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consciousness conundrum

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Prof David West

consciousness conundrum

Few of you will have heard of a K-Hole. It is an experience reported by users of Special-K (ketamine) in high doses. The most common description of the experience is "ego death." Electroencephalographs record a "complete" cessation of brain activity for several minutes and it appears that the "ego death" occurs when the brain waves stop. The instruments also capture "unusual" brain wave patterns that correspond to the hallucinatory phase of the Ketamine experience.

Language presents a huge problem here, but — it seems as if an 'X-consciousness' is aware of the demise of 'ego-consciousness' when brain activity ceases. Stated differently: 'ego-consciousness' is a side-effect/consequence of brain activity; but 'X-consciousness' is not.

Scientists at Cambridge have replicated the "unusual" and the "cessation" brain wave phenomena in sheep, but sheep are notoriously tight-lipped when it comes to reporting internal experiences.

Special-K is not in my wheelhouse, so I will not be able to provide a personal case study.

davew

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jon zingale

Re: consciousness conundrum

This post was updated on .

One time while sitting at a plaza across from UT campus in Austin,
an early-20 something *road dog* decided to drop ketamine beside me.
He fell to the ground and proceeded to spit up mucus. His road-dogging
partner laughed a bunch before kicking him. In his way, Mr. K. will
challenge the world! And of course Henry The Horse dances the waltz!

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Stephen Guerin-5

Re: consciousness conundrum

Dave writes:
> Few of you will have heard of a K-Hole.

"Return to Dagobah for his next K-hole, Yoda must"

* "lego yoda addicted to ketamine" meme was pretty big 6 months ago. Ask a gaming / reddit / youtube generation teenager and they would say it's already a dead meme :-)
https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/yodas-ketamine-addiction

At the time it evolved very quickly online with mutations and mashups. I'd be curious what percentage of reddit/gamer teens/20-somethings have "ketamine addicted yoda" in their "collective consciousness". A google image search will give you a sense of it.

I only know from overhearing my teenage boys.

John writes:
> an early-20 something *road dog* decided to drop ketamine

I suspect if you said that to a meme-aware teenager, they would respond "That was no street dog, it was a *green frog* " :-)

-S

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020 at 5:34 PM Jon Zingale <[hidden email]> wrote:

One time while sitting at a plaza across from UT campus in Austin,
an early-20 something *road dog* decided to drop ketamine beside me.
He fell to the ground and proceeded to spit up mucus. His road-dogging
partner laughed a bunch before kicking him. In his way, Mr. K. will
challenge
the world! And of course Henry The Horse dances the waltz!

--
Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/

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Steve Smith

Re: consciousness conundrum

I grew up with rodeo cowboys (ab)using "horse tranks" on themselves as much as on their horses (shoeing/trailering/etc.) I never saw anyone "riding the k-pony" much less "in a k-hole" but that could easily have been masked by the pervasive alcohol (ab)use. I didn't know this was Ketamine until later. I heard the term "riding the k-pony" but not "k-hole"... probably a more modern term?

I did some work in the early 80's with an anesthesiologist who was full of anecdotes about how anesthesiology was still more an art than a science and his prime exhibit was a recently deprecated cocktail which A) induced paralysis; and B) yielded short-term amnesia. The way they figured this out apparently was that a variation *also* included low levels of Ketamine... not enough to be the primary anesthetic, but to induce modest dissociation "on the way in and out" to reduce anxiety? Those with the Ketamine-laced cocktail fared *much* better in recovery, as *apparently* the others were psychologically traumatized by the experience (imagine paralysis during surgery, even with amnesia), even though they didn't have any physical side effects.

My only personal experience with anesthesia was whilst having all 4 (impacted) wisdom teeth removed in my late teens. I can't say I was present for the whole procedure, but I definitely remembered a LOT of details that I didn't think I should have experienced. It was not traumatic, and I think it must have been the strongest experience I've had with dissociation. I can't say it was particularly compelling in it's own right, but I am glad I had the experience. By some extrapolation, I can imagine how such experiences could be in some way addictive. It seems unlikely (for several reasons) that the anesthetic was Ketamine (early 1970s), but significantly dissociative.

I have a stronger sense of Dave's "X-consciousness being aware of ego-consciousness and it's fading" in variations on lucid dreaming. Of course my brain activity is not flatlined (I assume) in that mode. I don't have out-of-body experiences but I do become an extreme "observer" of my own consciousness... I can't really parse that well... other experiences with dreaming include what I interpret as a "post-hoc" fabricated "memory". If something intrusive is happening in the world around my sleeping self, I am as likely as not to build an elaborate dream-story around the intrusion (sound, smell, cold, etc) which can feel like it lasts for *hours* when in fact, the intrusion may have been very short, sometimes all but instantaneous. The dream-story "builds up to" the event as if with foreknowledge. I interpret it as "post hoc fabrication". Others report it as "foreknowledge".

If I had a k-pony, I suppose I would now have to name it "yoda".

- Steve

thompnickson2

Re: consciousness conundrum

Glen has lumbered me down with an obligation to steelman every idea I find absurd, and so I feel obligated to try with this absurd idea of dual consciousness, a consciousness that acts, and a consciousness that decides to act. I have always felt that some day you guys would help me do this. So, ok, now?

So, let it be the case that we are a disorganized bunch of behavioral tendencies bundled up in a single body. Now, one selection principle which follows from this model is that is not captured most of the time by one of these tendancies is likely to be less fit than one that is. Dithering usually is selected against.

Now what is the structure of a brain that mediates between them. Well, it could just let them fight over control of the machinery. But such battles might be costly. Is there a better way.

Well, let’s introduce a module whose job it is to extract is from such conflicts. It has its own connections to crucial points in the competing systems. It samples these systems and heads off conflict by making its own assessment of which system is going to win. When assessment is made, attention is directed toward the parts of the world that lead to one of the two actions that the competing systems are advocating. And that redirection is experienced as , Deciding to do x.

I am sure you guys could easily write a computer that would both dither and have a separate dither-reduction system. Kinda like sudden death overtime.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 8:38 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] consciousness conundrum

If I had a k-pony, I suppose I would now have to name it "yoda".

- Steve

Prof David West

Re: consciousness conundrum

Hey Nick, you just re-conceived and articulated, very briefly, Minsky's Society of Mind.

davew

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 9:55 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Glen has lumbered me down with an obligation to steelman every idea I find absurd, and so I feel obligated to try with this absurd idea of dual consciousness, a consciousness that acts, and a consciousness that decides to act. I have always felt that some day you guys would help me do this. So, ok, now?

So, let it be the case that we are a disorganized bunch of behavioral tendencies bundled up in a single body. Now, one selection principle which follows from this model is that is not captured most of the time by one of these tendancies is likely to be less fit than one that is. Dithering usually is selected against.

Now what is the structure of a brain that mediates between them. Well, it could just let them fight over control of the machinery. But such battles might be costly. Is there a better way.

Well, let’s introduce a module whose job it is to extract is from such conflicts. It has its own connections to crucial points in the competing systems. It samples these systems and heads off conflict by making its own assessment of which system is going to win. When assessment is made, attention is directed toward the parts of the world that lead to one of the two actions that the competing systems are advocating. And that redirection is experienced as , Deciding to do x.

I am sure you guys could easily write a computer that would both dither and have a separate dither-reduction system. Kinda like sudden death overtime.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 8:38 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] consciousness conundrum

I grew up with rodeo cowboys (ab)using "horse tranks" on themselves as much as on their horses (shoeing/trailering/etc.) I never saw anyone "riding the k-pony" much less "in a k-hole" but that could easily have been masked by the pervasive alcohol (ab)use.   I didn't know this was Ketamine until later.   I heard the term "riding the k-pony" but not "k-hole"... probably a more modern term?
I did some work in the early 80's with an anesthesiologist who was full of anecdotes about how anesthesiology was still more an art than a science and his prime exhibit was a recently deprecated cocktail which A) induced paralysis; and B) yielded short-term amnesia.   The way they figured this out apparently was that a variation *also* included low levels of Ketamine... not enough to be the primary anesthetic, but to induce modest dissociation "on the way in and out" to reduce anxiety? Those with the Ketamine-laced cocktail fared *much* better in recovery, as *apparently* the others were psychologically traumatized by the experience (imagine paralysis during surgery, even with amnesia), even though they didn't have any physical side effects.
My only personal experience with anesthesia was whilst having all 4 (impacted) wisdom teeth removed in my late teens.   I can't say I was present for the whole procedure, but I definitely remembered a LOT of details that I didn't think I should have experienced. It was not traumatic, and I think it must have been the strongest experience I've had with dissociation.   I can't say it was particularly compelling in it's own right, but I am glad I had the experience.   By some extrapolation, I can imagine how such experiences could be in some way addictive. It seems unlikely (for several reasons) that the anesthetic was Ketamine (early 1970s), but significantly dissociative.
I have a stronger sense of Dave's "X-consciousness being aware of ego-consciousness and it's fading" in variations on lucid dreaming.   Of course my brain activity is not flatlined (I assume) in that mode. I don't have out-of-body experiences but I do become an extreme "observer" of my own consciousness... I can't really parse that well... other experiences with dreaming include what I interpret as a "post-hoc" fabricated "memory".   If something intrusive is happening in the world around my sleeping self, I am as likely as not to build an elaborate dream-story around the intrusion (sound, smell, cold, etc) which can feel like it lasts for *hours* when in fact, the intrusion may have been very short, sometimes all but instantaneous. The dream-story "builds up to" the event as if with foreknowledge.    I interpret it as "post hoc fabrication". Others report it as "foreknowledge".
If I had a k-pony, I suppose I would now have to name it "yoda".
- Steve

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Jochen Fromm-5

Re: consciousness conundrum

Yes, Minsky's book comes to mind. For instance chapter 10.4 "Papert's Principle".

If there are contradicting tendencies in the bundle of our favorite behavior patterns, then a normal person will probably select the one that causes the most pleasure and the least pain. Blaise Pascal and many other philosophers like Cicero argued that people act to maximize pleasure and minimize pain [1].

Mathematically this would be a kind of optimization problem which can be solved by number of approximation algorithms or minimax algorithms, depending how the cognitive process is modeled or implemented in detail.

In general emotions and the limbic system helps us to decide what is good and what is bad for. Good and bad experiences are remembered well, because they help us to select the right path in the future. Emotions make us feel good or bad, but they also prepare us to choose the right actions, because they increase our action readiness, depending on the situation [2].

If we represent different behavior tendencies by different agents, to use Minsky's metaphor from "The society of mind", then we can model the decision process as a court process. The behavior tendency of the agent who can list the most positive "good" memories wins. The behavior of the agent who can remember the most negative "bad" memories is suppressed. Something like that.

-J.

[1] Pascal: Reasoning and Belief
Michael Moriarty
Oxford University Press
2020

[2] The Emotions
Nico H. Frijda
Cambridge University Press
1986

-------- Original message --------

From: Prof David West <[hidden email]>

Date: 6/16/20 14:00 (GMT+01:00)

To: [hidden email]

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] consciousness conundrum

Hey Nick, you just re-conceived and articulated, very briefly, Minsky's Society of Mind.

davew

On Mon, Jun 15, 2020, at 9:55 PM, [hidden email] wrote:

Glen has lumbered me down with an obligation to steelman every idea I find absurd, and so I feel obligated to try with this absurd idea of dual consciousness, a consciousness that acts, and a consciousness that decides to act. I have always felt that some day you guys would help me do this. So, ok, now?

So, let it be the case that we are a disorganized bunch of behavioral tendencies bundled up in a single body. Now, one selection principle which follows from this model is that is not captured most of the time by one of these tendancies is likely to be less fit than one that is. Dithering usually is selected against.

Now what is the structure of a brain that mediates between them. Well, it could just let them fight over control of the machinery. But such battles might be costly. Is there a better way.

Well, let’s introduce a module whose job it is to extract is from such conflicts. It has its own connections to crucial points in the competing systems. It samples these systems and heads off conflict by making its own assessment of which system is going to win. When assessment is made, attention is directed toward the parts of the world that lead to one of the two actions that the competing systems are advocating. And that redirection is experienced as , Deciding to do x.

I am sure you guys could easily write a computer that would both dither and have a separate dither-reduction system. Kinda like sudden death overtime.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2020 8:38 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] consciousness conundrum

I grew up with rodeo cowboys (ab)using "horse tranks" on themselves as much as on their horses (shoeing/trailering/etc.) I never saw anyone "riding the k-pony" much less "in a k-hole" but that could easily have been masked by the pervasive alcohol (ab)use.   I didn't know this was Ketamine until later.   I heard the term "riding the k-pony" but not "k-hole"... probably a more modern term?
I did some work in the early 80's with an anesthesiologist who was full of anecdotes about how anesthesiology was still more an art than a science and his prime exhibit was a recently deprecated cocktail which A) induced paralysis; and B) yielded short-term amnesia.   The way they figured this out apparently was that a variation *also* included low levels of Ketamine... not enough to be the primary anesthetic, but to induce modest dissociation "on the way in and out" to reduce anxiety? Those with the Ketamine-laced cocktail fared *much* better in recovery, as *apparently* the others were psychologically traumatized by the experience (imagine paralysis during surgery, even with amnesia), even though they didn't have any physical side effects.
My only personal experience with anesthesia was whilst having all 4 (impacted) wisdom teeth removed in my late teens.   I can't say I was present for the whole procedure, but I definitely remembered a LOT of details that I didn't think I should have experienced. It was not traumatic, and I think it must have been the strongest experience I've had with dissociation.   I can't say it was particularly compelling in it's own right, but I am glad I had the experience.   By some extrapolation, I can imagine how such experiences could be in some way addictive. It seems unlikely (for several reasons) that the anesthetic was Ketamine (early 1970s), but significantly dissociative.
I have a stronger sense of Dave's "X-consciousness being aware of ego-consciousness and it's fading" in variations on lucid dreaming.   Of course my brain activity is not flatlined (I assume) in that mode. I don't have out-of-body experiences but I do become an extreme "observer" of my own consciousness... I can't really parse that well... other experiences with dreaming include what I interpret as a "post-hoc" fabricated "memory".   If something intrusive is happening in the world around my sleeping self, I am as likely as not to build an elaborate dream-story around the intrusion (sound, smell, cold, etc) which can feel like it lasts for *hours* when in fact, the intrusion may have been very short, sometimes all but instantaneous. The dream-story "builds up to" the event as if with foreknowledge.    I interpret it as "post hoc fabrication". Others report it as "foreknowledge".
If I had a k-pony, I suppose I would now have to name it "yoda".
- Steve

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
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