enough sleep?
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If you’re not sleeping at work, you should be fired
https://theconversation.com/if-youre-not-sleeping-at-work-you-should-be-fired-114006 I'm skeptical of the argument that "we're" not getting enough sleep. Just this morning, after getting plenty of good sleep last night (helped along by some Peruvian chaufa), my exercise performance this morning was terrible ... whereas my "regular" night's sleep of 5 hours produced excellent performance over the last month or so. Stories aside, by what measure(s) do we judge health, recovery, alertness, engagedness, etc ... the bait presented at the beginning of this article? Again, just for me, a nap destroys my productivity. But aperiodic *distractions* seem to improve my productivity. When I finish the first draft of a report, for example, it's good to go for a bike ride before the 2nd iteration. Taking a nap just makes me sleepy and want to watch TV. However, when I am well (over?) rested like today, I tend to wax philosophical and am attracted by Deep Thoughts™. So, I can see why the gist of the article would match someone's intuition. But intuition is not reliable. The data I keep on, e.g., my weight lifting regimen seems to show that I perform better when I'm consistent, regardless of the amount of sleep I get. When I get the same amount each and every night, then I perform better. I don't keep data on my fugues into Deep Thoughts™, though ... maybe I should. 8^) ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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The nature of our economy rewards people that keep their nose to the grindstone. Locally it is a good optimization, but globally you work till you drop. Maybe you go on a Viking River Cruise or something while you are reaching completion. I have a lot of sleep momentum and require lots of coffee to get to the point where I assent to the internally posed question of "Why the f*ck would I want to do that?"
On 4/9/19, 9:33 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: If you’re not sleeping at work, you should be fired https://theconversation.com/if-youre-not-sleeping-at-work-you-should-be-fired-114006 I'm skeptical of the argument that "we're" not getting enough sleep. Just this morning, after getting plenty of good sleep last night (helped along by some Peruvian chaufa), my exercise performance this morning was terrible ... whereas my "regular" night's sleep of 5 hours produced excellent performance over the last month or so. Stories aside, by what measure(s) do we judge health, recovery, alertness, engagedness, etc ... the bait presented at the beginning of this article? Again, just for me, a nap destroys my productivity. But aperiodic *distractions* seem to improve my productivity. When I finish the first draft of a report, for example, it's good to go for a bike ride before the 2nd iteration. Taking a nap just makes me sleepy and want to watch TV. However, when I am well (over?) rested like today, I tend to wax philosophical and am attracted by Deep Thoughts™. So, I can see why the gist of the article would match someone's intuition. But intuition is not reliable. The data I keep on, e.g., my weight lifting regimen seems to show that I perform better when I'm consistent, regardless of the amount of sleep I get. When I get the same amount each and every night, then I perform better. I don't keep data on my fugues into Deep Thoughts™, though ... maybe I should. 8^) ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Heh, I usually wake up angry. So, if I didn't work out in the morning, I'd be an even worse person than I already am.
On 4/9/19 8:46 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The nature of our economy rewards people that keep their nose to the grindstone. Locally it is a good optimization, but globally you work till you drop. Maybe you go on a Viking River Cruise or something while you are reaching completion. I have a lot of sleep momentum and require lots of coffee to get to the point where I assent to the internally posed question of "Why the f*ck would I want to do that?" -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Hmm well no 9 to start On Tue, Apr 9, 2019, 9:46 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: The nature of our economy rewards people that keep their nose to the grindstone. Locally it is a good optimization, but globally you work till you drop. Maybe you go on a Viking River Cruise or something while you are reaching completion. I have a lot of sleep momentum and require lots of coffee to get to the point where I assent to the internally posed question of "Why the f*ck would I want to do that?" ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by gepr
As a dutiful brick in the wall, I do it last, assuming work is going along ok. If not, I keep working. But I need that sleep.
On 4/9/19, 11:38 AM, "Friam on behalf of uǝlƃ ☣" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: Heh, I usually wake up angry. So, if I didn't work out in the morning, I'd be an even worse person than I already am. On 4/9/19 8:46 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The nature of our economy rewards people that keep their nose to the grindstone. Locally it is a good optimization, but globally you work till you drop. Maybe you go on a Viking River Cruise or something while you are reaching completion. I have a lot of sleep momentum and require lots of coffee to get to the point where I assent to the internally posed question of "Why the f*ck would I want to do that?" -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
I go back and forth between being a stark raving mad free-marketeer and being a stark raving mad socialist. The former says that we need to keep our noses to the grindstone in order to compete (or in the past, to merely survive). The latter says that those filthy rich bastards keep the noses of the working class to the grindstone not so much to get more work out of them, but to keep them afraid, and therefore keep them in line and grateful for their small nibble of the pie. When I worked for small startups (BiosGroup, Bioreason, NCGR), I always felt that there was a legitimate need to keep my nose well whetted on that grindstone, and that when there were worries and rumors about potential layoffs, that they were for legitimate concerns about survival. On the other hand, in my fifteen years at big companies (EDS, Perot Systems),while similar signals did serve the genuine need to get rid of a few slackers, they mainly served to make sure nobody complained about poor management. Nowadays, as automation increasingly takes on the objective need for hard work, societies are going to face some very tough decisions about how to distribute the wealth produced by these automatons (assuming the automatons are willing to continue sharing). IMHO :-) On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 10:47 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: The nature of our economy rewards people that keep their nose to the grindstone. Locally it is a good optimization, but globally you work till you drop. Maybe you go on a Viking River Cruise or something while you are reaching completion. I have a lot of sleep momentum and require lots of coffee to get to the point where I assent to the internally posed question of "Why the f*ck would I want to do that?" ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Gary writes: “The former says that we need to keep our noses to the grindstone in order to compete (or in the past, to merely survive).” At least the corporation-centric view makes some sense. As far as group survival goes, these days, I take a pretty globalist view. The folks that assume there is a group, and that we are both members
of it, are mistaken. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Glen (and Marcus) -
Interesting points to ponder... I definitely don't ascribe to "one size fits all" in any domain where I have personal experience. My personal experience differs from both of yours *and* from that implied by the article. My experience is subjective of course. I *feel* like I've (most) always gotten enough sleep, and that has varied in absolute measures from roughly 5-6 hours a night with a (near) daily catnap to 8-10 hours. Part of the reason I may feel I've always had enough sleep is that I've always made it a point to arrange my life to fit my personal rhythms as best I can rather than vice-versa. When I"m busy and engaged, I usually feel I need less sleep. I (most) always arrange to wake naturally rather than to the ring of an alarm. I used to generally prefer late nights and mornings arranged according to need (sleep in when I could, but up earliesh when needed). I rarely felt sleep deprived or challenged with lack of focus from lack of sleep. My knockoff "fitbit" monitor indicated otherwise (over many months of using it) where it reported that I didn't get enough "deep sleep". Perhaps this is true, because I *do* prefer light sleep or moving in and out of hypnagogic/hypnapompic states with lots of elaborate dreaming. But by my wellness tracker's measure, I was *never* getting a good night's sleep and at least subjectively I did not miss it one bit. Perhaps I've *never* had a good night's sleep and wouldn't recognize it if I did. The only contradiction to this is that when I am utterly exhausted physically, I DO tend to sleep soundly and awake "yet more" refreshed than usual if I get a solid 6-8 hours of sleep... so maybe I"m just habituated to "weak sleep habits" and wouldn't know truly rested and focused if I saw it? I found the following article interesting in broad arc (not enough detail nor time to follow up references) on the topic of "everything in it's time": https://buffer.com/resources/your-bodys-best-time-for-everything-how-to-eat-sleep-and-work-more-efficiently This post (and the linked article) also reminded me of discovering the historical research on human "biphasic sleep", or "two sleeps" (or more generally "segmented sleep"). I believe this criteria is met by cultures/people who are prone to the "siesta" as well as those who have a period of wakefulness in the middle of the night. I am a fan of both/either as they fit your lifestyle. I also live with two dogs (and a cat) who nap *all the time* and while they occasionally present as "groggy" when woken abruptly, they mostly slide in and out of sleep according to need, efficiently and well as best I can tell. - Steve PS. I agree with any/all implications that our society is structured around regulating individual behaviour to create a "replaceable part" mentality and a sense of scarcity (including sleep?) that keeps everyone motivated to "perform". I've done my time in those models and probably through hysteresis, continue so, but avoid being driven by overt "societal forces" as best I can, and try to look to my inner rhythms as informed by those of the world I live in (sun, moon, plants, animals, etc.) over those provided by things like 8-5 workday, 5 day workweek, daylight savings time, IRS filing deadlines, etc. On 4/9/19 9:46 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > The nature of our economy rewards people that keep their nose to the grindstone. Locally it is a good optimization, but globally you work till you drop. Maybe you go on a Viking River Cruise or something while you are reaching completion. I have a lot of sleep momentum and require lots of coffee to get to the point where I assent to the internally posed question of "Why the f*ck would I want to do that?" > > On 4/9/19, 9:33 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: > > If you’re not sleeping at work, you should be fired > https://theconversation.com/if-youre-not-sleeping-at-work-you-should-be-fired-114006 > > I'm skeptical of the argument that "we're" not getting enough sleep. Just this morning, after getting plenty of good sleep last night (helped along by some Peruvian chaufa), my exercise performance this morning was terrible ... whereas my "regular" night's sleep of 5 hours produced excellent performance over the last month or so. Stories aside, by what measure(s) do we judge health, recovery, alertness, engagedness, etc ... the bait presented at the beginning of this article? > > Again, just for me, a nap destroys my productivity. But aperiodic *distractions* seem to improve my productivity. When I finish the first draft of a report, for example, it's good to go for a bike ride before the 2nd iteration. Taking a nap just makes me sleepy and want to watch TV. However, when I am well (over?) rested like today, I tend to wax philosophical and am attracted by Deep Thoughts™. So, I can see why the gist of the article would match someone's intuition. But intuition is not reliable. The data I keep on, e.g., my weight lifting regimen seems to show that I perform better when I'm consistent, regardless of the amount of sleep I get. When I get the same amount each and every night, then I perform better. I don't keep data on my fugues into Deep Thoughts™, though ... maybe I should. 8^) > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Steve writes:
"I also live with two dogs (and a cat) who nap *all the time* and while they occasionally present as "groggy" when woken abruptly, they mostly slide in and out of sleep according to need, efficiently and well as best I can tell." I've got a big shepherd mix dog who is never really out as far as I can tell. Also I've got a high-energy heeler who can wake up in seconds and be across the house in seconds flat. The same dog does sleep at night and can actually need to be woken, like a person. She can be groggy and uncoordinated for five minutes or more. It's hilarious. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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I'll see your Shepherd-mix and Heeler and raise you a purebred
Akita and a Doberman mix. Our Akita is as aloof and singularly
loyal as they are reputed to be while our Dobie is as high-energy
and Skitchy as THEY can be reputed to be. But what seems to
dominate our little family (2 adult humans, one old Akita, one
middle-aged Dobie, a very old cat) is the pairwise (and somewise
3-ary and 4-ary) relations. Each dog responds differently to each
human and they have their own relationship, and each dog a
different relationship with the cat. Regarding your Heeler, I have to admit I've never really known a
(healthy) dog that didn't wake quickly and easily most of the
time. But my sampling is tiny! Our Akita (particularly in old
age, but also by nature) is very slow to react physically but
seems to be quick to come to awareness... he seems to need to
contemplate *everything* including known food treats, and isn't
prone to rise or move unless there is something known to be good
in the deal, and despite affecting disinterest in most everything
seems to be paying (covert) attention all of the time. And of course, I don't know what all to think about human-canine similarity given that we seem to have co-evolved WITH them. Their shorter generations suggest THEY can evolve faster than WE, but there does seem to be evidence that WE are what/who WE are because we had dog-companions among us, even if only as scrounging camp-followers for many millennia? Looking around for a popular science style article to reference, I found this NatGeo one: I am mildly disappointed that they reference only Wolves among Canines who might have "domesticated us"... it seems more like some of the more omnivorous, less-apex predators like foxes or coyotes or dingos might have been our first, or most likely companions, cleaning up our waste and providing some level of "intruder alert" in exchange for the good-scavenge we likely left behind, long before we let them sleep in our tents or tend our babies, retrieve our ducks, tree our lions, or pull our travois. I was also disappointed at the human-caused-extinction-of-large-carnivores-and-other-megafauna references without backup... I am inclined to want to believe our current anthropogenic climate change is only the most recent (and extravagant) of Homo Sapiens' tipping of the balance of dynamic systems such as the earth's climate or the top end of the ecological food-chain, but I also think there has been a lot of evidence questioning those theories.
- Steve
On 4/9/19 4:01 PM, Marcus Daniels
wrote:
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Pardon my interuption again, if you need to ask if you or a group are recharged enough. The answer might be no. An aquaintence of mine has a running joke that she things her boss thinks she needs to be a cyborg or something that's a mixture of human and machine with a steady direct to CNS stimulant of coffe to and I quote "fill the unrealistic demands of a capitalistic ahole company so they can get at least 200% proffits...gota proffit or bust!" Good natured ribbing about her work and I think her looking for a new job aside their is some rather disturbing dark facts behind that. Rest aint rest if you don't wake up feeling recharged to 'eat big, think big, get big' (Arnold Schwartzaegor however that's spelled)- fact is that with mental health issues on a huge rise part of that is from sleep, or lack of, The data is their to back it. On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 4:01 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: Steve writes: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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It’s not lost on us, you know. Yup, it’s kill or be killed out there. Boy, sign me up for a basic income. I might actually do something creative. Frankly it doesn’t seem to likely. Cyborg seems much more likely.
From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Gillian Densmore <[hidden email]> Pardon my interuption again, if you need to ask if you or a group are recharged enough. The answer might be no. An aquaintence of mine has a running joke that she things her boss thinks she needs to be a cyborg or something that's a mixture
of human and machine with a steady direct to CNS stimulant of coffe to and I quote "fill the unrealistic demands of a capitalistic ahole company so they can get at least 200% proffits...gota proffit or bust!" Good natured ribbing about her work and I think
her looking for a new job aside their is some rather disturbing dark facts behind that. Rest aint rest if you don't wake up feeling recharged to 'eat big, think big, get big' (Arnold Schwartzaegor however that's spelled)- fact is that with mental health issues
on a huge rise part of that is from sleep, or lack of, The data is their to back it.
On Tue, Apr 9, 2019 at 4:01 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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The underlying thread seems to be the extent to which we are part of a fluid and the extent to which that fluid's phenomena are distinct from those phenomena generated by the individual parts, the humans. Individualist ⇔ socialist spectrum, the ontological status of groups (including whether your animals are mere slaves or full members of your group), cyborg or healthy organelle, etc.
It reminds me of the quote I think highlights the individualist's arrogance: "I don't know why we're here. But I'm pretty sure it's not to enjoy ourselves." (attributed to Wittgenstein) Why do we think we should ever "feel recharged", "be happy", "be healthy", etc? I look at the way my cats behave, compare their lives to that of the stray we fed (and who bled all over our patio every time he ate, who when we took him to the Feral Cat Society, killed him right off the bat because he had so many diseases) and I can't help but wonder *why* individuals are so entitled to think they deserve anything at all other than the opportunity to exist ... if even that. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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In the end, life is just a struggle for power. As soon as one starts to think in terms of entitled or not entitled (beyond rhetoric and tactics), it is just taking your eye off the ball. Whether it is for the best or not is in the end, subjective.
Btw, it's good you point out the concept of the "underlying thread". Same idea: There's the stated topic of a thread and then there are latent topics. Usually latent topics are more interesting anyway. An individual can be a class or an individual can be one of a billion instances of a latent class. Mostly we are all redundant, and encouraged to be so -- the latter -- good little consumers, churchgoers, and taxpayers. On 4/10/19, 7:46 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: The underlying thread seems to be the extent to which we are part of a fluid and the extent to which that fluid's phenomena are distinct from those phenomena generated by the individual parts, the humans. Individualist ⇔ socialist spectrum, the ontological status of groups (including whether your animals are mere slaves or full members of your group), cyborg or healthy organelle, etc. It reminds me of the quote I think highlights the individualist's arrogance: "I don't know why we're here. But I'm pretty sure it's not to enjoy ourselves." (attributed to Wittgenstein) Why do we think we should ever "feel recharged", "be happy", "be healthy", etc? I look at the way my cats behave, compare their lives to that of the stray we fed (and who bled all over our patio every time he ate, who when we took him to the Feral Cat Society, killed him right off the bat because he had so many diseases) and I can't help but wonder *why* individuals are so entitled to think they deserve anything at all other than the opportunity to exist ... if even that. ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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I'm not a big fan of "why" questions. I think "why" is just an excuse for not wanting to admit that we don't know "what" in sufficient detail. To misquote Yoda, "There is no Why. What, or what not.". On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 9:09 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote: On 4/10/19, 7:46 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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Gary wrote:
My framing of this is that "a well enough posed question has a self-evident answer". I *like* "why" questions but only insomuch as they are about subjective, human-value relevant topics. Even there, deeper inspection (e.g. meditation) seems to degenerate to "what" with "why" being variously an illusion or a highly subjective self-evident tautology (e.g. "because I want to").
============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Marcus G. Daniels
Marcus wrote, in response to Glen:
> In the end, life is just a struggle for power. I think this is technically accurate, but may carry a cynicism which ignores some subtleties along the way? It invokes the image attributed (I think) to Tennyson and perhaps exploited by Dawkins to provide contrast to support his Selfish Genery (Nick?). "Nature: Red in Tooth and Claw". Edwin Wilson might anthropomorphize "genes" in Dawkins style, with his statement “morality is an illusion fobbed off on us by our genes to get us to cooperate”, but it does seem to sum up one perspective on the illusions (or realities?) that seem to come along with cooperation (symbiosis) in nature? From my ALife days, "Life" is a lot of things at once, while being roughly as simple as systems which increase negentropy in the flux of free energy sources. Your "struggle for power" is perhaps a reflection of the competition for better exposure to said "flux". Coherence, Homeostasis, Reproduction, Competition for Resources... It seems like some here have been more deeply engaged in these topics than I... your colloquial use of "Power" would suggest a little higher level of emergent properties, implying networks of predator/prey, parasite/symbiote, even ecosystems? Erwin Schroedinger in his classic _What is Life?_ seemed to reduce it as well as any physicist could, yet still left open plenty of acknowledgement of higher level emergent properties (I think). I have recently been reading up on "plant guilds" and in particular "tree guilds" to improve how I encourage or cultivate the landscape around my house to become more productive and interesting for me and mine. Recognizing the subtle interactions between highly distinct species (from every kingdom of life) and how their resonances can be reinforcing is fascinating. Of course, the ideal of what is "pleasing and productive" is highly context-dependent. I don't know what kinds of ecosystems have evolved around "invasive species" such as tumbleweeds, russian olives, tamarisk, but it might only be their relatively *recent* invasion that has us considering them a problem... they haven't found an equilibrium with the other flora, fauna and hydrogeological phenomena (riparian in particular) and all WE recognize is the disruption of the old order, and lament the loss of the "convenient" qualities offered to us and ours by the old order. I am also 90% of the way through Richard Powers latest Novel _Overstory_ which uses the lives and loves of perhaps a dozen humans to expose the rich and ancient history of and contemporary experience of Trees. It is something of an epic opus among his many richly complex books and characters. He did a reading at the Lensic in February and reported that during the course of the research for this book he moved to the edge of the Smoky Mountain National Park to be near the old growth forest there while he finished up the novel. The human societal metaphor of a Guild centered around a Tree seems pale in import and complexity in the face of his description of the legacy of trees and forests. - Steve > As soon as one starts to think in terms of entitled or not entitled (beyond rhetoric and tactics), it is just taking your eye off the ball. Whether it is for the best or not is in the end, subjective. > > Btw, it's good you point out the concept of the "underlying thread". Same idea: There's the stated topic of a thread and then there are latent topics. Usually latent topics are more interesting anyway. An individual can be a class or an individual can be one of a billion instances of a latent class. Mostly we are all redundant, and encouraged to be so -- the latter -- good little consumers, churchgoers, and taxpayers. > > On 4/10/19, 7:46 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: > > The underlying thread seems to be the extent to which we are part of a fluid and the extent to which that fluid's phenomena are distinct from those phenomena generated by the individual parts, the humans. Individualist ⇔ socialist spectrum, the ontological status of groups (including whether your animals are mere slaves or full members of your group), cyborg or healthy organelle, etc. > > It reminds me of the quote I think highlights the individualist's arrogance: "I don't know why we're here. But I'm pretty sure it's not to enjoy ourselves." (attributed to Wittgenstein) > > Why do we think we should ever "feel recharged", "be happy", "be healthy", etc? I look at the way my cats behave, compare their lives to that of the stray we fed (and who bled all over our patio every time he ate, who when we took him to the Feral Cat Society, killed him right off the bat because he had so many diseases) and I can't help but wonder *why* individuals are so entitled to think they deserve anything at all other than the opportunity to exist ... if even that. > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove > ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4
In the sense that all causation is over-simplification, I can agree with you. But in the sense that function is distinct from material (ends distinct from means), I disagree. In particular, when we consider things like therapeutic compounds, many different compounds can achieve the same (or similar) ends, some much less toxic or much cheaper than others. So questions of function are necessary, even if insufficient.
It reminds me of the "tech bros" who look down their noses at DIY electronics, but *love* well-engineered gadgets like iPhones, or fetishize the Tesla over the Leaf, etc. Both the concepts of "satisficing" and the 80/20 rule are largely about function/why and material/what take an important back seat. On 4/10/19 7:28 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote: > I'm not a big fan of "why" questions. I think "why" is just an excuse for not wanting to admit that we don't know "what" in sufficient detail. To misquote Yoda, "There is no Why. What, or what not.". -- ☣ uǝlƃ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: Latent Topics was: enough sleep?
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In reply to this post by Steve Smith
Steve writes:
< From my ALife days, "Life" is a lot of things at once, while being roughly as simple as systems which increase negentropy in the flux of free energy sources. Your "struggle for power" is perhaps a reflection of the competition for better exposure to said "flux". > A social system that itself increases negentropy will in turn create instances that are self-similar. With sufficient productivity, there won't be a need for so many instances. It will suck up too much free energy. The social system will either collapse or it will need to purposefully cull itself. Somehow either many instances need to consume less energy per instance or collectively it is will be necessary to collectively increase productivity -- as in the whole is more than the sum of its parts cliché. The current political climate leads me to believe there is a great culling coming. Marcus ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove |
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