chicken-egg::gumflap-talk
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Excellent! Both these 2 comments are useful. Nick raises composition, high to low dimensional projection, and time slicing. And Steve raises many-to-many maps and mirror neurons [†]. All of these seem relevant to understanding the extent to which we might (not) mimic others and need/want higher bandwidth and/or [a]synchronous media.
As I understand it, the Maegherman paper makes an explicit distinction between simple and complex actions so that even though their study showed no motor activity in relation to the imagery, perhaps more complex actions *would*. So, we can fold in both Nick's and Steve's comments by considering something like 1) the deadlift exercise versus 2) drawing a straight line with a pencil. The deadlift is a dangerous exercise because it's difficult to mimic what you see, whereas it's comparatively easy to *see* all the factors involved with drawing a straight line on a piece of paper (a circle, maybe not so much). Before I started lifting weights as an adult [‡], when I saw someone doing a deadlift, my self-imagery involved hands, knees, feet, and back (particularly the lower back). After lots of advice, analysis, and performance of the exercise, I now image my lats, glutes, and transferse abdominis. That change is radical compared to drawing a line with a pencil. Learning to draft, there was a shift between before and after (e.g. spinning the pencil to get a uniform fatness to the line). But the shift wasn't radical. It's relatively easy to learn to draft by watching a draftsman. It's not very easy to learn the deadlift by watching the deadlift. I think we could make the same argument using phonemes common to various languages. E.g. is it easier to lip-read German than Spanish? Would a native English speaker be more or less likely to simulate the articulation of a German speaker since English inherits so much from German? And to touch closer to home, just *how* irritating is it (i.e. how much heat/friction is added to a conversation) when I say Freeam instead of Fryam when rendering FriAM? ... or when Renee' says "pilla", referring to the thing we lay our head on at night? If the signal is difficult for us to simulate, how well can we possibly understand the signal being sent? [†] I have an as-yet-unread book on my shelves "The Myth of Mirror Neurons" ... that is now rising in my queue of unread books. [‡] Kids won't understand because they're indestructible and it almost doesn't matter how they do it. There was this kid, maybe 16, at the Y who would do his exercises and *fidget* between exercises. So irritating to those of us who are just trying not to die while we do the exercises our doctors told us we *have* to do so we can die just a tad more gracefully. Pffft. I hate kids. On 6/9/20 12:31 PM, [hidden email] wrote: > Under that notion, consciousness is at least dual: ie, there is a speaker and a listener and the former has influence over the latter and vv. The writer talks back to the dictator, refusing sometimes to write what is dictated. And once one admits of two agents of the mind, it becomes really easy to imagine others, so mental life becomes rather like reading last week’s FRIAM posts. So, under that theory, when I say “I think”, I am like the public relations representative for large complex organization, the Kelley Conway of the mind. Or like the writer of a Preface for a collection of Friam papers. > > So, your papers give credence in that view because, while there may be many voices “inside” “the head”, there can only be one that gets control of the focal apparatus, and that must require a lot of inhibition to keep us from blithering, even more than we do. And the battle for who gets the microphone must be constant and vicious. On 6/9/20 12:14 PM, Steve Smith wrote: > I also find this fascinating. Unfortunately I've not kept up with this > work... it was very central-to but-unattainable-for the kind of work I > aspired to do while at LANL with access to the funds and equipment to > build high-fidelity (by those standards) synthetic sensoria. We did NOT > have access to fMRI's and similar... the closest to it I got was with my > (on my own time mostly) work with the UNM HPC/Arts-Lab and the MInd > Institute. Human-Subjects testing is hard enough in academia, but > adding the (very appropriate) layers that come with being at Lab that > works with nuclear materials was overwhelmingly hard. The theoretical > physics division had some plays in that area but they were somewhat > distant from the weapons-physics programs that funded the high-end VR > systems we were developing. > > Observing the neural processing (in)directly of *lip-reading* would be a > very specific application of something that was *just* becoming possible > via fMRI and other things "back in the day". The role of "Mirror > Neurons" in non-verbal communication between individuals was > fascinating, but as-yet understudied. Your two articles *do* make me > want to go learn what has happened in those areas... from what I read > here, there must be a great deal more understood and *measureable* than > 10-15 years ago. > > I will happily ( I think ) sit back and listen to you and others reveal > more about this work and it's implications, though I am sure I will be > tempted to chime in looking for implications and applications to a > broader experience than lip-reading. Such as posture/gesture > recognition human-and-machine. > > Just as hoity-toity-bait I'll throw in the word "Labanotation" and stand > back and try to listen. On 6/9/20 10:59 AM, uǝlƃ ☣ wrote: > Motor Imagery of Speech: The Involvement of Primary Motor Cortex in Manual and Articulatory Motor Imagery > https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6579859/ > > Observation-execution matching and action inhibition in human primary motor cortex during viewing of speech-related lip movements or listening to speech > https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0028393211001801?via%3Dihub -- ☣ uǝlƃ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: chicken-egg::gumflap-talk
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Associations to Glen's reply to Nick: Comparing recent discussions here with Nick's description of the communicating mind seems apt to me. Sometimes I lose track of who's writing and and surprised by the signature. Nick, your description of the evolution of your theoretical positions is helpful to me. I am sure that early.in the history of our discussions you have at times denied the existence of consciousness and mind. Do I misremember or have you reconsidered? Speaking of deadlifting, my colleague Phil, at the Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center, was the European champion in his weight class. He could deadlift something like 810 pounds. He died suddenly while trying to lift more while preparing for a match. It might be a good idea to stop at age 55 or so. Frank --- Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz, Santa Fe, NM 87505 505 670-9918 Santa Fe, NM On Tue, Jun 9, 2020, 2:28 PM uǝlƃ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote: Excellent! Both these 2 comments are useful. Nick raises composition, high to low dimensional projection, and time slicing. And Steve raises many-to-many maps and mirror neurons [†]. All of these seem relevant to understanding the extent to which we might (not) mimic others and need/want higher bandwidth and/or [a]synchronous media. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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I can't speak for Nick, but it would be relatively easy to deny the existence of a UNIFIED consciousness without denying the existence of multifarious attentive consciousness. This is largely what I intended to do by focusing on those 2 papers that talk about the [dis]engagement of the motor complexes when *imaging* the generators of whatever behavior one's *observing*. This tendency to abstract is the problem. If we could stop doing that, be just a tiny bit skeptical of the existence of a unified consciousness, then we could make progress *toward* it (or falsifying it). But we can't because EVERYONE keeps assuming it. And they assume it so deeply it's frustrating and conversation becomes pointless.
I turn 55 soon. I don't plan on stopping the deadlift. That sounds like a pretty good way to die, given my alternatives. I can only hope I die while *doing* something. I'm praying [†] for a massive heart attack. One of my cats died that way. It was quick and clean. No mess to clean up or nothing. Way better than another cat that was smashed into the asphalt by an over-sized Jeep tire. That was pretty messy. But at least it was quick and she probably didn't suffer much. I'd hate to force some poor Coroner, EMT, or Renee' to scrape me off the pavement like that. [†] Of course Crom doesn't answer prayers and the religion comes with no benefit. On 6/9/20 3:57 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Associations to Glen's reply to Nick: Comparing recent discussions here with Nick's description of the communicating mind seems apt to me. Sometimes I lose track of who's writing and and surprised by the signature. Nick, your description of the evolution of your theoretical positions is helpful to me. I am sure that early.in <http://early.in> the history of our discussions you have at times denied the existence of consciousness and mind. Do I misremember or have you reconsidered? > > Speaking of deadlifting, my colleague Phil, at the Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center, was the European champion in his weight class. He could deadlift something like 810 pounds. He died suddenly while trying to lift more while preparing for a match. It might be a good idea to stop at age 55 or so. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: chicken-egg::gumflap-talk
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How do dead lift and a graceful death relate to one another? I could see arguments for and against.
On 6/11/20, 8:59 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: I can't speak for Nick, but it would be relatively easy to deny the existence of a UNIFIED consciousness without denying the existence of multifarious attentive consciousness. This is largely what I intended to do by focusing on those 2 papers that talk about the [dis]engagement of the motor complexes when *imaging* the generators of whatever behavior one's *observing*. This tendency to abstract is the problem. If we could stop doing that, be just a tiny bit skeptical of the existence of a unified consciousness, then we could make progress *toward* it (or falsifying it). But we can't because EVERYONE keeps assuming it. And they assume it so deeply it's frustrating and conversation becomes pointless. I turn 55 soon. I don't plan on stopping the deadlift. That sounds like a pretty good way to die, given my alternatives. I can only hope I die while *doing* something. I'm praying [†] for a massive heart attack. One of my cats died that way. It was quick and clean. No mess to clean up or nothing. Way better than another cat that was smashed into the asphalt by an over-sized Jeep tire. That was pretty messy. But at least it was quick and she probably didn't suffer much. I'd hate to force some poor Coroner, EMT, or Renee' to scrape me off the pavement like that. [†] Of course Crom doesn't answer prayers and the religion comes with no benefit. On 6/9/20 3:57 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote: > Associations to Glen's reply to Nick: Comparing recent discussions here with Nick's description of the communicating mind seems apt to me. Sometimes I lose track of who's writing and and surprised by the signature. Nick, your description of the evolution of your theoretical positions is helpful to me. I am sure that early.in <http://early.in> the history of our discussions you have at times denied the existence of consciousness and mind. Do I misremember or have you reconsidered? > > Speaking of deadlifting, my colleague Phil, at the Pittsburgh Supercomputing Center, was the European champion in his weight class. He could deadlift something like 810 pounds. He died suddenly while trying to lift more while preparing for a match. It might be a good idea to stop at age 55 or so. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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The deadlift helps you learn how the posterior chain of muscles and connective tissue work together to achieve a complex action [†] like, say, getting out of your lazy-boy. One of the common flaws in weightlifting is to focus on isolating muscles. Things like the deadlift are more like calisthenics. That compositional (tacit) understanding of how your body works together as a system helps will all sorts of things including balance, objective-orientation, the relation between your bowels and bladder, etc. Systems like crossfit are loaded with that sort of thing ... but I'm not a fan. Calisthenics and yoga would be better. The main reason I like the deadlift is that it helps me understand the task of picking up my 800 lb hight CoG motorcycle [‡] after I've dropped it (which happens embarrassingly often).
[†] And it was complex actions that the Maegherman article speculated might trigger M1, even if their simple behaviors did not. [‡] My last bike was a Ulysses, which held the gas in the frame, significantly lowering the CoG. But it also weighed only 400 lb, if I remember right. On 6/11/20 9:03 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > How do dead lift and a graceful death relate to one another? I could see arguments for and against. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: chicken-egg::gumflap-talk
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Bah, a design problem.. https://www.arcimoto.com/
On 6/11/20, 9:47 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: The deadlift helps you learn how the posterior chain of muscles and connective tissue work together to achieve a complex action [†] like, say, getting out of your lazy-boy. One of the common flaws in weightlifting is to focus on isolating muscles. Things like the deadlift are more like calisthenics. That compositional (tacit) understanding of how your body works together as a system helps will all sorts of things including balance, objective-orientation, the relation between your bowels and bladder, etc. Systems like crossfit are loaded with that sort of thing ... but I'm not a fan. Calisthenics and yoga would be better. The main reason I like the deadlift is that it helps me understand the task of picking up my 800 lb hight CoG motorcycle [‡] after I've dropped it (which happens embarrassingly often). [†] And it was complex actions that the Maegherman article speculated might trigger M1, even if their simple behaviors did not. [‡] My last bike was a Ulysses, which held the gas in the frame, significantly lowering the CoG. But it also weighed only 400 lb, if I remember right. On 6/11/20 9:03 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > How do dead lift and a graceful death relate to one another? I could see arguments for and against. - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Ha! Yeah. Renee' wants a trike. I keep telling her that trikes are for old fat people. It doesn't seem to change her mind.
On 6/11/20 10:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Bah, a design problem.. https://www.arcimoto.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: chicken-egg::gumflap-talk
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Arstechnica loved it
https://arstechnica.com/cars/2017/08/this-three-wheel-ev-is-still-the-most-fun-thing-weve-driven-all-year/ On 6/11/20, 10:28 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: Ha! Yeah. Renee' wants a trike. I keep telling her that trikes are for old fat people. It doesn't seem to change her mind. On 6/11/20 10:22 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > Bah, a design problem.. https://www.arcimoto.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Ha! This just showed up in my email:
https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/youre-never-too-old-to-regain-that-lost-muscle-and-you-can-do-it-at-home/2020/06/05/b221ccc4-a5d1-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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Re: chicken-egg::gumflap-talk
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http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/hb2.htm
On 6/11/20, 11:18 AM, "Friam on behalf of glen∈ℂ" <[hidden email] on behalf of [hidden email]> wrote: Ha! This just showed up in my email: https://www.washingtonpost.com/lifestyle/wellness/youre-never-too-old-to-regain-that-lost-muscle-and-you-can-do-it-at-home/2020/06/05/b221ccc4-a5d1-11ea-bb20-ebf0921f3bbd_story.html - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Yep. That's why I recommend calisthenics and yoga for those of you who fear death. Strength training with bodyweight only is a good compromise. If you have burst an aneurysm doing pull-ups, well, God just wants you closer to her bosom.
On 6/11/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: > http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/hb2.htm - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
uǝʃƃ ⊥ glen
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"It's better to wear out, than to rust out"
> Yep. That's why I recommend calisthenics and yoga for those of you who > fear death. Strength training with bodyweight only is a good > compromise. If you have burst an aneurysm doing pull-ups, well, God > just wants you closer to her bosom. > > On 6/11/20 11:28 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote: >> http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/hb2.htm > > > - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Re: chicken-egg::gumflap-talk
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Or to just seize up in place? -- rec -- On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 6:18 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote: "It's better to wear out, than to rust out" - .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
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Where are you, Roger? n Nicholas Thompson Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology Clark University https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/ From: Friam <[hidden email]> On Behalf Of Roger Critchlow Or to just seize up in place? -- rec -- On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 6:18 PM Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:
- .... . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-. .... . .-. . FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6 bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/ FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ |
Re: chicken-egg::gumflap-talk
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On a boat in Boston Harbor, walking the dog, playing with the internets, defrosted the fridge yesterday, off to the grocery store. -- rec -- On Thu, Jun 11, 2020 at 6:38 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
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