bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich Murray 2010.08.14

[Rich Murray]

bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry,
and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich Murray
2010.08.14

[ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]
http://tska.info/prsnt.html
http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/
http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/ ]

----- Original Message -----
From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>
To: <[hidden email]>
Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM
Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might TSK
promote?

In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by Gaynor
Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of the Turiya
Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:

* Why are values so important to mankind?
* Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values constantly
being presented?
. . .
In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value that he
wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the stocktaking of
values we already have.
. . .
The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the passing out
of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of new
values yet to be born.
. . .
Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge of the
nature of the human person - one that each individual can understand to be
true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?


To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously
underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear seeing,
sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real', or
'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in an open,
nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually, directly,
and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures, limitations,
and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-covery.
Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and simultaneously
shows the sunlight.

Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core
'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were derived
from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:

1: flow
. tension and resistance without effort by a self.
. coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without
control by a self.
. dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.
. a particular person doing something while there is complete
spontaneity, with no doer.
. attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity
or event separate from an effect.

2: creativity
. Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources within the
world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere, with no
source or cause.
. The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly over
time,
and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.
. People and things can be assigned a historical identity while felt to be
discontinuous
or to be recreated moment by moment.

3: accomplishment
. While we can attribute production and service to a particular individual,
that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by itself,
with
no effort.

4: objective space
. Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary space, are
nevertheless
unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher order,
dimensionless space.
. While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no world
order
seems fixed outside and around us.
. Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any
perceived
depth.
. While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.
. Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as extending in
space,
or exclusively occupying space.
. Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can mark
positions;
however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything
is the same space, "here."

5: mental space
. I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from others'
minds.
. I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously existing,
or
independent of "the outside."
. I can have a personal space or position without having to feel separate
from
anything/anyone else.

6: identity
. There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless have no
sense of substantiality or continuous existence.
. There can be recognizable personality without an experience of
personality-owner
and without a feeling of repeated patterns.

7: locus of knowing
. While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel like it
belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.
. When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt distinction
between knower and known.
. When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be
experienced
as a nonlocated encompassing field.

8: content of knowing
. While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still there can
be a
sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.
. The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a
perceiver
nor any feeling of separate context for the object.
. Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to experientially
separate
objects, people, or events.
. Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,
anticipations,
and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.
. Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively positioned
victim
or owner.

9: well-being
. There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion, sensation,
intuition,
and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or feeling
of separate "parts."

10: need and fulfillment
. A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or that course
of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.
. Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or imperfect,
fulfillment
and complete appreciation are immediately available.
. Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is available.
. Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person need not
feel
cut off from or lacking anything.

11: feeling of time
. There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times without any
felt
separation between the times.
. Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition from
one to another.
. Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced duration of a
period
of clock time is not at all fixed.

12: feeling of reality
. While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem ethereal and
insubstantial.
. When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at all is
really
happening.
. The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded
object.
. Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities, certainty
is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities seem.
. Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.
------------------------------------

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[Sarbajit Roy (testing)]

Hi,

I'm sorry, but what is this ?
Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

> bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry,
> and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich Murray
> 2010.08.14
>
> [ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]
> http://tska.info/prsnt.html
> http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/
> http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/
> ]
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>
> To: <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM
> Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might TSK
> promote?
>
> In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by Gaynor
> Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of the Turiya
> Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:
>
> * Why are values so important to mankind?
> * Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values constantly
> being presented?
> . . .
> In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value that he
> wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the stocktaking of
> values we already have.
> . . .
> The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the passing out
> of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of new
> values yet to be born.
> . . .
> Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge of the
> nature of the human person - one that each individual can understand to be
> true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?
>
>
> To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously
> underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear seeing,
> sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real', or
> 'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in an open,
> nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually, directly,
> and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures, limitations,
> and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-covery.
> Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and simultaneously
> shows the sunlight.
>
> Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core
> 'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were derived
> from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:
>
> 1: flow
> . tension and resistance without effort by a self.
> . coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without
> control by a self.
> . dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.
> . a particular person doing something while there is complete
> spontaneity, with no doer.
> . attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity
> or event separate from an effect.
>
> 2: creativity
> . Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources within the
> world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere, with no
> source or cause.
> . The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly over
> time,
> and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.
> . People and things can be assigned a historical identity while felt to be
> discontinuous
> or to be recreated moment by moment.
>
> 3: accomplishment
> . While we can attribute production and service to a particular individual,
> that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by itself,
> with
> no effort.
>
> 4: objective space
> . Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary space, are
> nevertheless
> unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher order,
> dimensionless space.
> . While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no world
> order
> seems fixed outside and around us.
> . Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any
> perceived
> depth.
> . While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.
> . Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as extending in
> space,
> or exclusively occupying space.
> . Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can mark
> positions;
> however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything
> is the same space, "here."
>
> 5: mental space
> . I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from others'
> minds.
> . I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously existing,
> or
> independent of "the outside."
> . I can have a personal space or position without having to feel separate
> from
> anything/anyone else.
>
> 6: identity
> . There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless have no
> sense of substantiality or continuous existence.
> . There can be recognizable personality without an experience of
> personality-owner
> and without a feeling of repeated patterns.
>
> 7: locus of knowing
> . While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel like it
> belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.
> . When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt distinction
> between knower and known.
> . When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be
> experienced
> as a nonlocated encompassing field.
>
> 8: content of knowing
> . While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still there can
> be a
> sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.
> . The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a
> perceiver
> nor any feeling of separate context for the object.
> . Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to experientially
> separate
> objects, people, or events.
> . Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,
> anticipations,
> and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.
> . Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively positioned
> victim
> or owner.
>
> 9: well-being
> . There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion, sensation,
> intuition,
> and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or feeling
> of separate "parts."
>
> 10: need and fulfillment
> . A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or that course
> of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.
> . Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or imperfect,
> fulfillment
> and complete appreciation are immediately available.
> . Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is available.
> . Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person need not
> feel
> cut off from or lacking anything.
>
> 11: feeling of time
> . There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times without any
> felt
> separation between the times.
> . Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition from
> one to another.
> . Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced duration of a
> period
> of clock time is not at all fixed.
>
> 12: feeling of reality
> . While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem ethereal and
> insubstantial.
> . When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at all is
> really
> happening.
> . The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded
> object.
> . Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities, certainty
> is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities seem.
> . Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.
> ------------------------------------
>
> Yahoo! Groups Links
>
> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/
>
> <*> Your email settings:
>     Individual Email | Traditional
>
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>     http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/join
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>
> <*> To change settings via email:
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>     [hidden email]
>
> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>     [hidden email]
>
> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>     http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
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[Victoria Hughes]

Not Yoga, except in that joined place of deep time and refined information that all investigations approach.

Although some parts of his text sound like the Patanjali Sutras.

 Tarthang Tulku is/was a well-known much-loved and much published Tibetan Buddhist Lama, from the Nyinmga lineage. Very old, highly refined investigative mental focus and skepticism. Powerful practice if you do it. 

  He came to the west decades ago and began the Nyingma Buddhist Institute in Berkeley. 

In his practice and observations of Buddhist investigation of the Western psychology, he developed a body of information and practical awareness called Time Space, Knowledge. I did several courses of practice in it when I lived in Berkeley. Nyingma is perched up above the city, above on the campus and near the lab. 

The people involved tended to be of the European academic intellectual bent. Very intense, rigorous practice, the Rinpoche knew his audience. Although like all Tibetan Buddhists, there's a very practical and earthy acceptance. 

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Hi,

I'm sorry, but what is this ?
Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry,

and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich Murray

2010.08.14

[ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]

http://tska.info/prsnt.html

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/

]

----- Original Message -----

From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>

To: <[hidden email]>

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM

Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might TSK

promote?

In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by Gaynor

Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of the Turiya

Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:

* Why are values so important to mankind?

* Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values constantly

being presented?

. . .

In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value that he

wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the stocktaking of

values we already have.

. . .

The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the passing out

of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of new

values yet to be born.

. . .

Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge of the

nature of the human person - one that each individual can understand to be

true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?

To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously

underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear seeing,

sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real', or

'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in an open,

nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually, directly,

and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures, limitations,

and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-covery.

Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and simultaneously

shows the sunlight.

Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core

'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were derived

from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:

1: flow

. tension and resistance without effort by a self.

. coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without

control by a self.

. dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.

. a particular person doing something while there is complete

spontaneity, with no doer.

. attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity

or event separate from an effect.

2: creativity

. Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources within the

world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere, with no

source or cause.

. The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly over

time,

and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.

. People and things can be assigned a historical identity while felt to be

discontinuous

or to be recreated moment by moment.

3: accomplishment

. While we can attribute production and service to a particular individual,

that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by itself,

with

no effort.

4: objective space

. Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary space, are

nevertheless

unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher order,

dimensionless space.

. While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no world

order

seems fixed outside and around us.

. Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any

perceived

depth.

. While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.

. Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as extending in

space,

or exclusively occupying space.

. Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can mark

positions;

however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything

is the same space, "here."

5: mental space

. I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from others'

minds.

. I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously existing,

or

independent of "the outside."

. I can have a personal space or position without having to feel separate

from

anything/anyone else.

6: identity

. There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless have no

sense of substantiality or continuous existence.

. There can be recognizable personality without an experience of

personality-owner

and without a feeling of repeated patterns.

7: locus of knowing

. While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel like it

belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.

. When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt distinction

between knower and known.

. When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be

experienced

as a nonlocated encompassing field.

8: content of knowing

. While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still there can

be a

sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.

. The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a

perceiver

nor any feeling of separate context for the object.

. Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to experientially

separate

objects, people, or events.

. Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,

anticipations,

and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.

. Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively positioned

victim

or owner.

9: well-being

. There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion, sensation,

intuition,

and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or feeling

of separate "parts."

10: need and fulfillment

. A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or that course

of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.

. Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or imperfect,

fulfillment

and complete appreciation are immediately available.

. Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is available.

. Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person need not

feel

cut off from or lacking anything.

11: feeling of time

. There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times without any

felt

separation between the times.

. Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition from

one to another.

. Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced duration of a

period

of clock time is not at all fixed.

12: feeling of reality

. While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem ethereal and

insubstantial.

. When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at all is

really

happening.

. The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded

object.

. Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities, certainty

is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities seem.

. Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/

<*> Your email settings:

   Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/join

   (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:

   [hidden email]

   [hidden email]

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============================================================

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

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[Sarbajit Roy (testing)]

Thanks

I've just been reading some basic stuff about TSK on the net.

The TSK movement seems to me about "living" - making the most out of
life, time / object management for Westerners, whereas Asian Yoga
addresses moving between various mind unrealities and rejection of
earthly existence to assimilate a nothingness into awareness.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Not Yoga, except in that joined place of deep time and refined
> information that all investigations approach.
> Although some parts of his text sound like the Patanjali Sutras.
>
> Tarthang Tulku is/was a well-known much-loved and much published
> Tibetan Buddhist Lama, from the Nyinmga lineage. Very old, highly
> refined investigative mental focus and skepticism. Powerful practice
> if you do it.
>   He came to the west decades ago and began the Nyingma Buddhist
> Institute in Berkeley.
> In his practice and observations of Buddhist investigation of the
> Western psychology, he developed a body of information and practical
> awareness called Time Space, Knowledge. I did several courses of
> practice in it when I lived in Berkeley. Nyingma is perched up above
> the city, above on the campus and near the lab.
> The people involved tended to be of the European academic
> intellectual bent. Very intense, rigorous practice, the Rinpoche knew
> his audience. Although like all Tibetan Buddhists, there's a very
> practical and earthy acceptance.
>
> Tory
>
> On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm sorry, but what is this ?
>> Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>> bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK
>>> inquiry,
>>> and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich
>>> Murray
>>> 2010.08.14
>>>
>>> [ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]
>>> http://tska.info/prsnt.html
>>> http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/
>>> http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/
>>> ]
>>>
>>> ----- Original Message -----
>>> From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>
>>> To: <[hidden email]>
>>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM
>>> Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might
>>> TSK
>>> promote?
>>>
>>> In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by
>>> Gaynor
>>> Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of
>>> the Turiya
>>> Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:
>>>
>>> * Why are values so important to mankind?
>>> * Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values
>>> constantly
>>> being presented?
>>> . . .
>>> In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value
>>> that he
>>> wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the
>>> stocktaking of
>>> values we already have.
>>> . . .
>>> The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the
>>> passing out
>>> of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of
>>> new
>>> values yet to be born.
>>> . . .
>>> Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge
>>> of the
>>> nature of the human person - one that each individual can
>>> understand to be
>>> true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?
>>>
>>>
>>> To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously
>>> underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear
>>> seeing,
>>> sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real',
>>> or
>>> 'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in
>>> an open,
>>> nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually,
>>> directly,
>>> and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures,
>>> limitations,
>>> and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-
>>> covery.
>>> Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and
>>> simultaneously
>>> shows the sunlight.
>>>
>>> Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core
>>> 'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were
>>> derived
>>> from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:
>>>
>>> 1: flow
>>> . tension and resistance without effort by a self.
>>> . coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without
>>> control by a self.
>>> . dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.
>>> . a particular person doing something while there is complete
>>> spontaneity, with no doer.
>>> . attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity
>>> or event separate from an effect.
>>>
>>> 2: creativity
>>> . Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources
>>> within the
>>> world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere,
>>> with no
>>> source or cause.
>>> . The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly
>>> over
>>> time,
>>> and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.
>>> . People and things can be assigned a historical identity while
>>> felt to be
>>> discontinuous
>>> or to be recreated moment by moment.
>>>
>>> 3: accomplishment
>>> . While we can attribute production and service to a particular
>>> individual,
>>> that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by
>>> itself,
>>> with
>>> no effort.
>>>
>>> 4: objective space
>>> . Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary
>>> space, are
>>> nevertheless
>>> unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher
>>> order,
>>> dimensionless space.
>>> . While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no
>>> world
>>> order
>>> seems fixed outside and around us.
>>> . Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any
>>> perceived
>>> depth.
>>> . While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.
>>> . Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as
>>> extending in
>>> space,
>>> or exclusively occupying space.
>>> . Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can
>>> mark
>>> positions;
>>> however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything
>>> is the same space, "here."
>>>
>>> 5: mental space
>>> . I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from
>>> others'
>>> minds.
>>> . I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously
>>> existing,
>>> or
>>> independent of "the outside."
>>> . I can have a personal space or position without having to feel
>>> separate
>>> from
>>> anything/anyone else.
>>>
>>> 6: identity
>>> . There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless
>>> have no
>>> sense of substantiality or continuous existence.
>>> . There can be recognizable personality without an experience of
>>> personality-owner
>>> and without a feeling of repeated patterns.
>>>
>>> 7: locus of knowing
>>> . While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel
>>> like it
>>> belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.
>>> . When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt
>>> distinction
>>> between knower and known.
>>> . When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be
>>> experienced
>>> as a nonlocated encompassing field.
>>>
>>> 8: content of knowing
>>> . While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still
>>> there can
>>> be a
>>> sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.
>>> . The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a
>>> perceiver
>>> nor any feeling of separate context for the object.
>>> . Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to
>>> experientially
>>> separate
>>> objects, people, or events.
>>> . Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,
>>> anticipations,
>>> and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.
>>> . Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively
>>> positioned
>>> victim
>>> or owner.
>>>
>>> 9: well-being
>>> . There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion,
>>> sensation,
>>> intuition,
>>> and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or
>>> feeling
>>> of separate "parts."
>>>
>>> 10: need and fulfillment
>>> . A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or
>>> that course
>>> of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.
>>> . Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or
>>> imperfect,
>>> fulfillment
>>> and complete appreciation are immediately available.
>>> . Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is
>>> available.
>>> . Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person
>>> need not
>>> feel
>>> cut off from or lacking anything.
>>>
>>> 11: feeling of time
>>> . There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times
>>> without any
>>> felt
>>> separation between the times.
>>> . Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition
>>> from
>>> one to another.
>>> . Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced
>>> duration of a
>>> period
>>> of clock time is not at all fixed.
>>>
>>> 12: feeling of reality
>>> . While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem
>>> ethereal and
>>> insubstantial.
>>> . When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at
>>> all is
>>> really
>>> happening.
>>> . The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded
>>> object.
>>> . Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities,
>>> certainty
>>> is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities
>>> seem.
>>> . Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.
>>> ------------------------------------
>>>
>>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>>
>>> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>>>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/
>>>
>>> <*> Your email settings:
>>>    Individual Email | Traditional
>>>
>>> <*> To change settings online go to:
>>>    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/join
>>>    (Yahoo! ID required)
>>>
>>> <*> To change settings via email:
>>>    [hidden email]
>>>    [hidden email]
>>>
>>> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>>    [hidden email]
>>>
>>> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>>>    http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> ============================================================
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> -----------------------------------
>
> TORY HUGHES
> [hidden email]
> Tory Hughes website
> Facebook|Tory Hughes Art
> ------------------------------------
>
>

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Victoria Hughes]

There are many paths up the mountain.

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Thanks

I've just been reading some basic stuff about TSK on the net.

The TSK movement seems to me about "living" - making the most out of
life, time / object management for Westerners, whereas Asian Yoga
addresses moving between various mind unrealities and rejection of
earthly existence to assimilate a nothingness into awareness.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not Yoga, except in that joined place of deep time and refined

information that all investigations approach.

Although some parts of his text sound like the Patanjali Sutras.

Tarthang Tulku is/was a well-known much-loved and much published

Tibetan Buddhist Lama, from the Nyinmga lineage. Very old, highly

refined investigative mental focus and skepticism. Powerful practice

if you do it.

  He came to the west decades ago and began the Nyingma Buddhist

Institute in Berkeley.

In his practice and observations of Buddhist investigation of the

Western psychology, he developed a body of information and practical

awareness called Time Space, Knowledge. I did several courses of

practice in it when I lived in Berkeley. Nyingma is perched up above

the city, above on the campus and near the lab.

The people involved tended to be of the European academic

intellectual bent. Very intense, rigorous practice, the Rinpoche knew

his audience. Although like all Tibetan Buddhists, there's a very

practical and earthy acceptance.

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Hi,

I'm sorry, but what is this ?

Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK

inquiry,

and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich

Murray

2010.08.14

[ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]

http://tska.info/prsnt.html

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/

]

----- Original Message -----

From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>

To: <[hidden email]>

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM

Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might

TSK

promote?

In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by

Gaynor

Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of

the Turiya

Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:

* Why are values so important to mankind?

* Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values

constantly

being presented?

. . .

In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value

that he

wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the

stocktaking of

values we already have.

. . .

The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the

passing out

of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of

new

values yet to be born.

. . .

Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge

of the

nature of the human person - one that each individual can

understand to be

true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?

To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously

underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear

seeing,

sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real',

or

'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in

an open,

nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually,

directly,

and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures,

limitations,

and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-

covery.

Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and

simultaneously

shows the sunlight.

Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core

'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were

derived

from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:

1: flow

. tension and resistance without effort by a self.

. coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without

control by a self.

. dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.

. a particular person doing something while there is complete

spontaneity, with no doer.

. attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity

or event separate from an effect.

2: creativity

. Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources

within the

world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere,

with no

source or cause.

. The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly

over

time,

and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.

. People and things can be assigned a historical identity while

felt to be

discontinuous

or to be recreated moment by moment.

3: accomplishment

. While we can attribute production and service to a particular

individual,

that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by

itself,

with

no effort.

4: objective space

. Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary

space, are

nevertheless

unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher

order,

dimensionless space.

. While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no

world

order

seems fixed outside and around us.

. Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any

perceived

depth.

. While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.

. Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as

extending in

space,

or exclusively occupying space.

. Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can

mark

positions;

however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything

is the same space, "here."

5: mental space

. I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from

others'

minds.

. I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously

existing,

or

independent of "the outside."

. I can have a personal space or position without having to feel

separate

from

anything/anyone else.

6: identity

. There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless

have no

sense of substantiality or continuous existence.

. There can be recognizable personality without an experience of

personality-owner

and without a feeling of repeated patterns.

7: locus of knowing

. While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel

like it

belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.

. When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt

distinction

between knower and known.

. When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be

experienced

as a nonlocated encompassing field.

8: content of knowing

. While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still

there can

be a

sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.

. The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a

perceiver

nor any feeling of separate context for the object.

. Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to

experientially

separate

objects, people, or events.

. Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,

anticipations,

and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.

. Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively

positioned

victim

or owner.

9: well-being

. There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion,

sensation,

intuition,

and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or

feeling

of separate "parts."

10: need and fulfillment

. A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or

that course

of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.

. Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or

imperfect,

fulfillment

and complete appreciation are immediately available.

. Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is

available.

. Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person

need not

feel

cut off from or lacking anything.

11: feeling of time

. There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times

without any

felt

separation between the times.

. Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition

from

one to another.

. Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced

duration of a

period

of clock time is not at all fixed.

12: feeling of reality

. While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem

ethereal and

insubstantial.

. When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at

all is

really

happening.

. The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded

object.

. Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities,

certainty

is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities

seem.

. Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/

<*> Your email settings:

  Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/join

  (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:

  [hidden email]

  [hidden email]

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

  [hidden email]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Victoria Hughes]

Read the texts. Not the commentaries. Experience the raw data.

On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Thanks

I've just been reading some basic stuff about TSK on the net.

The TSK movement seems to me about "living" - making the most out of
life, time / object management for Westerners, whereas Asian Yoga
addresses moving between various mind unrealities and rejection of
earthly existence to assimilate a nothingness into awareness.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not Yoga, except in that joined place of deep time and refined

information that all investigations approach.

Although some parts of his text sound like the Patanjali Sutras.

Tarthang Tulku is/was a well-known much-loved and much published

Tibetan Buddhist Lama, from the Nyinmga lineage. Very old, highly

refined investigative mental focus and skepticism. Powerful practice

if you do it.

  He came to the west decades ago and began the Nyingma Buddhist

Institute in Berkeley.

In his practice and observations of Buddhist investigation of the

Western psychology, he developed a body of information and practical

awareness called Time Space, Knowledge. I did several courses of

practice in it when I lived in Berkeley. Nyingma is perched up above

the city, above on the campus and near the lab.

The people involved tended to be of the European academic

intellectual bent. Very intense, rigorous practice, the Rinpoche knew

his audience. Although like all Tibetan Buddhists, there's a very

practical and earthy acceptance.

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Hi,

I'm sorry, but what is this ?

Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK

inquiry,

and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich

Murray

2010.08.14

[ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]

http://tska.info/prsnt.html

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/

]

----- Original Message -----

From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>

To: <[hidden email]>

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM

Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might

TSK

promote?

In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by

Gaynor

Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of

the Turiya

Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:

* Why are values so important to mankind?

* Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values

constantly

being presented?

. . .

In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value

that he

wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the

stocktaking of

values we already have.

. . .

The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the

passing out

of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of

new

values yet to be born.

. . .

Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge

of the

nature of the human person - one that each individual can

understand to be

true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?

To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously

underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear

seeing,

sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real',

or

'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in

an open,

nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually,

directly,

and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures,

limitations,

and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-

covery.

Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and

simultaneously

shows the sunlight.

Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core

'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were

derived

from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:

1: flow

. tension and resistance without effort by a self.

. coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without

control by a self.

. dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.

. a particular person doing something while there is complete

spontaneity, with no doer.

. attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity

or event separate from an effect.

2: creativity

. Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources

within the

world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere,

with no

source or cause.

. The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly

over

time,

and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.

. People and things can be assigned a historical identity while

felt to be

discontinuous

or to be recreated moment by moment.

3: accomplishment

. While we can attribute production and service to a particular

individual,

that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by

itself,

with

no effort.

4: objective space

. Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary

space, are

nevertheless

unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher

order,

dimensionless space.

. While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no

world

order

seems fixed outside and around us.

. Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any

perceived

depth.

. While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.

. Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as

extending in

space,

or exclusively occupying space.

. Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can

mark

positions;

however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything

is the same space, "here."

5: mental space

. I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from

others'

minds.

. I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously

existing,

or

independent of "the outside."

. I can have a personal space or position without having to feel

separate

from

anything/anyone else.

6: identity

. There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless

have no

sense of substantiality or continuous existence.

. There can be recognizable personality without an experience of

personality-owner

and without a feeling of repeated patterns.

7: locus of knowing

. While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel

like it

belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.

. When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt

distinction

between knower and known.

. When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be

experienced

as a nonlocated encompassing field.

8: content of knowing

. While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still

there can

be a

sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.

. The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a

perceiver

nor any feeling of separate context for the object.

. Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to

experientially

separate

objects, people, or events.

. Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,

anticipations,

and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.

. Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively

positioned

victim

or owner.

9: well-being

. There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion,

sensation,

intuition,

and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or

feeling

of separate "parts."

10: need and fulfillment

. A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or

that course

of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.

. Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or

imperfect,

fulfillment

and complete appreciation are immediately available.

. Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is

available.

. Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person

need not

feel

cut off from or lacking anything.

11: feeling of time

. There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times

without any

felt

separation between the times.

. Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition

from

one to another.

. Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced

duration of a

period

of clock time is not at all fixed.

12: feeling of reality

. While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem

ethereal and

insubstantial.

. When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at

all is

really

happening.

. The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded

object.

. Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities,

certainty

is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities

seem.

. Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/

<*> Your email settings:

  Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/join

  (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:

  [hidden email]

  [hidden email]

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

  [hidden email]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Russ Abbott]

Why do yo think it's important to climb the mountain?

-- Russ

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are many paths up the mountain.

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Thanks

I've just been reading some basic stuff about TSK on the net.

The TSK movement seems to me about "living" - making the most out of
life, time / object management for Westerners, whereas Asian Yoga
addresses moving between various mind unrealities and rejection of
earthly existence to assimilate a nothingness into awareness.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not Yoga, except in that joined place of deep time and refined

information that all investigations approach.

Although some parts of his text sound like the Patanjali Sutras.

Tarthang Tulku is/was a well-known much-loved and much published

Tibetan Buddhist Lama, from the Nyinmga lineage. Very old, highly

refined investigative mental focus and skepticism. Powerful practice

if you do it.

  He came to the west decades ago and began the Nyingma Buddhist

Institute in Berkeley.

In his practice and observations of Buddhist investigation of the

Western psychology, he developed a body of information and practical

awareness called Time Space, Knowledge. I did several courses of

practice in it when I lived in Berkeley. Nyingma is perched up above

the city, above on the campus and near the lab.

The people involved tended to be of the European academic

intellectual bent. Very intense, rigorous practice, the Rinpoche knew

his audience. Although like all Tibetan Buddhists, there's a very

practical and earthy acceptance.

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Hi,

I'm sorry, but what is this ?

Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK

inquiry,

and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich

Murray

2010.08.14

[ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]

http://tska.info/prsnt.html

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/

]

----- Original Message -----

From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>

To: <[hidden email]>

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM

Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might

TSK

promote?

In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by

Gaynor

Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of

the Turiya

Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:

* Why are values so important to mankind?

* Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values

constantly

being presented?

. . .

In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value

that he

wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the

stocktaking of

values we already have.

. . .

The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the

passing out

of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of

new

values yet to be born.

. . .

Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge

of the

nature of the human person - one that each individual can

understand to be

true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?

To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously

underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear

seeing,

sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real',

or

'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in

an open,

nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually,

directly,

and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures,

limitations,

and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-

covery.

Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and

simultaneously

shows the sunlight.

Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core

'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were

derived

from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:

1: flow

. tension and resistance without effort by a self.

. coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without

control by a self.

. dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.

. a particular person doing something while there is complete

spontaneity, with no doer.

. attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity

or event separate from an effect.

2: creativity

. Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources

within the

world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere,

with no

source or cause.

. The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly

over

time,

and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.

. People and things can be assigned a historical identity while

felt to be

discontinuous

or to be recreated moment by moment.

3: accomplishment

. While we can attribute production and service to a particular

individual,

that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by

itself,

with

no effort.

4: objective space

. Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary

space, are

nevertheless

unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher

order,

dimensionless space.

. While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no

world

order

seems fixed outside and around us.

. Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any

perceived

depth.

. While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.

. Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as

extending in

space,

or exclusively occupying space.

. Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can

mark

positions;

however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything

is the same space, "here."

5: mental space

. I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from

others'

minds.

. I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously

existing,

or

independent of "the outside."

. I can have a personal space or position without having to feel

separate

from

anything/anyone else.

6: identity

. There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless

have no

sense of substantiality or continuous existence.

. There can be recognizable personality without an experience of

personality-owner

and without a feeling of repeated patterns.

7: locus of knowing

. While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel

like it

belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.

. When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt

distinction

between knower and known.

. When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be

experienced

as a nonlocated encompassing field.

8: content of knowing

. While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still

there can

be a

sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.

. The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a

perceiver

nor any feeling of separate context for the object.

. Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to

experientially

separate

objects, people, or events.

. Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,

anticipations,

and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.

. Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively

positioned

victim

or owner.

9: well-being

. There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion,

sensation,

intuition,

and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or

feeling

of separate "parts."

10: need and fulfillment

. A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or

that course

of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.

. Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or

imperfect,

fulfillment

and complete appreciation are immediately available.

. Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is

available.

. Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person

need not

feel

cut off from or lacking anything.

11: feeling of time

. There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times

without any

felt

separation between the times.

. Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition

from

one to another.

. Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced

duration of a

period

of clock time is not at all fixed.

12: feeling of reality

. While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem

ethereal and

insubstantial.

. When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at

all is

really

happening.

. The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded

object.

. Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities,

certainty

is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities

seem.

. Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

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<*> Your email settings:

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<*> To change settings online go to:

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<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

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============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Victoria Hughes]

What motivates you?

On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:

Why do yo think it's important to climb the mountain?

-- Russ

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are many paths up the mountain.

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Thanks

I've just been reading some basic stuff about TSK on the net.

The TSK movement seems to me about "living" - making the most out of
life, time / object management for Westerners, whereas Asian Yoga
addresses moving between various mind unrealities and rejection of
earthly existence to assimilate a nothingness into awareness.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not Yoga, except in that joined place of deep time and refined

information that all investigations approach.

Although some parts of his text sound like the Patanjali Sutras.

Tarthang Tulku is/was a well-known much-loved and much published

Tibetan Buddhist Lama, from the Nyinmga lineage. Very old, highly

refined investigative mental focus and skepticism. Powerful practice

if you do it.

  He came to the west decades ago and began the Nyingma Buddhist

Institute in Berkeley.

In his practice and observations of Buddhist investigation of the

Western psychology, he developed a body of information and practical

awareness called Time Space, Knowledge. I did several courses of

practice in it when I lived in Berkeley. Nyingma is perched up above

the city, above on the campus and near the lab.

The people involved tended to be of the European academic

intellectual bent. Very intense, rigorous practice, the Rinpoche knew

his audience. Although like all Tibetan Buddhists, there's a very

practical and earthy acceptance.

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Hi,

I'm sorry, but what is this ?

Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK

inquiry,

and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich

Murray

2010.08.14

[ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]

http://tska.info/prsnt.html

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/

]

----- Original Message -----

From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>

To: <[hidden email]>

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM

Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might

TSK

promote?

In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by

Gaynor

Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of

the Turiya

Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:

* Why are values so important to mankind?

* Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values

constantly

being presented?

. . .

In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value

that he

wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the

stocktaking of

values we already have.

. . .

The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the

passing out

of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of

new

values yet to be born.

. . .

Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge

of the

nature of the human person - one that each individual can

understand to be

true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?

To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously

underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear

seeing,

sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real',

or

'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in

an open,

nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually,

directly,

and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures,

limitations,

and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-

covery.

Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and

simultaneously

shows the sunlight.

Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core

'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were

derived

from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:

1: flow

. tension and resistance without effort by a self.

. coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without

control by a self.

. dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.

. a particular person doing something while there is complete

spontaneity, with no doer.

. attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity

or event separate from an effect.

2: creativity

. Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources

within the

world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere,

with no

source or cause.

. The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly

over

time,

and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.

. People and things can be assigned a historical identity while

felt to be

discontinuous

or to be recreated moment by moment.

3: accomplishment

. While we can attribute production and service to a particular

individual,

that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by

itself,

with

no effort.

4: objective space

. Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary

space, are

nevertheless

unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher

order,

dimensionless space.

. While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no

world

order

seems fixed outside and around us.

. Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any

perceived

depth.

. While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.

. Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as

extending in

space,

or exclusively occupying space.

. Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can

mark

positions;

however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything

is the same space, "here."

5: mental space

. I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from

others'

minds.

. I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously

existing,

or

independent of "the outside."

. I can have a personal space or position without having to feel

separate

from

anything/anyone else.

6: identity

. There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless

have no

sense of substantiality or continuous existence.

. There can be recognizable personality without an experience of

personality-owner

and without a feeling of repeated patterns.

7: locus of knowing

. While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel

like it

belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.

. When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt

distinction

between knower and known.

. When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be

experienced

as a nonlocated encompassing field.

8: content of knowing

. While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still

there can

be a

sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.

. The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a

perceiver

nor any feeling of separate context for the object.

. Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to

experientially

separate

objects, people, or events.

. Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,

anticipations,

and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.

. Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively

positioned

victim

or owner.

9: well-being

. There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion,

sensation,

intuition,

and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or

feeling

of separate "parts."

10: need and fulfillment

. A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or

that course

of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.

. Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or

imperfect,

fulfillment

and complete appreciation are immediately available.

. Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is

available.

. Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person

need not

feel

cut off from or lacking anything.

11: feeling of time

. There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times

without any

felt

separation between the times.

. Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition

from

one to another.

. Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced

duration of a

period

of clock time is not at all fixed.

12: feeling of reality

. While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem

ethereal and

insubstantial.

. When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at

all is

really

happening.

. The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded

object.

. Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities,

certainty

is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities

seem.

. Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/

<*> Your email settings:

  Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/join

  (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:

  [hidden email]

  [hidden email]

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

  [hidden email]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

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============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[michael barron]

rich:

Both concepts are way out there. There ma not be an
answer to the question, if one can formulate one!

with metta, M

PS. I checked out the truck,and there seems to be an oil leak
that effects the gas flow after it warms up. If you have some
time, I need to get the grocery store for some food. My son
and his family are coming this  Wed. for a 4 day visit.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Victoria Hughes
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> What motivates you?
>
> On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>
> Why do yo think it's important to climb the mountain?
>
> -- Russ
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> There are many paths up the mountain.
>> Tory
>>
>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> I've just been reading some basic stuff about TSK on the net.
>>
>> The TSK movement seems to me about "living" - making the most out of
>> life, time / object management for Westerners, whereas Asian Yoga
>> addresses moving between various mind unrealities and rejection of
>> earthly existence to assimilate a nothingness into awareness.
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On 8/15/10, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Not Yoga, except in that joined place of deep time and refined
>>
>> information that all investigations approach.
>>
>> Although some parts of his text sound like the Patanjali Sutras.
>>
>> Tarthang Tulku is/was a well-known much-loved and much published
>>
>> Tibetan Buddhist Lama, from the Nyinmga lineage. Very old, highly
>>
>> refined investigative mental focus and skepticism. Powerful practice
>>
>> if you do it.
>>
>>   He came to the west decades ago and began the Nyingma Buddhist
>>
>> Institute in Berkeley.
>>
>> In his practice and observations of Buddhist investigation of the
>>
>> Western psychology, he developed a body of information and practical
>>
>> awareness called Time Space, Knowledge. I did several courses of
>>
>> practice in it when I lived in Berkeley. Nyingma is perched up above
>>
>> the city, above on the campus and near the lab.
>>
>> The people involved tended to be of the European academic
>>
>> intellectual bent. Very intense, rigorous practice, the Rinpoche knew
>>
>> his audience. Although like all Tibetan Buddhists, there's a very
>>
>> practical and earthy acceptance.
>>
>> Tory
>>
>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm sorry, but what is this ?
>>
>> Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK
>>
>> inquiry,
>>
>> and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich
>>
>> Murray
>>
>> 2010.08.14
>>
>> [ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]
>>
>> http://tska.info/prsnt.html
>>
>> http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/
>>
>>
>> http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/
>>
>> ]
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>
>>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM
>>
>> Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might
>>
>> TSK
>>
>> promote?
>>
>> In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by
>>
>> Gaynor
>>
>> Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of
>>
>> the Turiya
>>
>> Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:
>>
>> * Why are values so important to mankind?
>>
>> * Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values
>>
>> constantly
>>
>> being presented?
>>
>> . . .
>>
>> In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value
>>
>> that he
>>
>> wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the
>>
>> stocktaking of
>>
>> values we already have.
>>
>> . . .
>>
>> The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the
>>
>> passing out
>>
>> of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of
>>
>> new
>>
>> values yet to be born.
>>
>> . . .
>>
>> Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge
>>
>> of the
>>
>> nature of the human person - one that each individual can
>>
>> understand to be
>>
>> true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?
>>
>>
>> To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously
>>
>> underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear
>>
>> seeing,
>>
>> sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real',
>>
>> or
>>
>> 'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in
>>
>> an open,
>>
>> nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually,
>>
>> directly,
>>
>> and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures,
>>
>> limitations,
>>
>> and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-
>>
>> covery.
>>
>> Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and
>>
>> simultaneously
>>
>> shows the sunlight.
>>
>> Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core
>>
>> 'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were
>>
>> derived
>>
>> from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:
>>
>> 1: flow
>>
>> . tension and resistance without effort by a self.
>>
>> . coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without
>>
>> control by a self.
>>
>> . dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.
>>
>> . a particular person doing something while there is complete
>>
>> spontaneity, with no doer.
>>
>> . attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity
>>
>> or event separate from an effect.
>>
>> 2: creativity
>>
>> . Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources
>>
>> within the
>>
>> world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere,
>>
>> with no
>>
>> source or cause.
>>
>> . The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly
>>
>> over
>>
>> time,
>>
>> and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.
>>
>> . People and things can be assigned a historical identity while
>>
>> felt to be
>>
>> discontinuous
>>
>> or to be recreated moment by moment.
>>
>> 3: accomplishment
>>
>> . While we can attribute production and service to a particular
>>
>> individual,
>>
>> that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by
>>
>> itself,
>>
>> with
>>
>> no effort.
>>
>> 4: objective space
>>
>> . Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary
>>
>> space, are
>>
>> nevertheless
>>
>> unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher
>>
>> order,
>>
>> dimensionless space.
>>
>> . While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no
>>
>> world
>>
>> order
>>
>> seems fixed outside and around us.
>>
>> . Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any
>>
>> perceived
>>
>> depth.
>>
>> . While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.
>>
>> . Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as
>>
>> extending in
>>
>> space,
>>
>> or exclusively occupying space.
>>
>> . Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can
>>
>> mark
>>
>> positions;
>>
>> however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything
>>
>> is the same space, "here."
>>
>> 5: mental space
>>
>> . I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from
>>
>> others'
>>
>> minds.
>>
>> . I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously
>>
>> existing,
>>
>> or
>>
>> independent of "the outside."
>>
>> . I can have a personal space or position without having to feel
>>
>> separate
>>
>> from
>>
>> anything/anyone else.
>>
>> 6: identity
>>
>> . There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless
>>
>> have no
>>
>> sense of substantiality or continuous existence.
>>
>> . There can be recognizable personality without an experience of
>>
>> personality-owner
>>
>> and without a feeling of repeated patterns.
>>
>> 7: locus of knowing
>>
>> . While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel
>>
>> like it
>>
>> belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.
>>
>> . When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt
>>
>> distinction
>>
>> between knower and known.
>>
>> . When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be
>>
>> experienced
>>
>> as a nonlocated encompassing field.
>>
>> 8: content of knowing
>>
>> . While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still
>>
>> there can
>>
>> be a
>>
>> sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.
>>
>> . The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a
>>
>> perceiver
>>
>> nor any feeling of separate context for the object.
>>
>> . Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to
>>
>> experientially
>>
>> separate
>>
>> objects, people, or events.
>>
>> . Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,
>>
>> anticipations,
>>
>> and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.
>>
>> . Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively
>>
>> positioned
>>
>> victim
>>
>> or owner.
>>
>> 9: well-being
>>
>> . There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion,
>>
>> sensation,
>>
>> intuition,
>>
>> and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or
>>
>> feeling
>>
>> of separate "parts."
>>
>> 10: need and fulfillment
>>
>> . A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or
>>
>> that course
>>
>> of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.
>>
>> . Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or
>>
>> imperfect,
>>
>> fulfillment
>>
>> and complete appreciation are immediately available.
>>
>> . Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is
>>
>> available.
>>
>> . Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person
>>
>> need not
>>
>> feel
>>
>> cut off from or lacking anything.
>>
>> 11: feeling of time
>>
>> . There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times
>>
>> without any
>>
>> felt
>>
>> separation between the times.
>>
>> . Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition
>>
>> from
>>
>> one to another.
>>
>> . Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced
>>
>> duration of a
>>
>> period
>>
>> of clock time is not at all fixed.
>>
>> 12: feeling of reality
>>
>> . While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem
>>
>> ethereal and
>>
>> insubstantial.
>>
>> . When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at
>>
>> all is
>>
>> really
>>
>> happening.
>>
>> . The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded
>>
>> object.
>>
>> . Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities,
>>
>> certainty
>>
>> is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities
>>
>> seem.
>>
>> . Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> Yahoo! Groups Links
>>
>> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
>>
>>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/
>>
>> <*> Your email settings:
>>
>>   Individual Email | Traditional
>>
>> <*> To change settings online go to:
>>
>>   http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/join
>>
>>   (Yahoo! ID required)
>>
>> <*> To change settings via email:
>>
>>   [hidden email]
>>
>>   [hidden email]
>>
>> <*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
>>
>>   [hidden email]
>>
>> <*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:
>>
>>   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>>
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>>
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>>
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>>
>> TORY HUGHES
>>
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Tory Hughes website
>>
>> Facebook|Tory Hughes Art
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>>
>> -----------------------------------
>> TORY HUGHES
>> [hidden email]
>> Tory Hughes website
>> Facebook|Tory Hughes Art
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
> -----------------------------------
> TORY HUGHES
> [hidden email]
> Tory Hughes website
> Facebook|Tory Hughes Art
> ------------------------------------
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

============================================================
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lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Russ Abbott]

You made the comment about multiple paths up the mountain. I asked you why you think it's important to climb the mountain. Asking about my motivation doesn't answer that question.

-- Russ  

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:52 AM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

What motivates you?

On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:

Why do yo think it's important to climb the mountain?

-- Russ

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are many paths up the mountain.

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Thanks

I've just been reading some basic stuff about TSK on the net.

The TSK movement seems to me about "living" - making the most out of
life, time / object management for Westerners, whereas Asian Yoga
addresses moving between various mind unrealities and rejection of
earthly existence to assimilate a nothingness into awareness.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not Yoga, except in that joined place of deep time and refined

information that all investigations approach.

Although some parts of his text sound like the Patanjali Sutras.

Tarthang Tulku is/was a well-known much-loved and much published

Tibetan Buddhist Lama, from the Nyinmga lineage. Very old, highly

refined investigative mental focus and skepticism. Powerful practice

if you do it.

  He came to the west decades ago and began the Nyingma Buddhist

Institute in Berkeley.

In his practice and observations of Buddhist investigation of the

Western psychology, he developed a body of information and practical

awareness called Time Space, Knowledge. I did several courses of

practice in it when I lived in Berkeley. Nyingma is perched up above

the city, above on the campus and near the lab.

The people involved tended to be of the European academic

intellectual bent. Very intense, rigorous practice, the Rinpoche knew

his audience. Although like all Tibetan Buddhists, there's a very

practical and earthy acceptance.

Tory

On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:

Hi,

I'm sorry, but what is this ?

Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.

Sarbajit

On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:

bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK

inquiry,

and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich

Murray

2010.08.14

[ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]

http://tska.info/prsnt.html

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/

http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/

]

----- Original Message -----

From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>

To: <[hidden email]>

Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM

Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might

TSK

promote?

In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by

Gaynor

Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of

the Turiya

Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:

* Why are values so important to mankind?

* Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values

constantly

being presented?

. . .

In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value

that he

wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the

stocktaking of

values we already have.

. . .

The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the

passing out

of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of

new

values yet to be born.

. . .

Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge

of the

nature of the human person - one that each individual can

understand to be

true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?

To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously

underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear

seeing,

sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real',

or

'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in

an open,

nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually,

directly,

and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures,

limitations,

and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-

covery.

Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and

simultaneously

shows the sunlight.

Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core

'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were

derived

from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:

1: flow

. tension and resistance without effort by a self.

. coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without

control by a self.

. dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.

. a particular person doing something while there is complete

spontaneity, with no doer.

. attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity

or event separate from an effect.

2: creativity

. Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources

within the

world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere,

with no

source or cause.

. The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly

over

time,

and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.

. People and things can be assigned a historical identity while

felt to be

discontinuous

or to be recreated moment by moment.

3: accomplishment

. While we can attribute production and service to a particular

individual,

that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by

itself,

with

no effort.

4: objective space

. Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary

space, are

nevertheless

unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher

order,

dimensionless space.

. While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no

world

order

seems fixed outside and around us.

. Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any

perceived

depth.

. While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.

. Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as

extending in

space,

or exclusively occupying space.

. Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can

mark

positions;

however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything

is the same space, "here."

5: mental space

. I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from

others'

minds.

. I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously

existing,

or

independent of "the outside."

. I can have a personal space or position without having to feel

separate

from

anything/anyone else.

6: identity

. There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless

have no

sense of substantiality or continuous existence.

. There can be recognizable personality without an experience of

personality-owner

and without a feeling of repeated patterns.

7: locus of knowing

. While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel

like it

belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.

. When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt

distinction

between knower and known.

. When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be

experienced

as a nonlocated encompassing field.

8: content of knowing

. While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still

there can

be a

sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.

. The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a

perceiver

nor any feeling of separate context for the object.

. Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to

experientially

separate

objects, people, or events.

. Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,

anticipations,

and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.

. Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively

positioned

victim

or owner.

9: well-being

. There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion,

sensation,

intuition,

and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or

feeling

of separate "parts."

10: need and fulfillment

. A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or

that course

of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.

. Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or

imperfect,

fulfillment

and complete appreciation are immediately available.

. Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is

available.

. Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person

need not

feel

cut off from or lacking anything.

11: feeling of time

. There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times

without any

felt

separation between the times.

. Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition

from

one to another.

. Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced

duration of a

period

of clock time is not at all fixed.

12: feeling of reality

. While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem

ethereal and

insubstantial.

. When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at

all is

really

happening.

. The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded

object.

. Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities,

certainty

is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities

seem.

. Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.

------------------------------------

Yahoo! Groups Links

<*> To visit your group on the web, go to:

  http://groups.yahoo.com/group/tsk/

<*> Your email settings:

  Individual Email | Traditional

<*> To change settings online go to:

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  (Yahoo! ID required)

<*> To change settings via email:

  [hidden email]

  [hidden email]

<*> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:

  [hidden email]

<*> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to:

  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================

FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv

Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College

lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

-----------------------------------

TORY HUGHES

[hidden email]

Tory Hughes website

Facebook|Tory Hughes Art

------------------------------------

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Rich Murray]

Sure soon
Sent from my Verizon Wireless BlackBerry

-----Original Message-----
From: michael barron <[hidden email]>
Sender: [hidden email]
Date: Sun, 15 Aug 2010 10:02:33
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group<[hidden email]>
Reply-To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
        <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk]
 What's TSK inquiry,
 and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich Murray
 2010.08.14

rich:

Both concepts are way out there. There ma not be an
answer to the question, if one can formulate one!

with metta, M

PS. I checked out the truck,and there seems to be an oil leak
that effects the gas flow after it warms up. If you have some
time, I need to get the grocery store for some food. My son
and his family are coming this  Wed. for a 4 day visit.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 9:52 AM, Victoria Hughes
<[hidden email]> wrote:

> What motivates you?
>
> On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:31 AM, Russ Abbott wrote:
>
> Why do yo think it's important to climb the mountain?
>
> -- Russ
>
>
>
> On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:26 AM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]>
> wrote:
>>
>> There are many paths up the mountain.
>> Tory
>>
>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 9:22 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> I've just been reading some basic stuff about TSK on the net.
>>
>> The TSK movement seems to me about "living" - making the most out of
>> life, time / object management for Westerners, whereas Asian Yoga
>> addresses moving between various mind unrealities and rejection of
>> earthly existence to assimilate a nothingness into awareness.
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On 8/15/10, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> Not Yoga, except in that joined place of deep time and refined
>>
>> information that all investigations approach.
>>
>> Although some parts of his text sound like the Patanjali Sutras.
>>
>> Tarthang Tulku is/was a well-known much-loved and much published
>>
>> Tibetan Buddhist Lama, from the Nyinmga lineage. Very old, highly
>>
>> refined investigative mental focus and skepticism. Powerful practice
>>
>> if you do it.
>>
>>   He came to the west decades ago and began the Nyingma Buddhist
>>
>> Institute in Berkeley.
>>
>> In his practice and observations of Buddhist investigation of the
>>
>> Western psychology, he developed a body of information and practical
>>
>> awareness called Time Space, Knowledge. I did several courses of
>>
>> practice in it when I lived in Berkeley. Nyingma is perched up above
>>
>> the city, above on the campus and near the lab.
>>
>> The people involved tended to be of the European academic
>>
>> intellectual bent. Very intense, rigorous practice, the Rinpoche knew
>>
>> his audience. Although like all Tibetan Buddhists, there's a very
>>
>> practical and earthy acceptance.
>>
>> Tory
>>
>> On Aug 15, 2010, at 6:46 AM, Sarbajit Roy wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I'm sorry, but what is this ?
>>
>> Its Yoga, not as we know it Jim.
>>
>> Sarbajit
>>
>> On 8/15/10, Rich Murray <[hidden email]> wrote:
>>
>> bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk] What's TSK
>>
>> inquiry,
>>
>> and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve Randall: Rich
>>
>> Murray
>>
>> 2010.08.14
>>
>> [ re "Time, Space, and Knowledge", Tarthang Tulku, Rinpoche, 1977 ]
>>
>> http://tska.info/prsnt.html
>>
>> http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/about/
>>
>>
>> http://stevrandal.wordpress.com/2009/07/24/whats-the-zone-of-peak-performance/
>>
>> ]
>>
>> ----- Original Message -----
>>
>> From: "stevrandal" <[hidden email]>
>>
>> To: <[hidden email]>
>>
>> Sent: Saturday, August 14, 2010 4:38 PM
>>
>> Subject: [tsk] What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might
>>
>> TSK
>>
>> promote?
>>
>> In a paper titled "Human Values in a Changing World," compiled by
>>
>> Gaynor
>>
>> Austen from handwritten notes by Maaida Palmer, late director of
>>
>> the Turiya
>>
>> Yoga Centres in Australia, Maaida wrote:
>>
>> * Why are values so important to mankind?
>>
>> * Have new values come to be recognised, or are the old values
>>
>> constantly
>>
>> being presented?
>>
>> . . .
>>
>> In this changing world, has anyone discovered a new human value
>>
>> that he
>>
>> wants to disclose? It appears that our task is rather the
>>
>> stocktaking of
>>
>> values we already have.
>>
>> . . .
>>
>> The optimists say the flux in the current lifestyle is but the
>>
>> passing out
>>
>> of old outmoded values that have not worked and the introduction of
>>
>> new
>>
>> values yet to be born.
>>
>> . . .
>>
>> Is it possible to introduce a system of values based on knowledge
>>
>> of the
>>
>> nature of the human person - one that each individual can
>>
>> understand to be
>>
>> true and not just a system that is believed, or seems to be true?
>>
>>
>> To me it seems that with TSK, Tarthang Tulku promotes the previously
>>
>> underrated value of the process or method of inquiry, of clear
>>
>> seeing,
>>
>> sensing, and exploring, going into all apparently fixed, or `real',
>>
>> or
>>
>> 'true' reference points, structures, beliefs, and assumptions, in
>>
>> an open,
>>
>> nonskeptical, yet challenging dis-covery process that eventually,
>>
>> directly,
>>
>> and effectively transparentizes or dissolves all structures,
>>
>> limitations,
>>
>> and fixed dynamics.  Inquiry is a valued means of discovery, or dis-
>>
>> covery.
>>
>> Apparently 'simply' clearing the clouds is sufficient, and
>>
>> simultaneously
>>
>> shows the sunlight.
>>
>> Within the  TSK  texts, paradoxical, shared, naturally inherent, core
>>
>> 'values' or quality-facets  are described.  Those following were
>>
>> derived
>>
>> from (yet may not faithfully represent)  statements in the texts:
>>
>> 1: flow
>>
>> . tension and resistance without effort by a self.
>>
>> . coordination and order with complete spontaneity, and without
>>
>> control by a self.
>>
>> . dancing without a sense of a dancer, or doer of the dancing.
>>
>> . a particular person doing something while there is complete
>>
>> spontaneity, with no doer.
>>
>> . attribution of causation without experiencing a causative entity
>>
>> or event separate from an effect.
>>
>> 2: creativity
>>
>> . Appearance and events can have identifiable causes and sources
>>
>> within the
>>
>> world, and yet things can feel as though they come out of nowhere,
>>
>> with no
>>
>> source or cause.
>>
>> . The same objects, people, and world can be recognized repeatedly
>>
>> over
>>
>> time,
>>
>> and yet be seen as fresh, original appearances each time.
>>
>> . People and things can be assigned a historical identity while
>>
>> felt to be
>>
>> discontinuous
>>
>> or to be recreated moment by moment.
>>
>> 3: accomplishment
>>
>> . While we can attribute production and service to a particular
>>
>> individual,
>>
>> that person can experience the work as an activity that flowed by
>>
>> itself,
>>
>> with
>>
>> no effort.
>>
>> 4: objective space
>>
>> . Familiar things, while separate and distributed over ordinary
>>
>> space, are
>>
>> nevertheless
>>
>> unseparated and even intimately connected within and as a higher
>>
>> order,
>>
>> dimensionless space.
>>
>> . While the physical world may be a referent for any activity, no
>>
>> world
>>
>> order
>>
>> seems fixed outside and around us.
>>
>> . Objects may have an inside and outside, yet they need not have any
>>
>> perceived
>>
>> depth.
>>
>> . While there may be measurable lengths, there is no felt distance.
>>
>> . Although objects have volume, they aren't experienced as
>>
>> extending in
>>
>> space,
>>
>> or exclusively occupying space.
>>
>> . Geographical coordinates and points, and "here" and "there" can
>>
>> mark
>>
>> positions;
>>
>> however, there are no felt spatial divisions or extension-everything
>>
>> is the same space, "here."
>>
>> 5: mental space
>>
>> . I can have a mind without needing to feel that it's separate from
>>
>> others'
>>
>> minds.
>>
>> . I can have a mind without feeling that it's stable, continuously
>>
>> existing,
>>
>> or
>>
>> independent of "the outside."
>>
>> . I can have a personal space or position without having to feel
>>
>> separate
>>
>> from
>>
>> anything/anyone else.
>>
>> 6: identity
>>
>> . There can be people with names and histories who nevertheless
>>
>> have no
>>
>> sense of substantiality or continuous existence.
>>
>> . There can be recognizable personality without an experience of
>>
>> personality-owner
>>
>> and without a feeling of repeated patterns.
>>
>> 7: locus of knowing
>>
>> . While an individual can know and perceive, knowing need not feel
>>
>> like it
>>
>> belongs to a person, takes time, or radiates or occurs from a center.
>>
>> . When a particular person knows an object, there may be no felt
>>
>> distinction
>>
>> between knower and known.
>>
>> . When a particular person knows a locatable object, knowing can be
>>
>> experienced
>>
>> as a nonlocated encompassing field.
>>
>> 8: content of knowing
>>
>> . While particular objects, events, or thoughts are known, still
>>
>> there can
>>
>> be a
>>
>> sense of comprehensive, unbounded knowing.
>>
>> . The perception of a particular object need not involve a sense of a
>>
>> perceiver
>>
>> nor any feeling of separate context for the object.
>>
>> . Thoughts can express distinctions without referring to
>>
>> experientially
>>
>> separate
>>
>> objects, people, or events.
>>
>> . Memories need not refer to a separate past position, and hopes,
>>
>> anticipations,
>>
>> and expectations need not refer to separate future positions.
>>
>> . Pain, suffering, and emotion can appear without a relatively
>>
>> positioned
>>
>> victim
>>
>> or owner.
>>
>> 9: well-being
>>
>> . There can be a person with a personality, reasoning, emotion,
>>
>> sensation,
>>
>> intuition,
>>
>> and different body parts without any sense of fragmentation or
>>
>> feeling
>>
>> of separate "parts."
>>
>> 10: need and fulfillment
>>
>> . A person can have desire and preference, or can pursue this or
>>
>> that course
>>
>> of action, without any sense of need or deficiency.
>>
>> . Whether a situation is labeled positive or negative, ugly or
>>
>> imperfect,
>>
>> fulfillment
>>
>> and complete appreciation are immediately available.
>>
>> . Within a finite duration of clock time infinite fulfillment is
>>
>> available.
>>
>> . Although most of the world is outside the individual, a person
>>
>> need not
>>
>> feel
>>
>> cut off from or lacking anything.
>>
>> 11: feeling of time
>>
>> . There can be distinguishable past, present, and future times
>>
>> without any
>>
>> felt
>>
>> separation between the times.
>>
>> . Events can "occur" without any experienced movement or transition
>>
>> from
>>
>> one to another.
>>
>> . Clock time may be finite and limited, but the experienced
>>
>> duration of a
>>
>> period
>>
>> of clock time is not at all fixed.
>>
>> 12: feeling of reality
>>
>> . While objects and people exist and interact, they can seem
>>
>> ethereal and
>>
>> insubstantial.
>>
>> . When events occur, it can seem dreamlike, as though nothing at
>>
>> all is
>>
>> really
>>
>> happening.
>>
>> . The clearer our perception, the less we see reality as a compounded
>>
>> object.
>>
>> . Although knowledge may refer to physical and mental realities,
>>
>> certainty
>>
>> is diminished in proportion to how experientially separate entities
>>
>> seem.
>>
>> . Experiential fragmentation of objective reality destroys certainty.
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
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>>
>> <*> To visit your group on the web, go to:
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>>
>>   http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>>
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>
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>>
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>>
>> ============================================================
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>> -----------------------------------
>>
>> TORY HUGHES
>>
>> [hidden email]
>>
>> Tory Hughes website
>>
>> Facebook|Tory Hughes Art
>>
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>>
>>
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>> -----------------------------------
>> TORY HUGHES
>> [hidden email]
>> Tory Hughes website
>> Facebook|Tory Hughes Art
>> ------------------------------------
>>
>> ============================================================
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>
> ============================================================
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>
> -----------------------------------
> TORY HUGHES
> [hidden email]
> Tory Hughes website
> Facebook|Tory Hughes Art
> ------------------------------------
>
> ============================================================
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>

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[Steve Smith]

Tory wrote:
> There are many paths up the mountain.
And my path has taken me up many mountains...


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[Jochen Fromm-4]

Good question. Maybe to meet Tarthang Tulku ;-)
Probably to find salvation, enlightenment
and the answer to all of your questions:
what is the purpose of life? Why are we here?
Where are we going to? By the way this
guy from 244 Barking Road, London, has found
the answers, too: http://bit.ly/3w45dN

-J.

----- Original Message -----
From: Russ Abbott
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: Sunday, August 15, 2010 5:31 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] bold concepts re practical unity awareness: Fw: [tsk]
What's TSK inquiry, and what 'new core values' might TSK promote? Steve
Randall: Rich Murray 2010.08.14

Why do yo think it's important to climb the mountain?

-- Russ



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[michael barron]

rich:

deep the Email on this topic going!

with metta, M

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Tory wrote:
>>
>> There are many paths up the mountain.
>
> And my path has taken me up many mountains...
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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>

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[Douglas Roberts-2]

I collected Boletus Barrowsii and Edulus on a mountain today. Therefore it must have been important to climb that mountain, mycologically  speaking, if not philosophically.  

Geeze, I hope this thread doesn't mushroom on us...

--Doug

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tory wrote:

There are many paths up the mountain.

And my path has taken me up many mountains...

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[Pamela McCorduck]

Of course we're all coming over for mushroom sauce on steak, right?

On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

I collected Boletus Barrowsii and Edulus on a mountain today. Therefore it must have been important to climb that mountain, mycologically  speaking, if not philosophically.  

Geeze, I hope this thread doesn't mushroom on us...

--Doug

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tory wrote:

There are many paths up the mountain.

And my path has taken me up many mountains...

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"The mind of this country, taught to aim at low objects, eats upon itself."

	Ralph Waldo Emerson

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[Douglas Roberts-2]

Some of these suckers are so big I'm just going to sauté them up as mushroom steaks!  One per plate.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 7:34 PM, Pamela McCorduck <[hidden email]> wrote:

Of course we're all coming over for mushroom sauce on steak, right?

On Aug 15, 2010, at 7:12 PM, Douglas Roberts wrote:

I collected Boletus Barrowsii and Edulus on a mountain today. Therefore it must have been important to climb that mountain, mycologically  speaking, if not philosophically.  

Geeze, I hope this thread doesn't mushroom on us...

--Doug

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 10:42 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

Tory wrote:

There are many paths up the mountain.

And my path has taken me up many mountains...

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"The mind of this country, taught to aim at low objects, eats upon itself."

	Ralph Waldo Emerson

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[Sarbajit Roy (testing)]

What is a mountain ?

Sarbajit
PS: Sorry for the lag in replying - time zones. Please include me if this goes off-list.

On Sun, Aug 15, 2010 at 8:56 PM, Victoria Hughes <[hidden email]> wrote:

There are many paths up the mountain.

Tory

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