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civil war(s)

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Prof David West

civil war(s)

This is not a polemic nor a rant, just an observation.

Lot's of headlines about rupture and conflict in Republican party: Trumpists versus everone else. But almost a many stories, not headlined, about similar in Democratic party, e.g. 'entire staff of Nevada's Democratic party resigned because Sanders/AOC aligned slate won elective positions like Chairperson."

These might be more grounded instances of "civil war" (metaphor) than the one supposedly exemplified by the storming of the Capitol.

davew

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Tom Johnson

Re: civil war(s)

One might ask, how many people are the "entire staff"?

============================================
Tom Johnson - tom@...
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data

============================================

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:29 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

This is not a polemic nor a rant, just an observation.

Lot's of headlines about rupture and conflict in Republican party: Trumpists versus everone else. But almost a many stories, not headlined, about similar in Democratic party, e.g. 'entire staff of Nevada's Democratic party resigned because Sanders/AOC aligned slate won elective positions like Chairperson."

These might be more grounded instances of "civil war" (metaphor) than the one supposedly exemplified by the storming of the Capitol.

davew

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gepr

Re: civil war(s)

And, before we label those who do resign as having done so in some sort of triggered state, it's useful to fuzzify or smear "commitment" to some role. E.g.

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/mar/09/ofcom-investigating-gmb-piers-morgan-comments-harry-meghan-sussexes

Did they storm off in a huff because their commitment to that cause was really pretty thin to begin with? Or was this a significant thing for them to do? Resigning your position on the Titanic wouldn't be that difficult a decision to make.

So, calling such disagreements "civil war" seems hyperbolic, a simple symptom of artificial partisanship. I think of the noise in the Rs and Ds as minor shifts along the steady churn. Anyone who takes themselves, or their own biases, that seriously needs to take a beat and think a little harder.

On 3/9/21 11:36 AM, Tom Johnson wrote:
> One might ask, how many people are the "entire staff"?
>
> On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:29 PM Prof David West <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> This is not a polemic nor a rant, just an observation.
>
> Lot's of headlines about rupture and conflict in Republican party: Trumpists versus everone else. But almost a many stories, not headlined, about similar in Democratic party, e.g. 'entire staff of Nevada's Democratic party resigned because Sanders/AOC aligned slate won elective positions like Chairperson."
>
> These might be more grounded instances of "civil war" (metaphor) than the one supposedly exemplified by the storming of the Capitol.

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Prof David West

Re: civil war(s)

In reply to this post by Tom Johnson

My understanding is that is was about ten people - all of the non-elected personal of the state party office. The elected slate for the party was about 8 people. These numbers came from a friend in Las Vegas who was reading an article in the LV newspaper.

davew

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021, at 12:36 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:

One might ask, how many people are the "entire staff"?

============================================
Tom Johnson - tom@...
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:29 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is not a polemic nor a rant, just an observation.

Lot's of headlines about rupture and conflict in Republican party: Trumpists versus everone else. But almost a many stories, not headlined, about similar in Democratic party, e.g. 'entire staff of Nevada's Democratic party resigned because Sanders/AOC aligned slate won elective positions like Chairperson."

These might be more grounded instances of "civil war" (metaphor) than the one supposedly exemplified by the storming of the Capitol.

davew

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Tom Johnson

Re: civil war(s)

thanks.

============================================

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 1:17 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

My understanding is that is was about ten people - all of the non-elected personal of the state party office. The elected slate for the party was about 8 people. These numbers came from a friend in Las Vegas who was reading an article in the LV newspaper.

davew

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021, at 12:36 PM, Tom Johnson wrote:
One might ask, how many people are the "entire staff"?

============================================
Tom Johnson - tom@...
Institute for Analytic Journalism   --     Santa Fe, NM USA
505.577.6482(c)               505.473.9646(h)
NM Foundation for Open Government
Check out It's The People's Data
============================================

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:29 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
This is not a polemic nor a rant, just an observation.

Lot's of headlines about rupture and conflict in Republican party: Trumpists versus everone else. But almost a many stories, not headlined, about similar in Democratic party, e.g. 'entire staff of Nevada's Democratic party resigned because Sanders/AOC aligned slate won elective positions like Chairperson."

These might be more grounded instances of "civil war" (metaphor) than the one supposedly exemplified by the storming of the Capitol.

davew

- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam
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Prof David West

Re: civil war(s)

In reply to this post by gepr

schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021, at 12:54 PM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:

> And, before we label those who do resign as having done so in some sort
> of triggered state, it's useful to fuzzify or smear "commitment" to
> some role. E.g.
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/media/2021/mar/09/ofcom-investigating-gmb-piers-morgan-comments-harry-meghan-sussexes
>
> Did they storm off in a huff because their commitment to that cause was
> really pretty thin to begin with? Or was this a significant thing for
> them to do? Resigning your position on the Titanic wouldn't be that
> difficult a decision to make.
>
> So, calling such disagreements "civil war" seems hyperbolic, a simple
> symptom of artificial partisanship. I think of the noise in the Rs and
> Ds as minor shifts along the steady churn. Anyone who takes themselves,
> or their own biases, that seriously needs to take a beat and think a
> little harder.
>
> On 3/9/21 11:36 AM, Tom Johnson wrote:
> > One might ask, how many people are the "entire staff"?
> >
> > On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 12:29 PM Prof David West <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
> >
> > This is not a polemic nor a rant, just an observation.
> >
> > Lot's of headlines about rupture and conflict in Republican party: Trumpists versus everone else. But almost a many stories, not headlined, about similar in Democratic party, e.g. 'entire staff of Nevada's Democratic party resigned because Sanders/AOC aligned slate won elective positions like Chairperson."
> >
> > These might be more grounded instances of "civil war" (metaphor) than the one supposedly exemplified by the storming of the Capitol.
>
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
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> archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>

Roger Critchlow-2

Re: civil war(s)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:34 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

Second that, it's why they call it spin, cause it makes your head spin if you pay too much attention.

-- rec --

thompnickson2

Re: civil war(s)

I always thought the metaphor was to a web of deceit.

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:34 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

Second that, it's why they call it spin, cause it makes your head spin if you pay too much attention.

-- rec --

Roger Critchlow-2

Re: civil war(s)

That's because you think politics is essentially deceitful?

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 1:59 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I always thought the metaphor was to a web of deceit.
n

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:34 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

Second that, it's why they call it spin, cause it makes your head spin if you pay too much attention.

-- rec --
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thompnickson2

Re: civil war(s)

No. Because I think of spinning as a kind of ideological entrapment.

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 1:02 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

That's because you think politics is essentially deceitful?

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 1:59 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I always thought the metaphor was to a web of deceit.
n

Nick Thompson
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:34 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:
schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

Second that, it's why they call it spin, cause it makes your head spin if you pay too much attention.

-- rec --
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Steve Smith

Re: civil war(s)

In reply to this post by Roger Critchlow-2

Not speaking for Nick, *I* think politics (vs statesmanship) are at the very *least* _rhetorical_. I believe rhetoric often includes direct deceit. A great deal of politics in the US today (maybe forever) is acutely deceitful, even when it isn't attack-oriented. One party is significantly more bold than the other in that regard. DaveW may invert the sense of that judgement, but probably agrees that deceptive rhetoric is a mainstay in politics.

I think the "Civil War" metaphor isn't just deceitful, it is intentionally provocative and deeply disingenuous. My personal opinion is that the angry Right Mob and the Puppeteers yanking their strings wants a *literal* Civil War so that they can exercise their superior firepower and brutality to obtain/retain singular minority rule over a growing majority coalition of minorities. I think the rhetoric of the last year from that quarter trying to imply that the LEFT was on the verge of starting a hot Civil War if they "didn't get their way" was more projection, and intended to create a certain amount of cover and/or precedent for the type of coup attempt we saw on December 37th and the acute threats of violence from the right that has been bubbling for a very long time.

Perhaps "Cold Civil War" is more apt and less suggestive of endorsing/tolerating violence as a means.

Even the most violent of BLM and related protests did not aspire to overthrow government or reverse an election. While their attempts to hold law enforcement accountable in response to specific recent incidents (it is not a small list) and systemic abuses might have risen above a threshold of violence that many of us might approve, the movement was NOT about disenfranchising anyone except the very public servants who are supposed to work for us ("Protect and Serve").

All that said, I'm not unsympathetic with the resentments "the common man" has against their elected Representatives in our Republic, but any rhetoric that suggests that the Left is worse than the Right is acutely disingenuous.

Regarding the term "spin"... I *do* think it is apt in the sense of "making your head spin" but I think the metaphor of "churn" is yet more apt in the sense that a great deal of the point seems to be to generate lots of obfuscation by conflation. Muddying the waters...

- Steve

That's because you think politics is essentially deceitful?

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 1:59 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I always thought the metaphor was to a web of deceit.

n

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:34 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

Second that, it's why they call it spin, cause it makes your head spin if you pay too much attention.

-- rec --

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Roger Critchlow-2

Re: civil war(s)

Or chumming, as in throwing bloody fish in the water to attract sharks.

I read BLM protests on first scan as a reference to the Bundy stand-off, per Wikipedia:

The 2014 Bundy standoff was an armed confrontation between supporters of cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and law enforcement following a 21-year legal dispute in which the United States Bureau of Land Management (BLM) obtained court orders directing Bundy to pay over $1 million in withheld grazing fees for Bundy's use of federally owned land adjacent to Bundy's ranch in southeastern Nevada.

Just another note on the hazards of acronyms. Especially with erratic memories involved.

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not speaking for Nick, *I* think politics (vs statesmanship) are at the very *least* _rhetorical_.   I believe rhetoric often includes direct deceit. A great deal of politics in the US today (maybe forever) is acutely deceitful, even when it isn't attack-oriented. One party is significantly more bold than the other in that regard. DaveW may invert the sense of that judgement, but probably agrees that deceptive rhetoric is a mainstay in politics.

I think the "Civil War" metaphor isn't just deceitful, it is intentionally provocative and deeply disingenuous. My personal opinion is that the angry Right Mob and the Puppeteers yanking their strings wants a *literal* Civil War so that they can exercise their superior firepower and brutality to obtain/retain singular minority rule over a growing majority coalition of minorities.   I think the rhetoric of the last year from that quarter trying to imply that the LEFT was on the verge of starting a hot Civil War if they "didn't get their way" was more projection, and intended to create a certain amount of cover and/or precedent for the type of coup attempt we saw on December 37th and the acute threats of violence from the right that has been bubbling for a very long time.

Perhaps "Cold Civil War" is more apt and less suggestive of endorsing/tolerating violence as a means.

Even the most violent of BLM and related protests did not aspire to overthrow government or reverse an election.   While their attempts to hold law enforcement accountable in response to specific recent incidents (it is not a small list) and systemic abuses might have risen above a threshold of violence that many of us might approve, the movement was NOT about disenfranchising anyone except the very public servants who are supposed to work for us ("Protect and Serve").

All that said, I'm not unsympathetic with the resentments "the common man" has against their elected Representatives in our Republic, but any rhetoric that suggests that the Left is worse than the Right is acutely disingenuous.

Regarding the term "spin"... I *do* think it is apt in the sense of "making your head spin" but I think the metaphor of "churn" is yet more apt in the sense that a great deal of the point seems to be to generate lots of obfuscation by conflation.   Muddying the waters...

- Steve
That's because you think politics is essentially deceitful?

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 1:59 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I always thought the metaphor was to a web of deceit.

n

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:34 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

Second that, it's why they call it spin, cause it makes your head spin if you pay too much attention.

-- rec --

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Steve Smith

Re: civil war(s)

I live on Bundy Lane (100 meters long, with three other households) off of NM 502 and when I give directions to the house I describe it as "Bundy Lane as in Al or Ted" but have had to add "or Ammon and Cliven" to be more current. In another decade I hope none of those references mean anything.

Yes, there is an element of "chumming" among all the "spinning" and "churning". I also liked Glen's usage of "spinning" with "Wing Nuts" a while back... if Doug were still with us, he'd probably throw in some off-color reference to "Spinners" as well. The boon/bane of metaphor I suppose.

On 3/10/21 4:41 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:

Or chumming, as in throwing bloody fish in the water to attract sharks.

I read BLM protests on first scan as a reference to the Bundy stand-off, per Wikipedia:

The 2014 Bundy standoff was an armed confrontation between supporters of cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and law enforcement following a 21-year legal dispute in which the United States Bureau of Land Management (BLM) obtained court orders directing Bundy to pay over $1 million in withheld grazing fees for Bundy's use of federally owned land adjacent to Bundy's ranch in southeastern Nevada.

Just another note on the hazards of acronyms. Especially with erratic memories involved.

-- rec --
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not speaking for Nick, *I* think politics (vs statesmanship) are at the very *least* _rhetorical_.   I believe rhetoric often includes direct deceit. A great deal of politics in the US today (maybe forever) is acutely deceitful, even when it isn't attack-oriented. One party is significantly more bold than the other in that regard. DaveW may invert the sense of that judgement, but probably agrees that deceptive rhetoric is a mainstay in politics.

I think the "Civil War" metaphor isn't just deceitful, it is intentionally provocative and deeply disingenuous. My personal opinion is that the angry Right Mob and the Puppeteers yanking their strings wants a *literal* Civil War so that they can exercise their superior firepower and brutality to obtain/retain singular minority rule over a growing majority coalition of minorities.   I think the rhetoric of the last year from that quarter trying to imply that the LEFT was on the verge of starting a hot Civil War if they "didn't get their way" was more projection, and intended to create a certain amount of cover and/or precedent for the type of coup attempt we saw on December 37th and the acute threats of violence from the right that has been bubbling for a very long time.

Perhaps "Cold Civil War" is more apt and less suggestive of endorsing/tolerating violence as a means.

Even the most violent of BLM and related protests did not aspire to overthrow government or reverse an election.   While their attempts to hold law enforcement accountable in response to specific recent incidents (it is not a small list) and systemic abuses might have risen above a threshold of violence that many of us might approve, the movement was NOT about disenfranchising anyone except the very public servants who are supposed to work for us ("Protect and Serve").

All that said, I'm not unsympathetic with the resentments "the common man" has against their elected Representatives in our Republic, but any rhetoric that suggests that the Left is worse than the Right is acutely disingenuous.

Regarding the term "spin"... I *do* think it is apt in the sense of "making your head spin" but I think the metaphor of "churn" is yet more apt in the sense that a great deal of the point seems to be to generate lots of obfuscation by conflation.   Muddying the waters...

- Steve
That's because you think politics is essentially deceitful?

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 1:59 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I always thought the metaphor was to a web of deceit.

n

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:34 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

Second that, it's why they call it spin, cause it makes your head spin if you pay too much attention.

-- rec --

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Marcus G. Daniels

Re: civil war(s)

Ok, I admit it. Some part of my reptile brain is confused when I see BLM signs, because it hashes to the other thing.. for developmental reasons, I guess.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 4:18 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

On 3/10/21 4:41 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:

Or chumming, as in throwing bloody fish in the water to attract sharks.

I read BLM protests on first scan as a reference to the Bundy stand-off, per Wikipedia:

The 2014 Bundy standoff was an armed confrontation between supporters of cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and law enforcement following a 21-year legal dispute in which the United States Bureau of Land Management (BLM) obtained court orders directing Bundy to pay over $1 million in withheld grazing fees for Bundy's use of federally owned land adjacent to Bundy's ranch in southeastern Nevada.

Just another note on the hazards of acronyms. Especially with erratic memories involved.

-- rec --
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not speaking for Nick, *I* think politics (vs statesmanship) are at the very *least* _rhetorical_.   I believe rhetoric often includes direct deceit. A great deal of politics in the US today (maybe forever) is acutely deceitful, even when it isn't attack-oriented. One party is significantly more bold than the other in that regard. DaveW may invert the sense of that judgement, but probably agrees that deceptive rhetoric is a mainstay in politics.

I think the "Civil War" metaphor isn't just deceitful, it is intentionally provocative and deeply disingenuous. My personal opinion is that the angry Right Mob and the Puppeteers yanking their strings wants a *literal* Civil War so that they can exercise their superior firepower and brutality to obtain/retain singular minority rule over a growing majority coalition of minorities.   I think the rhetoric of the last year from that quarter trying to imply that the LEFT was on the verge of starting a hot Civil War if they "didn't get their way" was more projection, and intended to create a certain amount of cover and/or precedent for the type of coup attempt we saw on December 37th and the acute threats of violence from the right that has been bubbling for a very long time.

Perhaps "Cold Civil War" is more apt and less suggestive of endorsing/tolerating violence as a means.

Even the most violent of BLM and related protests did not aspire to overthrow government or reverse an election.   While their attempts to hold law enforcement accountable in response to specific recent incidents (it is not a small list) and systemic abuses might have risen above a threshold of violence that many of us might approve, the movement was NOT about disenfranchising anyone except the very public servants who are supposed to work for us ("Protect and Serve").

All that said, I'm not unsympathetic with the resentments "the common man" has against their elected Representatives in our Republic, but any rhetoric that suggests that the Left is worse than the Right is acutely disingenuous.

Regarding the term "spin"... I *do* think it is apt in the sense of "making your head spin" but I think the metaphor of "churn" is yet more apt in the sense that a great deal of the point seems to be to generate lots of obfuscation by conflation.   Muddying the waters...

- Steve
That's because you think politics is essentially deceitful?

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 1:59 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I always thought the metaphor was to a web of deceit.

n

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:34 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

Second that, it's why they call it spin, cause it makes your head spin if you pay too much attention.

-- rec --

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Roger Critchlow-2

Re: civil war(s)

Yeah, Oregon will do that to you.

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 7:56 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Ok, I admit it. Some part of my reptile brain is confused when I see BLM signs, because it hashes to the other thing.. for developmental reasons, I guess.

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Steve Smith
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 4:18 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

I live on Bundy Lane (100 meters long, with three other households) off of NM 502 and when I give directions to the house I describe it as "Bundy Lane as in Al or Ted" but have had to add "or Ammon and Cliven" to be more current. In another decade I hope none of those references mean anything.

Yes, there is an element of "chumming" among all the "spinning" and "churning". I also liked Glen's usage of "spinning" with "Wing Nuts" a while back... if Doug were still with us, he'd probably throw in some off-color reference to "Spinners" as well. The boon/bane of metaphor I suppose.

On 3/10/21 4:41 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
Or chumming, as in throwing bloody fish in the water to attract sharks.

I read BLM protests on first scan as a reference to the Bundy stand-off, per Wikipedia:

The 2014 Bundy standoff was an armed confrontation between supporters of cattle rancher Cliven Bundy and law enforcement following a 21-year legal dispute in which the United States Bureau of Land Management (BLM) obtained court orders directing Bundy to pay over $1 million in withheld grazing fees for Bundy's use of federally owned land adjacent to Bundy's ranch in southeastern Nevada.

Just another note on the hazards of acronyms. Especially with erratic memories involved.

-- rec --
On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 3:28 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
Not speaking for Nick, *I* think politics (vs statesmanship) are at the very *least* _rhetorical_.   I believe rhetoric often includes direct deceit. A great deal of politics in the US today (maybe forever) is acutely deceitful, even when it isn't attack-oriented. One party is significantly more bold than the other in that regard. DaveW may invert the sense of that judgement, but probably agrees that deceptive rhetoric is a mainstay in politics.

I think the "Civil War" metaphor isn't just deceitful, it is intentionally provocative and deeply disingenuous. My personal opinion is that the angry Right Mob and the Puppeteers yanking their strings wants a *literal* Civil War so that they can exercise their superior firepower and brutality to obtain/retain singular minority rule over a growing majority coalition of minorities.   I think the rhetoric of the last year from that quarter trying to imply that the LEFT was on the verge of starting a hot Civil War if they "didn't get their way" was more projection, and intended to create a certain amount of cover and/or precedent for the type of coup attempt we saw on December 37th and the acute threats of violence from the right that has been bubbling for a very long time.

Perhaps "Cold Civil War" is more apt and less suggestive of endorsing/tolerating violence as a means.

Even the most violent of BLM and related protests did not aspire to overthrow government or reverse an election.   While their attempts to hold law enforcement accountable in response to specific recent incidents (it is not a small list) and systemic abuses might have risen above a threshold of violence that many of us might approve, the movement was NOT about disenfranchising anyone except the very public servants who are supposed to work for us ("Protect and Serve").

All that said, I'm not unsympathetic with the resentments "the common man" has against their elected Representatives in our Republic, but any rhetoric that suggests that the Left is worse than the Right is acutely disingenuous.

Regarding the term "spin"... I *do* think it is apt in the sense of "making your head spin" but I think the metaphor of "churn" is yet more apt in the sense that a great deal of the point seems to be to generate lots of obfuscation by conflation.   Muddying the waters...

- Steve
That's because you think politics is essentially deceitful?

-- rec --

On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 1:59 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

I always thought the metaphor was to a web of deceit.

n

Nick Thompson

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow
Sent: Wednesday, March 10, 2021 12:53 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)

On Tue, Mar 9, 2021 at 3:34 PM Prof David West <[hidden email]> wrote:

schisms might be a better metaphor than civil war.

you are correct that there is, and always has been, "churn" among factions within both parties and any significance given to a particular instance of that churn e.g GOPS taking committee assignments away from a flake or the Nevada state party instance — originate in the mind of the one pointing at the event rather than intrinsic to the event itself. One reason that I find most political headlines to be examples of wishful thinking rather than communicators of significance.

davew

Second that, it's why they call it spin, cause it makes your head spin if you pay too much attention.

-- rec --

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gepr

Re: civil war(s)

When I first saw JBLM, I wondered if they added a new category or qualifier. Alas, the J stands for "Joint".

On 3/10/21 6:35 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:

> Yeah, Oregon will do that to you.
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 7:56 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Ok, I admit it. Some part of my reptile brain is confused when I see BLM signs, because it hashes to the other thing.. for developmental reasons, I guess.____
>
> __ __
>
> *From:* Friam <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 10, 2021 4:18 PM
> *To:* [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)____
>
> __ __
>
> I live on Bundy Lane (100 meters long, with three other households) off of NM 502 and when I give directions to the house I describe it as "Bundy Lane as in Al or Ted" but have had to add "or Ammon and Cliven" to be more current. In another decade I hope none of those references mean anything.____
>
> Yes, there is an element of "chumming" among all the "spinning" and "churning". I also liked Glen's usage of "spinning" with "Wing Nuts" a while back... if Doug were still with us, he'd probably throw in some off-color reference to "Spinners" as well. The boon/bane of metaphor I suppose. ____

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: civil war(s)

I thought it was a new line of speakers. JBL Max.

---
Frank C. Wimberly
140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
Santa Fe, NM 87505

505 670-9918
Santa Fe, NM

On Thu, Mar 11, 2021, 8:39 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ <[hidden email]> wrote:

When I first saw JBLM, I wondered if they added a new category or qualifier. Alas, the J stands for "Joint".

On 3/10/21 6:35 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:
> Yeah, Oregon will do that to you.
>
> -- rec --
>
>
> On Wed, Mar 10, 2021 at 7:56 PM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> wrote:
>
> Ok, I admit it. Some part of my reptile brain is confused when I see BLM signs, because it hashes to the other thing.. for developmental reasons, I guess.____
>
> __ __
>
> *From:* Friam <[hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>> *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Wednesday, March 10, 2021 4:18 PM
> *To:* [hidden email] <mailto:[hidden email]>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] civil war(s)____
>
> __ __
>
> I live on Bundy Lane (100 meters long, with three other households) off of NM 502 and when I give directions to the house I describe it as "Bundy Lane as in Al or Ted" but have had to add "or Ammon and Cliven" to be more current. In another decade I hope none of those references mean anything.____
>
> Yes, there is an element of "chumming" among all the "spinning" and "churning". I also liked Glen's usage of "spinning" with "Wing Nuts" a while back... if Doug were still with us, he'd probably throw in some off-color reference to "Spinners" as well. The boon/bane of metaphor I suppose. ____

--
↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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