computer models of the mind
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All,
My last friam issue came to me in two parts, the second containing the last four items and no header. Was that Just Me or were others so afficted. As to computer metaphors, I believe profoundly in metaphors. In fact, for me it's metaphors all the way down. All the way up, too. And sideways, as well. But because I think metaphors are so important, I believe that one must be very careful when using them to make sure the analogues line up. Generally, when we talk about minds, we strip away all the peripherals. Minds do not, in our common talk, have arms, legs, mouths, eyes, etc., even though they are often said to "do inside" all the acts that demand these peripherals. When we talk about computers, however, we endow them with keys, printers, screens, etc. If minds are truly INSIDE, isnt the best computer metaphor for a mind a turing machine, plain and simple. (or do I misuse the term) ? Or at least an unadorned box with nothing connected to it, or nothing PARTICULAR connected to it. Nick Nicholas Thompson nickthompson at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > [Original Message] > From: <friam-request at redfish.com> > To: <friam at redfish.com> > Date: 7/19/2006 7:57:09 AM > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 26 > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > friam at redfish.com > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > friam-request at redfish.com > > You can reach the person managing the list at > friam-owner at redfish.com > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > Today's Topics: > > 1. Re: Beer Ratings, brewer, brewpub, bar, beer reviews and more > (Jochen Fromm) > 2. singularity (Carlos Gershenson) > 3. Re: Intentionality is the mark of the vital (Carlos Gershenson) > 4. Re: Intentionality is the mark of the vital (Phil Henshaw) > 5. Re: Beer Ratings, brewer, brewpub, bar, beer reviews and more > (Phil Henshaw) > 6. Re: singularity (Bill Eldridge) > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Message: 1 > Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:37:52 +0200 > From: "Jochen Fromm" <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Beer Ratings, brewer, brewpub, bar, beer reviews > and more > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > <friam at redfish.com> > Message-ID: <000601c6ab0e$9ff6c7c0$976fa8c0 at Toshiba> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > The rating is not correct. Although a cold > Guinness or Heineken is good as well, there > is no doubt that the best beer is made > here in Germany, most of them is not available > in the US. Germany is famous for its beer. > There are at least 1,300 breweries in Germany, > brewing over 5,000 varieties of beer. > > Some of the best brands available in > the whole country are Krombacher Pils > (excellent) and Warsteiner (refreshing). > There are also a lot of regional brands: > > In the North Flensburger Pils, Beck's and Jever > In the Middle Koenig Pilsener, Veltnis and Bitburger > In the South Erdinger Weissbier and Paulaner > > Mixed beers are popular, too, in Hamburg > "Alster" (with lemonade), in Berlin > "Berliner Weisse" (with syrup), and > many other alcopops popular especially > among young people |
computer models of the mind
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> Minds do not, in our common talk, have arms, legs, mouths, eyes, etc.,
Yes, but you cannot have a (human) mind without a body. In a similar way, you cannot have e.g. Linux running without a PC, and Linux doesn't have a CPU, HD, RAM, etc... This has lead people to either aim at real world robotics as the only way forward in AI, or at developing inside the computer complex bodies and environments... Best regards, Carlos Gershenson... Centrum Leo Apostel, Vrije Universiteit Brussel Krijgskundestraat 33. B-1160 Brussels, Belgium http://homepages.vub.ac.be/~cgershen/ ?To know your limits you need to go beyond them? |
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Not strictly true I think. Sure, Linux can't run without a PC but does that
mean it can't exist without one? Linux started its existence in Torvalds' head before it appeared on a CPU and if all CPUs vanished tomorrow it would still exist in his and other experts heads. Similarly, who says I can't have a mind without a body? Won't it carry on existing in the mind of the Intelligent Designer? Robert On 7/19/06, Carlos Gershenson <cgershen at vub.ac.be> wrote: > > > Minds do not, in our common talk, have arms, legs, mouths, eyes, etc., > > Yes, but you cannot have a (human) mind without a body. > > In a similar way, you cannot have e.g. Linux running without a PC, > and Linux doesn't have a CPU, HD, RAM, etc... > > This has lead people to either aim at real world robotics as the only > way forward in AI, or at developing inside the computer complex > bodies and environments... > > Best regards, > > Carlos Gershenson... > Centrum Leo Apostel, Vrije Universiteit Brussel > Krijgskundestraat 33. B-1160 Brussels, Belgium > http://homepages.vub.ac.be/~cgershen/ > > "To know your limits you need to go beyond them" > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060719/b0376f8d/attachment.html |
Brain vs Mind Neurons vs. Planned action
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Perhaps a starting point should be the "minds" of lower organisms such as the hydra where cells communicate with each other for some coordinated activity but without a central control. Although that sounds machine-like, they still must adapt, reproduce with preservation of their genetic code and therefore have the inherent tendancy as a species to evolve. Besides who can say they do not think and even have aspirations to become a fish one day.
Then consider replicating perhaps the nematode Caenorhabititis elegans that does have a simple nervous system with central control or brain. (Do they aspire to be earthworms?). Now that could raise the question what is the difference between a brain and having a mind. Central control over autonomic reflex vs. planned or fore-thought and action. Definitions of mind on the Web: a.. that which is responsible for one's thoughts and feelings; the seat of the faculty of reason; "his mind wandered"; "I couldn't get his words out of my head" b.. recall or remembrance; "it came to mind" c.. be offended or bothered by; take offense with, be bothered by; "I don't mind your behavior" d.. be concerned with or about something or somebody e.. judgment: an opinion formed by judging something; "he was reluctant to make his judgment known"; "she changed her mind" f.. thinker: an important intellectual; "the great minds of the 17th century" g.. take care: be in charge of or deal with; "She takes care of all the necessary arrangements" h.. attention; "don't pay him any mind" i.. heed: pay close attention to; give heed to; "Heed the advice of the old men" j.. your intention; what you intend to do; "he had in mind to see his old teacher"; "the idea of the game is to capture all the pieces" k.. beware: be on one's guard; be cautious or wary about; be alert to; "Beware of telephone salesmen" l.. knowledge and intellectual ability; "he reads to improve his mind"; "he has a keen intellect" m.. keep in mind wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn n.. The mind is the term most commonly used to describe the higher functions of the human brain, particularly those of which humans are subjectively conscious, such as personality, thought, reason, memory, intelligence and emotion. Although other species of animals share some of these mental capacities, the term is usually used only in relation to humans. It is also used in relation to postulated supernatural beings to which human-like qualities are ascribed, as in the expression "the mind of God." en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mind Lou ----- Original Message ----- From: Robert Holmes To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Cc: nickthompson at earthlink.net Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 8:53 AM Subject: Re: [FRIAM] computer models of the mind Not strictly true I think. Sure, Linux can't run without a PC but does that mean it can't exist without one? Linux started its existence in Torvalds' head before it appeared on a CPU and if all CPUs vanished tomorrow it would still exist in his and other experts heads. Similarly, who says I can't have a mind without a body? Won't it carry on existing in the mind of the Intelligent Designer? Robert On 7/19/06, Carlos Gershenson <cgershen at vub.ac.be> wrote: > Minds do not, in our common talk, have arms, legs, mouths, eyes, etc., Yes, but you cannot have a (human) mind without a body. In a similar way, you cannot have e.g. Linux running without a PC, and Linux doesn't have a CPU, HD, RAM, etc... This has lead people to either aim at real world robotics as the only way forward in AI, or at developing inside the computer complex bodies and environments... Best regards, Carlos Gershenson... Centrum Leo Apostel, Vrije Universiteit Brussel Krijgskundestraat 33. B-1160 Brussels, Belgium http://homepages.vub.ac.be/~cgershen/ "To know your limits you need to go beyond them" ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060719/79d30baf/attachment.html |
computer models of the mind
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In reply to this post by Robert Holmes
On 7/19/06, Robert Holmes <robert at holmesacosta.com> wrote:
> Not strictly true I think. Sure, Linux can't run without a PC but does that > mean it can't exist without one? Linux started its existence in Torvalds' > head before it appeared on a CPU and if all CPUs vanished tomorrow it would > still exist in his and other experts heads. > There's a funny sort of ontology here. Linus wrote Linux because he was inspired by Andrew Tanenbaum's Minix. Andrew Tanenbaum developed Minix on a PC using Coherent, a UNIX clone from the Mark Williams Company, because it provided the necessary tools. It also provided an existence proof, but he didn't really need that. Coherent was the brainchild of Bob Swartz, but it was originally developed on a DEC PDP-11 and ported to the Zilog Z8000 before the 8086 or the IBM PC existed. The Mark Williams Company itself was originally a subsidiary of Embosograph founded to market a 7-Up knockoff soft drink formula called Dr. Enuf. Coherent was written by a core of students from the University of Waterloo, working in Chicago under sometimes questionable immigration status. The work took place in a huge brick building at 1430 West Wrightwood which had the word Teletype engraved over the entrances. But the only profitable part of this family commercial empire was Embosograph itself and its profits derived from the manufacture of plastic beer signs, embossed graphics on plastic augmented by lights and waterfall illusions. So beer rating, or the rating of the fizzy alcoholic beverage which many americans call beer, is where Linux started. -- rec -- |
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In reply to this post by Robert Holmes
On 7/19/06, Robert Holmes <robert at holmesacosta.com> wrote:
> Not strictly true I think. Sure, Linux can't run without a PC but does that > mean it can't exist without one? Linux started its existence in Torvalds' > head before it appeared on a CPU and if all CPUs vanished tomorrow it would > still exist in his and other experts heads. > > Similarly, who says I can't have a mind without a body? Won't it carry on > existing in the mind of the Intelligent Designer? The problem here is the same problem virtually every discussion of consciousness has, which is that a certain degree of mysticism inevitably develops. The good side is that it happens so often because there's probably really something there of some kind; the bad side is that once you get on that tangent having a logical discussion becomes quite difficult, and avoiding religion becomes almost impossible. I think avoiding religion in discussion is a good principle just because it means you can avoid offending people. (This is the same reason I try not to mention Smalltalk.) -- Giles Bowkett http://www.gilesgoatboy.org |
computer models of the mind
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In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2
You're starting to have too much fun with this, Roger.
;-] On 7/19/06, Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org> wrote: > > On 7/19/06, Robert Holmes <robert at holmesacosta.com> wrote: > > Not strictly true I think. Sure, Linux can't run without a PC but does > that > > mean it can't exist without one? Linux started its existence in > Torvalds' > > head before it appeared on a CPU and if all CPUs vanished tomorrow it > would > > still exist in his and other experts heads. > > > > There's a funny sort of ontology here. > > Linus wrote Linux because he was inspired by Andrew Tanenbaum's Minix. > Andrew Tanenbaum developed Minix on a PC using Coherent, a UNIX clone > from the Mark Williams Company, because it provided the necessary > tools. It also provided an existence proof, but he didn't really need > that. Coherent was the brainchild of Bob Swartz, but it was > originally developed on a DEC PDP-11 and ported to the Zilog Z8000 > before the 8086 or the IBM PC existed. The Mark Williams Company > itself was originally a subsidiary of Embosograph founded to market a > 7-Up knockoff soft drink formula called Dr. Enuf. Coherent was > written by a core of students from the University of Waterloo, working > in Chicago under sometimes questionable immigration status. The work > took place in a huge brick building at 1430 West Wrightwood which had > the word Teletype engraved over the entrances. But the only > profitable part of this family commercial empire was Embosograph > itself and its profits derived from the manufacture of plastic beer > signs, embossed graphics on plastic augmented by lights and waterfall > illusions. > > So beer rating, or the rating of the fizzy alcoholic beverage which > many americans call beer, is where Linux started. > > -- rec -- > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > -- Doug Roberts, RTI International droberts at rti.org doug at parrot-farm.net 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060719/a9d578bf/attachment-0001.html |
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In reply to this post by Nick Thompson
Well, it depends on what you mean. I like metaphors too for lots of
reasons and agree whole heartedly that you need to check if the "analogues line up" as you say. I think if you consider computers and minds as metaphors the analogues very definitely line up well. If, on the other hand, you consider them as things, there are quite a number of problems. We haven't demonstrated that mental processes are digital yet, for just one example, or found any distinction in brain structures between software and data, for another. On most difficult issues we seem quite satisfied by not having any way to test them, using the "I can't imagine what else" explanation for ending with the same proposition we started with. An actual willingness to doubt is a rare and wonderful thing, of course, partly because it takes a certain perversity to smash your head into the strangely common disconnects scattered about, taking on both the risk of rudeness and rejection. There does seem to be some mental trick I can't explain to some of the things I've found, and lots of things I can't solve, but there is definitely a substantial cluster of disconnects in the common perception of nature hiding a world of hugely fun, and potentially profitable, stuff to explore. Take the general assumption that humanity and the earth will continue to successfully respond, ever more rapidly, to ever more complicated change, forever... Well, the virtual model does it just fine!! What could be the problem??? Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844 e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com explorations: www.synapse9.com > -----Original Message----- > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson > Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 10:35 AM > To: friam at redfish.com > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] computer models of the mind > > > All, > > My last friam issue came to me in two parts, the second > containing the last four items and no header. Was that Just > Me or were others so afficted. > > As to computer metaphors, I believe profoundly in metaphors. > In fact, for me it's metaphors all the way down. All the way > up, too. And sideways, as well. > > But because I think metaphors are so important, I believe > that one must be very careful when using them to make sure > the analogues line up. > Generally, when we talk about minds, we strip away all the > peripherals. > Minds do not, in our common talk, have arms, legs, mouths, > eyes, etc., even though they are often said to "do inside" > all the acts that demand these peripherals. When we talk > about computers, however, we endow them with keys, printers, > screens, etc. If minds are truly INSIDE, isnt the best > computer metaphor for a mind a turing machine, plain and > simple. (or do I misuse the term) ? Or at least an unadorned > box with nothing connected to it, or nothing PARTICULAR > connected to it. > > Nick > > Nicholas Thompson > nickthompson at earthlink.net http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson > > > > [Original Message] > > From: <friam-request at redfish.com> > > To: <friam at redfish.com> > > Date: 7/19/2006 7:57:09 AM > > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 37, Issue 26 > > > > Send Friam mailing list submissions to > > friam at redfish.com > > > > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit > > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to > > friam-request at redfish.com > > > > You can reach the person managing the list at > > friam-owner at redfish.com > > > > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific > > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..." > > > > > > Today's Topics: > > > > 1. Re: Beer Ratings, brewer, brewpub, bar, beer > reviews and more > > (Jochen Fromm) > > 2. singularity (Carlos Gershenson) > > 3. Re: Intentionality is the mark of the vital (Carlos > Gershenson) > > 4. Re: Intentionality is the mark of the vital (Phil Henshaw) > > 5. Re: Beer Ratings, brewer, brewpub, bar, beer > reviews and more > > (Phil Henshaw) > > 6. Re: singularity (Bill Eldridge) > > > > > > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > > Message: 1 > > Date: Wed, 19 Jul 2006 10:37:52 +0200 > > From: "Jochen Fromm" <fromm at vs.uni-kassel.de> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Beer Ratings, brewer, brewpub, bar, > beer reviews > > and more > > To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'" > > <friam at redfish.com> > > Message-ID: <000601c6ab0e$9ff6c7c0$976fa8c0 at Toshiba> > > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" > > > > > > The rating is not correct. Although a cold > > Guinness or Heineken is good as well, there > > is no doubt that the best beer is made > > here in Germany, most of them is not available > > in the US. Germany is famous for its beer. > > There are at least 1,300 breweries in Germany, > > brewing over 5,000 varieties of beer. > > > > Some of the best brands available in > > the whole country are Krombacher Pils > > (excellent) and Warsteiner (refreshing). > > There are also a lot of regional brands: > > > > In the North Flensburger Pils, Beck's and Jever > > In the Middle Koenig Pilsener, Veltnis and Bitburger > > In the South Erdinger Weissbier and Paulaner > > > > Mixed beers are popular, too, in Hamburg > > "Alster" (with lemonade), in Berlin > > "Berliner Weisse" (with syrup), and > > many other alcopops popular especially > > among young people > > > > ============================================================ > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org > > |
computer models of the mind
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There was actually a series of brain simulations done a few years ago.
While the original site is gone, it has been archived: *http://tinyurl.com/6heev* For example: * http://tinyurl.com/q5oa4 Best, Martin * |
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In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2
It was a beautiful response, though, both fascinating history and a
great example of the history dependence of the natural design process. Can you separate things from how they evolve by any means but loosing sight of them? Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.???? ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ 680 Ft. Washington Ave NY NY 10040 tel: 212-795-4844 e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com explorations: www.synapse9.com <http://www.synapse9.com/> -----Original Message----- From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Douglas Roberts Sent: Wednesday, July 19, 2006 1:21 PM To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group Subject: Re: [FRIAM] computer models of the mind You're starting to have too much fun with this, Roger. ;-] On 7/19/06, Roger Critchlow <rec at elf.org> wrote: On 7/19/06, Robert Holmes <robert at holmesacosta.com <mailto:robert at holmesacosta.com> > wrote: > Not strictly true I think. Sure, Linux can't run without a PC but does that > mean it can't exist without one? Linux started its existence in Torvalds' > head before it appeared on a CPU and if all CPUs vanished tomorrow it would > still exist in his and other experts heads. > There's a funny sort of ontology here. Linus wrote Linux because he was inspired by Andrew Tanenbaum's Minix. Andrew Tanenbaum developed Minix on a PC using Coherent, a UNIX clone from the Mark Williams Company, because it provided the necessary tools. It also provided an existence proof, but he didn't really need that. Coherent was the brainchild of Bob Swartz, but it was originally developed on a DEC PDP-11 and ported to the Zilog Z8000 before the 8086 or the IBM PC existed. The Mark Williams Company itself was originally a subsidiary of Embosograph founded to market a 7-Up knockoff soft drink formula called Dr. Enuf. Coherent was written by a core of students from the University of Waterloo, working in Chicago under sometimes questionable immigration status. The work took place in a huge brick building at 1430 West Wrightwood which had the word Teletype engraved over the entrances. But the only profitable part of this family commercial empire was Embosograph itself and its profits derived from the manufacture of plastic beer signs, embossed graphics on plastic augmented by lights and waterfall illusions. So beer rating, or the rating of the fizzy alcoholic beverage which many americans call beer, is where Linux started. -- rec -- ============================================================ FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org -- Doug Roberts, RTI International droberts at rti.org doug at parrot-farm.net 505-455-7333 - Office 505-670-8195 - Cell -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060719/bc87d0a3/attachment.html |
computer models of the mind
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In reply to this post by Robert Holmes
Dear Robert,
> Similarly, who says I can't have a mind without a body? Won't it > carry on existing in the mind of the Intelligent Designer? > You could say so, just as a Linux OS could be sitting in a CD... but it wouldn't function, so for practical purposes, it is as good as non- existant. Thus, a mind needs a body and an environment to be able to be perceived by an observer. Best regards, Carlos Gershenson... Centrum Leo Apostel, Vrije Universiteit Brussel Krijgskundestraat 33. B-1160 Brussels, Belgium http://homepages.vub.ac.be/~cgershen/ ?Tendencies tend to change...? -------------- next part -------------- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: /pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20060720/81fa9bea/attachment.html |
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