out the credibility of each sentence, we could automatically transform one truth into another truth. But we cannot. So, your radical skepticism regarding each sentence *facilitates* motivated reasoning. You can doubt the conclusion solely because you hold up deduction as ideal.

But that's not how humans work. Human deduction is a dangerous idea. And it's just as much a lie as the free market or the orthogonality of social systems. Deduction is nicely computational. And many of us would love to live in a computational Utopia.

Instead, humans are driven by consequence, constraint solving, as opposed to deduction. We arbitrarily (not randomly) *sample* the spaces in which we find ourselves. In this context, too, the assumptions of libertarianism are at odds with reality because libertarianism assumes a well-behaved *space* for us to explore. It's not a matter of individual free will. It's a matter of path dependence and historicity. Joe Sixpack's available space, like everyone else's, was bound by constraints before he ever *had* free will in the first place. Yes, the choices he makes at age 30 constrain/guide the possible choices he can make at age 50. But similarly, the choices he makes at age 0.1 constrain/guide the choices he can make at age 30.

Most importantly for libertarianism's falsity, the choices Joe Sixpack can make at age 0.1 are constrained/guided by choices made by those in his various communities (geographic, informational, etc.), 30 years before Joe was ever born. Socialist systems like anarcho-syndicalism attempt to *design* society to optimize for freedom and competence. Individualist systems like libertarianism abdicate any responsibility to design society and then blame the victim for not solving problems it never had the chance to solve.

If you want individuals to spend less time in space X, then *minimize* the size of space X. Don't blame the individuals born inside space X for their failure to escape that space. Buck up and start *designing* the world. Even Hayek would advocate that *where* you know how to do it, then do it. That's what justified his naive arguments that where you *don't* know how to do it, don't do it.

Of course, because we only have 1 world, we have limited protocols by which to experiment. And most experiments are unethical. So we have to a) be manipulationist/perturbationist and b) quickly admit mistakes and re-manipulate when our actions cause more pain. Or we can simply plunge our heads in the sand, rationalizing our luck with post-hoc delusions about our own competence and "well-made decisions" while the unlucky riffraff suffer in droves around us.


On 9/28/20 5:33 PM, Eric Charles wrote:

> To Glen's point.... it's hard to evaluate the overall argument of a piece when almost every factual claim seems factually wrong, and a decent chunk of those claims are in my area of ostensible expertise... The entire "evolutionary psychology" part is just bunk...  I've also had enough training in economics, anthropology, philosophy, and other areas to suspect that much of the coverage of that is bunk..... so even if I could wade through enough to judge the conclusion, there is definitely no world in which I agree with the argument. When I say I'm suspicious of most sentences, that includes the transition sentences that create "the narrative." He says "X. And X therefore Y. So Y, and if Y we should definitely Z", and I not only think X is wrong, but also that even if X were true it would /not /necessitate Y; and even if Y was necessitated, that wouldn't mean we should Z. 
> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>
> I think the comment about Libertarians assuming decoupling is /much /more interesting than all points in the original article put together. Well worth breaking out into a different thread, level interesting. That would be a way, way better discussion.... in contrast with trying to figure out what it would mean for evolution (?) to favor (?) a massive-fiction-masquerading-as-a-Machiavellian-lie that either originated in the 1770s or in the late 1940s (unclear which). 
>
> You said: Libertarians aren't "even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle."
>
> And, like, yeah, clearly those are related. But I would phrase the issue slightly differently. I would say that one fundamental issue with Libertarian thinking is that it assumes something akin to old fashioned "free will." It would point out that SOME people do work on the mouse traps, and that while watching The Voice and drinking Budweiser might be an understandable response to cubicle drudgery, it is also "a choice the person makes." Some libertarians will go all abstract in their claims about what someone could or could not choose to do, that's very true. However, more grounded ones are referencing actual people doing the things they are talking about, to push back against claims that such behavior is somehow impossible. 
>
> It is quite possible that such a claim is functionally identical to acknowledging "dependencies" or "coupling", we'd have to dive in deeper for me to figure that out. Maybe "free will" isn't the issue as much as some notion of "self-directedness." We all know that some percentage of poor people get out of poverty. A larger percentage don't. Out of those who don't, we have a lot who seem to be perennially making bad choices, which isn't very interesting in the context of this discussion (but could be in the context of other discussions). More interestingly, we also know that some percentage of poor people seem to make similar decisions to those who get out of poverty, but the dice never quite roll in their favor. So there is coupling, and there are probabilistic outcomes, and all that stuff. But even after acknowledging all that, the question remains to what extent the choices made by the individuals in question affect their outcomes.
>
> And, of course, none of that is closely related to whether the cost of tree trimming is made cheaper by there being more than one person offering such services (a basic free market issue), nor whether or not a wealthy baron of industry should support random moocher relatives in luxury when it doesn't even make him happy to do so (a classic Rand example)

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: deductive fidelity (was Re: ideas are lies)

Steve Smith
Glen -

I find this "phase space" model of social (and more aptly personal)
dynamics very compelling.  It helps me to understand the myriad
accusations I have endured in my life of having *this privilege* or
*that privilege*... it was always offered (or at least taken) as a moral
failure on my part.   Realizing that the momentum component of the phase
space is in some ways more important than the 0th derivatives is very
helpful.   I could riff on anecdotal examples, as is my wont, but I am
refraining.   The *larger* socioeconomic system/landscape is clearly a
complex system where in many regions, outcomes *are* highly sensitive to
initial conditions.  I can reflect on my own life and notice how many
"saddle passes" or "bifurcation points" I transitioned over/through and
see how "but for the grace of Gawdess, there go I" when I notice others
in my cadre whose orbits didn't take them *quite* up to/over those
saddles/bifurcations, and if him properly humble, notice those who *did*
leave my orbit and tumble on into a whole new regime (a hoodlum I used
to cause trouble with in middle school now owns his own private jet and
flies parts all over central/south america and lives a lavish lifestyle,
a peer of my daughters is a famous movie director who got a break
apprenticing with James Cameron 20 years ago, etc.).  

Like the dynamic experience of downhill skiing and mogul
bashing/carving, however, I am left trying to understand the role of
agency and free-will in the slopes we "choose" to ski and the shape the
runs take on under the edges of our skis (willful choices)?

- Steve

On 9/29/20 8:31 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> Well, the reason I titled the post "ideas are lies" was in part due to our faith in deduction. If only we could hammer out the credibility of each sentence, we could automatically transform one truth into another truth. But we cannot. So, your radical skepticism regarding each sentence *facilitates* motivated reasoning. You can doubt the conclusion solely because you hold up deduction as ideal.
>
> But that's not how humans work. Human deduction is a dangerous idea. And it's just as much a lie as the free market or the orthogonality of social systems. Deduction is nicely computational. And many of us would love to live in a computational Utopia.
>
> Instead, humans are driven by consequence, constraint solving, as opposed to deduction. We arbitrarily (not randomly) *sample* the spaces in which we find ourselves. In this context, too, the assumptions of libertarianism are at odds with reality because libertarianism assumes a well-behaved *space* for us to explore. It's not a matter of individual free will. It's a matter of path dependence and historicity. Joe Sixpack's available space, like everyone else's, was bound by constraints before he ever *had* free will in the first place. Yes, the choices he makes at age 30 constrain/guide the possible choices he can make at age 50. But similarly, the choices he makes at age 0.1 constrain/guide the choices he can make at age 30.
>
> Most importantly for libertarianism's falsity, the choices Joe Sixpack can make at age 0.1 are constrained/guided by choices made by those in his various communities (geographic, informational, etc.), 30 years before Joe was ever born. Socialist systems like anarcho-syndicalism attempt to *design* society to optimize for freedom and competence. Individualist systems like libertarianism abdicate any responsibility to design society and then blame the victim for not solving problems it never had the chance to solve.
>
> If you want individuals to spend less time in space X, then *minimize* the size of space X. Don't blame the individuals born inside space X for their failure to escape that space. Buck up and start *designing* the world. Even Hayek would advocate that *where* you know how to do it, then do it. That's what justified his naive arguments that where you *don't* know how to do it, don't do it.
>
> Of course, because we only have 1 world, we have limited protocols by which to experiment. And most experiments are unethical. So we have to a) be manipulationist/perturbationist and b) quickly admit mistakes and re-manipulate when our actions cause more pain. Or we can simply plunge our heads in the sand, rationalizing our luck with post-hoc delusions about our own competence and "well-made decisions" while the unlucky riffraff suffer in droves around us.
>
>
> On 9/28/20 5:33 PM, Eric Charles wrote:
>> To Glen's point.... it's hard to evaluate the overall argument of a piece when almost every factual claim seems factually wrong, and a decent chunk of those claims are in my area of ostensible expertise... The entire "evolutionary psychology" part is just bunk...  I've also had enough training in economics, anthropology, philosophy, and other areas to suspect that much of the coverage of that is bunk..... so even if I could wade through enough to judge the conclusion, there is definitely no world in which I agree with the argument. When I say I'm suspicious of most sentences, that includes the transition sentences that create "the narrative." He says "X. And X therefore Y. So Y, and if Y we should definitely Z", and I not only think X is wrong, but also that even if X were true it would /not /necessitate Y; and even if Y was necessitated, that wouldn't mean we should Z. 
>> <mailto:[hidden email]>
>>
>> I think the comment about Libertarians assuming decoupling is /much /more interesting than all points in the original article put together. Well worth breaking out into a different thread, level interesting. That would be a way, way better discussion.... in contrast with trying to figure out what it would mean for evolution (?) to favor (?) a massive-fiction-masquerading-as-a-Machiavellian-lie that either originated in the 1770s or in the late 1940s (unclear which). 
>>
>> You said: Libertarians aren't "even questioning why Joe Sixpack would prefer to watch The Voice and drink Budweiser over inventing mouse traps in his basement, after having spent the last 8 hours being ordered around by someone half his age in a flourescent lit cubicle."
>>
>> And, like, yeah, clearly those are related. But I would phrase the issue slightly differently. I would say that one fundamental issue with Libertarian thinking is that it assumes something akin to old fashioned "free will." It would point out that SOME people do work on the mouse traps, and that while watching The Voice and drinking Budweiser might be an understandable response to cubicle drudgery, it is also "a choice the person makes." Some libertarians will go all abstract in their claims about what someone could or could not choose to do, that's very true. However, more grounded ones are referencing actual people doing the things they are talking about, to push back against claims that such behavior is somehow impossible. 
>>
>> It is quite possible that such a claim is functionally identical to acknowledging "dependencies" or "coupling", we'd have to dive in deeper for me to figure that out. Maybe "free will" isn't the issue as much as some notion of "self-directedness." We all know that some percentage of poor people get out of poverty. A larger percentage don't. Out of those who don't, we have a lot who seem to be perennially making bad choices, which isn't very interesting in the context of this discussion (but could be in the context of other discussions). More interestingly, we also know that some percentage of poor people seem to make similar decisions to those who get out of poverty, but the dice never quite roll in their favor. So there is coupling, and there are probabilistic outcomes, and all that stuff. But even after acknowledging all that, the question remains to what extent the choices made by the individuals in question affect their outcomes.
>>
>> And, of course, none of that is closely related to whether the cost of tree trimming is made cheaper by there being more than one person offering such services (a basic free market issue), nor whether or not a wealthy baron of industry should support random moocher relatives in luxury when it doesn't even make him happy to do so (a classic Rand example)


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Re: deductive fidelity (was Re: ideas are lies)

gepr
Yep. And I agree that the scopes of individual decisions vs. group decisions are unclear and not at all yet *backed by data*. What is the relationship between having good knees that can provide the agility and strength that carries one down through the mogul versus the industry that created the skis versus the [epi]genetics of the skier's parents? We don't know. But we *do* know that it's not *entirely* the fault of the skier when their knees fail and they tumble down to broken bones. That latter is the libertarian approach. They should have worked harder. Or they're just not "cut out" for it.

What we need is a data-driven approach to the design of our society, not a pre-installed ideology for how a society should be designed.

On 9/29/20 8:28 AM, Steve Smith wrote:
> Like the dynamic experience of downhill skiing and mogul
> bashing/carving, however, I am left trying to understand the role of
> agency and free-will in the slopes we "choose" to ski and the shape the
> runs take on under the edges of our skis (willful choices)?

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: deductive fidelity (was Re: ideas are lies)

Marcus G. Daniels
Glen writes:

< What we need is a data-driven approach to the design of our society, not a pre-installed ideology for how a society should be designed. >

Don't wish something is true about people, insist upon it.    Say, if people don't wear their seat belt:  If they are injured in an accident, they need to be left to die.   Don't say social security is a good idea, set it aside; make the money unreachable.   IIRC, this is how it is done in Japan.

Marcus
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Re: deductive fidelity (was Re: ideas are lies)

gepr
Well, part of any data-driven policy would be rolling them back as well as enacting them. To that end, before enacting it, we'd have to define conditions that would trigger its rollback. E.g. when cars get airbags and are driven automatically by credible algorithms, rollback the seatbelt law. When we install universal basic income and poverty levels go below a given mark, rollback some entitlements. Etc.

On 9/29/20 11:16 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Don't wish something is true about people, insist upon it.    Say, if people don't wear their seat belt:  If they are injured in an accident, they need to be left to die.   Don't say social security is a good idea, set it aside; make the money unreachable.   IIRC, this is how it is done in Japan.


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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: deductive fidelity (was Re: ideas are lies)

Marcus G. Daniels
As EricC mentioned, free will is baked into the libertarian thinking.   That's just some random thing they believe for no good reason.   Some degree of mercy is baked even in to some Republican thinking.   Don't appeal to "soft" organizations like churches and charities to fix the things that government leaves broken.   That leaves power (to abuse) on the table.   Design it to _work_.    Observe (or accept) the hard consequences of rigid and incorrect systems and fix (or ignore) them.    

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Tuesday, September 29, 2020 12:04 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] deductive fidelity (was Re: ideas are lies)

Well, part of any data-driven policy would be rolling them back as well as enacting them. To that end, before enacting it, we'd have to define conditions that would trigger its rollback. E.g. when cars get airbags and are driven automatically by credible algorithms, rollback the seatbelt law. When we install universal basic income and poverty levels go below a given mark, rollback some entitlements. Etc.

On 9/29/20 11:16 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> Don't wish something is true about people, insist upon it.    Say, if people don't wear their seat belt:  If they are injured in an accident, they need to be left to die.   Don't say social security is a good idea, set it aside; make the money unreachable.   IIRC, this is how it is done in Japan.


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