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coding versus music

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Prof David West

coding versus music

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west

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thompnickson2

Re: coding versus music

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life that we citizens need to know. I imagine coding to be like trying to write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want them to do. So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response. No boss ever says to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t understand you.”

Am I right about any of that?

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

dave west

David Eric Smith

Re: coding versus music

Nick, I think you should fine the perspective advanced here very congenial.

https://opendocs.github.io/sicp/sicp.pdf

I know the people who code for a living will sigh and say “how quaint, what the guy who doesn’t know anything about this work thinks is our literature”. Granted. My younger colleagues, whose work I have forwarded to this list, have never read it and many have never heard of it. Yet for (I think) well more than a decade, it was a core standard at MIT.

As an outsider who knows nothing, I find it a terrific introduction, and do not yet understand why anyone would recommend _against_ taking at least a little time to read within it.

Eric

On Jan 27, 2021, at 12:56 PM, <[hidden email]> <[hidden email]> wrote:

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life that we citizens need to know. I imagine coding to be like trying to write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want them to do. So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response. No boss ever says to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t understand you.”

Am I right about any of that?

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
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Prof David West

Re: coding versus music

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Nick,

I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ... Really good coders like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with me; but:

Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder ----> machine -----> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the embodiment of a mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to rearranging the symbols in a mathematical expression, such that, when resolved, the expression yields different results.

No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the experience of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what I want."

But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the reference from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored, paradigm in computer science called "literate programming" — the most prominent advocate, Donald Knuth.

If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge and meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or correct the program as needs be. If possible this would be a communication skill worth developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the world of the computer.

"If possible," is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue that this kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible because the medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too impoverished to communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's world, programming is joint theory building — a theory of "an affair in the world and how the program (addresses) it." Code and documentation represent maybe a tenth of that theory, the remainder being in the heads of those who developed it.

davew

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life that we citizens need to know. I imagine coding to be like trying to write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want them to do. So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response. No boss ever says to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t understand you.”

Am I right about any of that?

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
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FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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jon zingale

Re: coding versus music

In reply to this post by David Eric Smith

Yeah, that book is a classic and written in Lisp!

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Steve Smith

Re: coding versus music

In reply to this post by Prof David West

I am no longer an *effective* coder in the same sense Dave describes. But that doesn't mean I can't read and write code in a number of languages and idioms. But it does mean that nobody should pay me for that work except insomuch as it is incidental to what I'm *really* doing for their filthy lucre. It is very handy that I *can* read/write code across a wide spectrum of languages/idioms, but far from acutely useful... If I had to make a living doing it, I might be able to scrape enough rust off to be useful with it in a few restricted contexts, and probably paid out at roughly minimum wage, suggesting I would only take that kind of work in lieu of pumping gas (nobody outside of NJ/OR/NZ) actually pumps gas for a living anymore?! I could probably do better cutting firewood or as a handyman or shade-tree mechanic. And in the latter two cases, my main value would be triage/addressing of trivial problems followed by prescribing one kind of specialist or another for the actual skilled labor implied in many cases.

I think that learning coding skills is something valuable to add to one's toolbox, not unlike learning how to weld/solder/braze (minimally) or do rough carpentry or learn the basics of fasteners and sealers (glue, nails, screws, caulk, varnish, paint, oil, etc.)

The open question here is perhaps how well it helps one learn to communicate with humans (thus co-). I think it expands one's metaphorical domains to work with, but it is more universally useful to describe a linear set of logical instructions into something more familiar like a Recipe or some colloquialism like "rinse... repeat" or navigational instructions (how to get here from there) or assemble furniture (open the box, inspect the contents, consider the final configuration, skim the directions for unexpected dependencies, execute step 1, iterate through numbered steps to final, VIOLA bookcase!)

I find that *many* capable coders are NOT particularly capable communicators. Among other things, their empathy is often stunted, possibly by being too focused on *rigor* vs *clarity* in the sense of GEPR/NST's discussion upthread.

On the other hand, following Glen's conception of "self-programming" I think the Mr. Myagi/Karate Kid example is a good one. We learn a set of actions, independent of understanding final purpose, ultimately developing a set of universal skills which are equally good for waxing a car or brushing aside an opponent's strike. I don't know that Myagi nor the KK were coders by the definition here... but in a fairly strong sense, that was what was going on. Similarly, a lot of conventional rote learning is like that.... the way we learn our times-tables, or diagram sentences, study for an anatomy or biology exam.

My $.02 (inflation adjusted)

- Steve

On 1/27/21 11:45 AM, Prof David West wrote:

Nick,

I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ... Really good coders like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with me; but:

Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder ----> machine -----> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the embodiment of a mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to rearranging the symbols in a mathematical expression, such that, when resolved, the expression yields different results.

No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the experience of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what I want."

But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the reference from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored, paradigm in computer science called "literate programming" — the most prominent advocate, Donald Knuth.

If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge and meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or correct the program as needs be. If possible this would be a communication skill worth developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the world of the computer.

"If possible," is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue that this kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible because the medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too impoverished to communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's world, programming is joint theory building — a theory of "an affair in the world and how the program (addresses) it." Code and documentation represent maybe a tenth of that theory, the remainder being in the heads of those who developed it.

davew

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life that we citizens need to know. I imagine coding to be like trying to write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want them to do. So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response. No boss ever says to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t understand you.”

Am I right about any of that?

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

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Frank Wimberly-2

Re: coding versus music

I was largely paid for developing software during my career. This explains my impoverished publication record to some extent (50 refereed papers/presentations). In my last career position, I developed a large library of Java programs for implementing algorithms in the area of statistical causal reasoning (I should have said "SCR"). What I often did was to write an English description of the purpose of the method or class and include that in comments at the beginning. Then I would include the pseudocode or other description of each step of the algorithm also in comments. When Joe Ramsey took over this work I believe he said I had made it easy for him to understand my code. I know he said that my unit tests were excellent. That was because I used a well-documented and complex example to test the methods. I would then throw an exception if any important intervening variable was computed to have a value that was incorrect. FWIW.

Frank

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:16 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

I am no longer an *effective* coder in the same sense Dave describes.   But that doesn't mean I can't read and write code in a number of languages and idioms. But it does mean that nobody should pay me for that work except insomuch as it is incidental to what I'm *really* doing for their filthy lucre.   It is very handy that I *can* read/write code across a wide spectrum of languages/idioms, but far from acutely useful... If I had to make a living doing it, I might be able to scrape enough rust off to be useful with it in a few restricted contexts, and probably paid out at roughly minimum wage, suggesting I would only take that kind of work in lieu of pumping gas (nobody outside of NJ/OR/NZ) actually pumps gas for a living anymore?! I could probably do better cutting firewood or as a handyman or shade-tree mechanic. And in the latter two cases, my main value would be triage/addressing of trivial problems followed by prescribing one kind of specialist or another for the actual skilled labor implied in many cases.

I think that learning coding skills is something valuable to add to one's toolbox, not unlike learning how to weld/solder/braze (minimally) or do rough carpentry or learn the basics of fasteners and sealers (glue, nails, screws, caulk, varnish, paint, oil, etc.)

The open question here is perhaps how well it helps one learn to communicate with humans (thus co-).   I think it expands one's metaphorical domains to work with, but it is more universally useful to describe a linear set of logical instructions into something more familiar like a Recipe or some colloquialism like "rinse... repeat" or navigational instructions (how to get here from there) or assemble furniture (open the box, inspect the contents, consider the final configuration, skim the directions for unexpected dependencies, execute step 1, iterate through numbered steps to final, VIOLA bookcase!)

I find that *many* capable coders are NOT particularly capable communicators.   Among other things, their empathy is often stunted, possibly by being too focused on *rigor* vs *clarity* in the sense of GEPR/NST's discussion upthread.

On the other hand, following Glen's conception of "self-programming" I think the Mr. Myagi/Karate Kid example is a good one.   We learn a set of actions, independent of understanding final purpose, ultimately developing a set of universal skills which are equally good for waxing a car or brushing aside an opponent's strike.   I don't know that Myagi nor the KK were coders by the definition here...   but in a fairly strong sense, that was what was going on.   Similarly, a lot of conventional rote learning is like that.... the way we learn our times-tables, or diagram sentences, study for an anatomy or biology exam.

My $.02 (inflation adjusted)

- Steve

On 1/27/21 11:45 AM, Prof David West wrote:
Nick,

I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ... Really good coders like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with me; but:

Coding/programming is not communication — if restricted to coder ----> machine -----> machine action. The machine is nothing more than the embodiment of a mathematical abstraction and coding is analogous to rearranging the symbols in a mathematical expression, such that, when resolved, the expression yields different results.

No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the experience of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what I want."

But — a program has two audiences: the machine (no communication here) and other programmers (tons of miscommunication here). This is what the reference from Eric Smith talks about. There is an entire, usually ignored, paradigm in computer science called "literate programming" — the most prominent advocate, Donald Knuth.

If one were skilled at literate programming, one would be communicating to another programmer (or herself at a later point in time) all the knowledge and meaning necessary for the latter to understand, modify, enhance, or correct the program as needs be. If possible this would be a communication skill worth developing — might lead to more precise and accurate communication outside the world of the computer.

"If possible," is key. Many, starting with Peter Naur, would argue that this kind of programmer-to=programmer communication is impossible because the medium, the code plus any written documentation, is too impoverished to communicate what needs to be communicated. In Naur's world, programming is joint theory building — a theory of "an affair in the world and how the program (addresses) it." Code and documentation represent maybe a tenth of that theory, the remainder being in the heads of those who developed it.

davew

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life that we citizens need to know. I imagine coding to be like trying to write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want them to do. So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response. No boss ever says to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t understand you.”

Am I right about any of that?

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam [hidden email] On Behalf Of Prof David West

Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM

To: [hidden email]

Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west

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Frank Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz
Santa Fe, NM 87505
505 670-9918

Research: https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

thompnickson2

Re: coding versus music

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Thanks, Jon.

This is helpful. Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine to do what you want a kind of communication. Why privilege the inter-human kind.

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 12:46 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

Nick,

I am no longer a good programmer/coder, although once ... Really good coders like Glen, Marcus, Jon ... on the list, will probably disagree with me; but:

No boss says what you quoted, but few programmers have not had the experience of "the damn machine keeps doing what I told it, instead of what I want."

davew

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021, at 10:56 AM, [hidden email] wrote:

This flies in the face of my belief that you coders know something about life that we citizens need to know. I imagine coding to be like trying to write an instruction to a person such that that person always does what you want them to do. So, it is an act of communication in which the communicatee is always right, no matter how idiotic may be it’s response. No boss ever says to a coder, “Your code was brilliant but unfortunately the machine didn’t understand you.”

Am I right about any of that?

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Prof David West
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 11:41 AM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: [FRIAM] coding versus music

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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gepr

Re: coding versus music

Because you're free to define *anything* as a kind of communication if you're so inclined. But it's not helpful and smacks of sophistry, if not bad faith rhetoric. Sure, that garage door opener I built from a raspberry pi can be *thought* of as a kind of communication. But really?!? No. It's a garage door opener.

On 1/27/21 11:46 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> This is helpful. Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine to do what you want a kind of communication. Why privilege the inter-human kind.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

thompnickson2

Re: coding versus music

You missed the conditional. "Absent dualism..." what separates getting a machine to do something from getting a human to do something? If you answer is "dualism", then there's no need to talk further. We've been there, done that!
n

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

-----Original Message-----
From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of u?l? ???
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 2:02 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

Because you're free to define *anything* as a kind of communication if you're so inclined. But it's not helpful and smacks of sophistry, if not bad faith rhetoric. Sure, that garage door opener I built from a raspberry pi can be *thought* of as a kind of communication. But really?!? No. It's a garage door opener.

On 1/27/21 11:46 AM, [hidden email] wrote:
> This is helpful. Still, absent dualism, why isn’t getting a machine
> to do what you want a kind of communication. Why privilege the inter-human kind.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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jon zingale

Re: coding versus music

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

Whoa, Nick! That was Dave and not me.

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gepr

Re: coding versus music

In reply to this post by thompnickson2

No, I didn't miss the conditional. Both with and without monism, you can call anything "communication" if you want. The garage door opener can, given monism, and given stigmergy, be thought of as a communication from me to some far future civilization, for example... or as a way to tell GE how to build a better one, or whatever. But it's not. Sometimes a garage door opener is just a garage door opener. It's completely useless to expand every artifact out into a kind of communication.

So, sometimes a programmed computer is communication and sometimes it's not. Talk concretely about what you want to talk about and the conversation will be more productive.

On 1/27/21 12:05 PM, [hidden email] wrote:
> You missed the conditional. "Absent dualism..." what separates getting a machine to do something from getting a human to do something? If you answer is "dualism", then there's no need to talk further. We've been there, done that!

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Edward Angel

Re: coding versus music

In reply to this post by Prof David West

Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: coding versus music

Or computational thinking that has a machine-readable form to facilitate cognitive offload of certain mechanical aspects.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Edward Angel
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 1:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west

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Roger Critchlow-2

Re: coding versus music

So I've been deep in a FORTRAN program for decoding an amateur radio mode called FT8. I was going to recommend this to the supercomputing challenge student that Stephen is advising, because it's used for multi-senders/multi-listeners on a single audio channel, but I'm glad/sad I looked into it first because it's a mess. The astrophysicist and Nobelist Joe Taylor at Princeton has been working on various low power low baud communication amateur radio protocols for decades now and they're all in this source tar ball, the protocols, the encoders, the decoders, the programs, the libraries, all the false starts, and every simulator anyone ever thought of making. And then there's the Qt user interface that someone else layered on to the package.

So I'm picking my way through this wasteland of living, dead, and zombie code to follow the thread of one program that's embedded in it. My FORTRAN is very rusty, and they've redefined the language a bit since the 1970's. But I'm getting the gist of it as I muck along. Programming is communication of intent to make a computation, often thwarted. Thwarted by the programmer's communication skills, technical skills, the tools available, the programming language, the skills of the previous programmer on the project, the legacy cruft that might have to be preserved, and all the usual woes of all other modes of communication. I have some notes in front of me which demonstrated that I didn't divide 58 by 2 correctly on the first try and spent a half an hour figuring out that was the problem. Minor set back compared to my efforts to imagine belief propagation. Who would guess that belief propagation is how communication protocols get decoded?

-- rec --

Marcus G. Daniels

Re: coding versus music

Fortran after 2008 is not bad. It’s all the old Fortran programmers who are a danger to themselves and others.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, January 27, 2021 6:36 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] coding versus music

-- rec --

George Duncan-2

Re: coding versus music

In reply to this post by Edward Angel

I certainly agree with Ed. Coding does indeed suggest the final stage for a particular language--should that colon instead be on a semi-colon. I would, though, argue for "algorithmic thinking" rather than "computational thinking".

George Duncan

Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com

See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895

Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."

From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.

"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:53 PM Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:

Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

Ed

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
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Tom Johnson

Re: coding versus music

And I would gently suggest (not argue) that before ""algorithmic thinking" we should teach systems thinking/analysis: what will be the system in question and its defined boundaries, what the variables/agents within the system, the input/output relationships between those variables under what context/conditions, how do we measure change in the system and is the system capable of "learning," i.e. adapting to internal and external changes in its environment.

With these steps we can start to discuss algorithms. So there! Harump!

============================================
Tom Johnson - tom@...
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

============================================

On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 3:00 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:

I certainly agree with Ed. Coding does indeed suggest the final stage for a particular language--should that colon instead be on a semi-colon. I would, though, argue for "algorithmic thinking" rather than "computational thinking".

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:53 PM Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

Ed

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
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Edward Angel

Re: coding versus music

The term “computational thinking” incorporates all the points you brought up.

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon

Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]

505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Jan 29, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

And I would gently suggest (not argue) that before ""algorithmic thinking" we should teach systems thinking/analysis: what will be the system in question and its defined boundaries, what the variables/agents within the system, the input/output relationships between those variables under what context/conditions, how do we measure change in the system and is the system capable of "learning," i.e. adapting to internal and external changes in its environment.

With these steps we can start to discuss algorithms. So there! Harump!
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - tom@...
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 3:00 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I certainly agree with Ed. Coding does indeed suggest the final stage for a particular language--should that colon instead be on a semi-colon. I would, though, argue for "algorithmic thinking" rather than "computational thinking".

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:53 PM Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

Ed

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
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Tom Johnson

Re: coding versus music

Duly noted.

On Fri, Jan 29, 2021, 5:22 PM Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:

The term “computational thinking” incorporates all the points you brought up.

Ed

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Jan 29, 2021, at 3:49 PM, Tom Johnson <[hidden email]> wrote:

And I would gently suggest (not argue) that before ""algorithmic thinking" we should teach systems thinking/analysis: what will be the system in question and its defined boundaries, what the variables/agents within the system, the input/output relationships between those variables under what context/conditions, how do we measure change in the system and is the system capable of "learning," i.e. adapting to internal and external changes in its environment.

With these steps we can start to discuss algorithms. So there! Harump!
TJ

============================================
Tom Johnson - tom@...
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

On Fri, Jan 29, 2021 at 3:00 PM George Duncan <[hidden email]> wrote:
I certainly agree with Ed. Coding does indeed suggest the final stage for a particular language--should that colon instead be on a semi-colon. I would, though, argue for "algorithmic thinking" rather than "computational thinking".

George Duncan
Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
georgeduncanart.com
See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram

Land: (505) 983-6895
Mobile: (505) 469-4671

My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and luminous chaos.

"Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may then be a valuable delusion."
From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
"It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest power." Joanna Macy.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 2:53 PM Edward Angel <[hidden email]> wrote:
Going back to Dave’s original post, to me a big part of the issue is what is meant by “coding.” Unfortunately for manys in CS education, coding has come to refer only to the very last step in a complex process; namely, converting a final detailed set of instructions into computer code for a particular computer language. This is especially true of what as happened in the schools with programs that claim to teach coding and STEM. It’s why many of us prefer to use the term “computational thinking” when dealing with CS education.

If coding is just the final step (which could be replaced by a machine, if not now but soon) then it would be orthogonal to all these other skills.

Ed

_______________________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Jan 27, 2021, at 10:41 AM, Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

For a while now there has been a huge push to teach kids how to code. Ostensibly because it enhances skills like language, logic, and math; plus, "computer literacy" is essential in a world filled with computers.

A study at MIT suggests that coding skill is orthogonal to reading skill and has little, if any, influence on development of logic/math skills.

An article in the Journal of Neuroscience argues that if you want to increase the "skills and brainpower" of kids you should teach them music.

I came across this information peripherally and have not read the specific research reported on. I want the reports to be accurate representation of the research because it confirms long held biases against the value of "computational thinking" and computer science as a fundamental knowledge domain.

dave west
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