When is something complex

[Mikhail Gorelkin]

MessageP.P.S. I found two new Chaitin's books on Complexity on his site: http://www.cs.umaine.edu/~chaitin/ --Mikhail
  ----- Original Message -----
  From: Mikhail Gorelkin
  To: robert at cirrillian.com ; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
  Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 1:44 PM
  Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex


  The answer is simple: everything is an observational attribute! I found that Yaneer's definition of complexity is... actually the
Kolmogorov complexity (also known as descriptive complexity): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity. I like personally
"Uncomputability of Kolmogorov complexity" and "Chaitin's incompleteness theorem" there. For me, it seems that "aggregation theory"
is one aspect of this complexity. Robert, may you please send me a good reference to IMHO? Thanks, --Mikhail P.S. Hope, it's more
readable :-)



  ----- Original Message -----
    From: Robert Cordingley
    To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
    Sent: Wednesday, September 19, 2007 12:03 PM
    Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex


    Isn't the problem because 'complexity' is an observational attribute and not one that is intrinsic to the universe/domain?
There will be no agreement until a formalism can show a connection with prior formalisms (IMHO).  Yaneer's problem is that it
depends on the language one uses.  Suppose we meet an entirely superior (alien) race that communicates using much more compact
information methods.  Remember the encyclopedia (or the library of congress - you choose) on a stick story?  One very precise
measurement encoded the entire contents of the book(s).

    I was wondering if the problem might be in the name 'complexity' and that 'aggregation theory' might be a better name.  Then I
found this paper on "Spatial Aggregation Theory" that might be a missing link to Visualization?

    http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/yip96spatial.html

    Mind you, I'd need some help to get a thorough understanding of it.  Any takers?

    Robert C

    Mikhail Gorelkin wrote:
      ...let's use this: the minimal description, which "works". ? --Mikhail
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Phil Henshaw
        To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
        Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 11:10 PM
        Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex


        ...maybe a definition that to go with Yaneer's riddle, and that fits with all, is that any individual thing is complex
beyond measure and any explanations are all comparatively very simple, differing among them only by whether they work or not.



        Phil Henshaw                       ????.?? ? `?.????
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          -----Original Message-----
          From: friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Mikhail Gorelkin
          Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 10:31 AM
          To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
          Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex


          It seems I found a more fundamental definition: "So, if you want to characterize the complexity of an object, think about
how much you would have to write in order to describe it. Would it take a sentence, a paragraph, a few pages, a book, or many books?
Count the number of characters in the description. This is complexity." --Yaneer Bar-Yam "Making things works. Solving complex
problems in a complex world", p. 54. So, linear systems have simpler and shorter descriptions than non-linear ones. And the same is
true for centralized vs. decentralized systems. Any thoughts? --Mikhail

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Alfredo CV
            To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
            Sent: Tuesday, September 18, 2007 1:42 AM
            Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex




            To decide if a  phenomena is complex maybe It's necessary to identify patterns of self organization in the "behavior" of
the small units of individual that conform the population of interest. Maybe It's necesary to check the lack of centralized control
and the existence of some stable states.  I think these three features are the diagnostic features of complexity. I guess....

            I don't know what Hayes says but I'll think about these three features for  health insurance, medicare, Social Security
and Pensions in my country... (in fact is not mine, belongs to the richest and the multinationals.... anyhow).

            Regards

            Alfredo CV



health insurance,
Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, and the uninsured

            Mikhail Gorelkin wrote:
+1: I guess that complexity cannot be expressed adequately even in a term of computability. ? --Mikhail

----- Original Message -----
From: "Mikhail Gorelkin" <[hidden email]>
To: "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group" <friam at redfish.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 6:24 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex


  Just two thoughts: 1) it seems that complexity is a more fundamental category than linearity / non-linearity, which are parts of a
sophisticated ***formal*** system; 2) I assume there are types of complexity (and, therefore, many - I mean really many - types)
that cannot be expressed in any formal system (beyond linearity / non-linearity). Something like G?del's theorem. ? --Mikhail

----- Original Message -----
From: "Nicholas Thompson" <[hidden email]>
To: <friam at redfish.com>
Sent: Sunday, September 16, 2007 4:45 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] When is something complex


    Alfredo,

Good question.  In fact, the question of the day, for the Hayes talk.

Mysterious non linear effects in Hayes data leading to the conclusion good
hearted efforts in one direction lead to the opposite result.

I guess "mysterious non-linearity" is a good clue that the phenomenon is
complex.

Nick .





      Message: 1
Date: Sat, 15 Sep 2007 12:12:09 -0500
From: Alfredo CV <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] **today ** Lecture Wed Sep 12 12:30p: Jim Hayes -
Hedging Complex and Chaotic Private Health Insurance Markets and the
Uninsured
To: stephen.guerin at redfish.com, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
Message-ID: <46EC1269.7080008 at gmx.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"


Hi

Of course it?s impossible to me to know details of the speeches you
usually have. In the distance I suppose that the first purpose of each
one of these speeches is to know and evaluate a broad type of cases
where complexity is used to understand phenomena. I wonder what makes
some phenomena suitable to be studied with a "complex" approach. What
must somebody take in consideration to decide that is studying a complex
phenomena?


Regards,


Alfredo CV




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