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What is the most important selection principle in evolution?

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thompnickson2

What is the most important selection principle in evolution?

Hi, Everybody, and Steve, and Miles

Please everybody forgive me for what I am about to garble.

Steve Guerin and I have a long standing argument concerning the above question. He thinks my answer to the above question will be “natural selection.” His answer to that question is, is that as energy flows from high to low concentrations, it seeks, and finds the most efficient route. Today, steve presented to me a most astounding example, which I am sure most of you are familiar with, but which I had never quite grasped. It is illuminated by a metaphor. Imagine a beach and a lifeguard standing on the beach when a drowning swimmer calls out to the lifeguard’s right. Should the lifeguard run directly toward the drowning swimmer. No, because he can make a lot faster progress toward the swimmer while running on the beach than he can while swimming. So he should chose a path that minimizes his time to the swimmer, not the path directly toward the swimmer. That path, the path of least action, will carry him to the right of the swimmer until he reaches he water’s edge and starts to swim. Lifeguards have to be trained to do this, and lifeguards argue about which direction to head off under under which conditions.

Well, light approaching boundary between air and water faces the same situation. And the stunning fact is that light finds the least action path. As I understand it, the light leaves the source in a direction that takes into account the boundary that it is approaching. PLEASE correct me if I have this wrong. Yet, of course, in this situation there is no trial and error. Photons of light just “know” how to do this. If this is true, I promise NEVER to yawn again when one of you is going on about quantum physics.

Now, Steve, èIFç I understood you, you also went on to describe ants behavior and lightening behavior as analogous processes that also find Least Action Pathways. And, I think you are also going to perhaps assert that a tornado is a structure that facilitates a least action pathway. Etc. But these are plainly “historical” processes. I.e, in all cases the process tries out options, and settles on the LAP. But with light, here is no history. Photons are like lifeguards who know instinctively what path to set out on to reach the swimmer with the least action

Could I possibly have this right? Once we get this first bit straightened out, I have a question about its relation to natural selection.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology

Clark University

[hidden email]

https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

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_ Bruno W

Re: What is the most important selection principle in evolution?

Not sure about the natural selection, but here are 2 small (possibly important) corrections.

1. The lifeguard is still to the left of the swimmer when the lifeguard hits the water. But by a much smaller distance than if

he had ran straight at the swimmer.

2. The most widely accepted explanation for the origin of the least action principle has to do with waves or paths, and doesn't

require the photon to know in advance where it should go.

In one version, the wave function of the photon goes out in all directions with a phase at any point given by exp(iS/hbar) where

S is the action. Because hbar is small, the waves oscillate rapidly and generally cancel out everywhere, except of course

when the derivative of the action is zero and the wave stops oscillating completely. This will happen at the path of least (or in some

cases greatest) action.

Feynman did this one better by saying you don't need waves, you integrate over all paths, and you get to include all kinds

of crazy paths, even ones that go in crazy loops and backwards in time and whatever. Once again the extreme action paths

are the only ones that survive in the classical limit (hbar -> 0).

Hope this helps?

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 10:05 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:

Hi, Everybody, and Steve, and Miles

Please everybody forgive me for what I am about to garble.

Steve Guerin and I have a long standing argument concerning the above question. He thinks my answer to the above question will be “natural selection.” His answer to that question is, is that as energy flows from high to low concentrations, it seeks, and finds the most efficient route. Today, steve presented to me a most astounding example, which I am sure most of you are familiar with, but which I had never quite grasped. It is illuminated by a metaphor. Imagine a beach and a lifeguard standing on the beach when a drowning swimmer calls out to the lifeguard’s right. Should the lifeguard run directly toward the drowning swimmer. No, because he can make a lot faster progress toward the swimmer while running on the beach than he can while swimming. So he should chose a path that minimizes his time to the swimmer, not the path directly toward the swimmer. That path, the path of least action, will carry him to the right of the swimmer until he reaches he water’s edge and starts to swim. Lifeguards have to be trained to do this, and lifeguards argue about which direction to head off under under which conditions.

Well, light approaching boundary between air and water faces the same situation. And the stunning fact is that light finds the least action path. As I understand it, the light leaves the source in a direction that takes into account the boundary that it is approaching. PLEASE correct me if I have this wrong. Yet, of course, in this situation there is no trial and error. Photons of light just “know” how to do this. If this is true, I promise NEVER to yawn again when one of you is going on about quantum physics.

Now, Steve, èIFç I understood you, you also went on to describe ants behavior and lightening behavior as analogous processes that also find Least Action Pathways. And, I think you are also going to perhaps assert that a tornado is a structure that facilitates a least action pathway. Etc. But these are plainly “historical” processes. I.e, in all cases the process tries out options, and settles on the LAP. But with light, here is no history. Photons are like lifeguards who know instinctively what path to set out on to reach the swimmer with the least action

Could I possibly have this right? Once we get this first bit straightened out, I have a question about its relation to natural selection.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Angel Edward

Re: What is the most important selection principle in evolution?

Here’s a sidebar from my graphics texxtbook on shortest path:

Sidebar 6.1 Finding the Angle of Reflection

Our derivation of the angle of reflection began with the principle that the angle of reflection equals the angle

of incidence. This principle was known to Euclid and Ptolemy 2000 years ago. Hero of Alexandria showed that

this path was the shortest from the source to the eye (see Exercise 6.13). If wasn’t until the early 17th century

that Fermat stated a more general version known as the principle of least time. However, none of these works

was based on the physics of light propagation but rather on the observation that light took the shortest (fastest)

path. Hence they did not explain why the angle of reflection equaled the angle of incidence nor why light didn’t

take multiple paths. It wasn’t until later in the 17th century that Huygens used the wave nature of light to

derive the angle of reflection.

From the above, refraction follows as does the lifeguard problem.

__________

Ed Angel

Founding Director, Art, Research, Technology and Science Laboratory (ARTS Lab)
Professor Emeritus of Computer Science, University of New Mexico

1017 Sierra Pinon
Santa Fe, NM 87501
505-984-0136 (home) [hidden email]
505-453-4944 (cell) http://www.cs.unm.edu/~angel

On Feb 16, 2020, at 10:33 PM, _ Bruno W <[hidden email]> wrote:

Not sure about the natural selection, but here are 2 small (possibly important) corrections.
1. The lifeguard is still to the left of the swimmer when the lifeguard hits the water. But by a much smaller distance than if
he had ran straight at the swimmer.
2. The most widely accepted explanation for the origin of the least action principle has to do with waves or paths, and doesn't
require the photon to know in advance where it should go.
In one version, the wave function of the photon goes out in all directions with a phase at any point given by exp(iS/hbar) where
S is the action. Because hbar is small, the waves oscillate rapidly and generally cancel out everywhere, except of course
when the derivative of the action is zero and the wave stops oscillating completely. This will happen at the path of least (or in some
cases greatest) action.
Feynman did this one better by saying you don't need waves, you integrate over all paths, and you get to include all kinds
of crazy paths, even ones that go in crazy loops and backwards in time and whatever. Once again the extreme action paths
are the only ones that survive in the classical limit (hbar -> 0).
Hope this helps?

On Sun, Feb 16, 2020 at 10:05 PM <[hidden email]> wrote:
Hi, Everybody, and Steve, and Miles

Please everybody forgive me for what I am about to garble.

Steve Guerin and I have a long standing argument concerning the above question. He thinks my answer to the above question will be “natural selection.” His answer to that question is, is that as energy flows from high to low concentrations, it seeks, and finds the most efficient route. Today, steve presented to me a most astounding example, which I am sure most of you are familiar with, but which I had never quite grasped. It is illuminated by a metaphor. Imagine a beach and a lifeguard standing on the beach when a drowning swimmer calls out to the lifeguard’s right. Should the lifeguard run directly toward the drowning swimmer. No, because he can make a lot faster progress toward the swimmer while running on the beach than he can while swimming. So he should chose a path that minimizes his time to the swimmer, not the path directly toward the swimmer. That path, the path of least action, will carry him to the right of the swimmer until he reaches he water’s edge and starts to swim. Lifeguards have to be trained to do this, and lifeguards argue about which direction to head off under under which conditions.

Well, light approaching boundary between air and water faces the same situation. And the stunning fact is that light finds the least action path. As I understand it, the light leaves the source in a direction that takes into account the boundary that it is approaching. PLEASE correct me if I have this wrong. Yet, of course, in this situation there is no trial and error. Photons of light just “know” how to do this. If this is true, I promise NEVER to yawn again when one of you is going on about quantum physics.

Now, Steve, èIFç I understood you, you also went on to describe ants behavior and lightening behavior as analogous processes that also find Least Action Pathways. And, I think you are also going to perhaps assert that a tornado is a structure that facilitates a least action pathway. Etc. But these are plainly “historical” processes. I.e, in all cases the process tries out options, and settles on the LAP. But with light, here is no history. Photons are like lifeguards who know instinctively what path to set out on to reach the swimmer with the least action

Could I possibly have this right? Once we get this first bit straightened out, I have a question about its relation to natural selection.

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
Clark University
[hidden email]
https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
archives back to 2003: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove