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WedTech: Formalisms In Complexity; Wed Aug 2, 1:30p @ Tesoro

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Owen Densmore

WedTech: Formalisms In Complexity; Wed Aug 2, 1:30p @ Tesoro

Administrator

As you have likely noticed, we've had a few conversations on FRIAM
discussing formalisms in complexity:
[FRIAM] Definition of Complexity
[FRIAM] Dynamics of Complex Systems by Yaneer Bar-Yam
[FRIAM] Lyapunov Exponent
[FRIAM] What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done for us?

You are invited to come chat about all this in person at the WedTech
meeting this Wed, Aug 2.

Due to schedule madness, we'll meet at 1:30, later than usual. We'll
not need the conference room, so we'll meet at Tesoro so we can lunch
while chatting. Best to get there a bit earlier so you can order
lunch/greet before we start.

Feel free to think of an issue or stance taken in the email exchanges
and expand upon the theme. Or come with something new! Devil's
advocates welcome!

Examples taken from the various emails:
- Hubler's and Gell-Mann's Definitions.
- Thermal Dynamic or Statistical Mechanic formalisms.
- Dissipative Structures, Gradients and Work.
- Few Textbooks covering the field.
- What headway has been made in the last 10 years?
- Define Self Organization and/or Emergence.
- Measures: Reynolds number, Correlation Length, etc.
- What's the rush -- its emerging itself!
- It's not a science but an approach.
- This is silly and you are all chasing your tails!

-- Owen

Owen Densmore
http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org

Russell Standish

WedTech: Formalisms In Complexity; Wed Aug 2, 1:30p @ Tesoro

I'd love to make it, but sadly I don't have a plane that flies fast
enough. Need to see if the Thunderbirds will lend me theirs...

On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 11:23:39AM -0600, Owen Densmore wrote:

> As you have likely noticed, we've had a few conversations on FRIAM
> discussing formalisms in complexity:
> [FRIAM] Definition of Complexity
> [FRIAM] Dynamics of Complex Systems by Yaneer Bar-Yam
> [FRIAM] Lyapunov Exponent
> [FRIAM] What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done for us?
>
> You are invited to come chat about all this in person at the WedTech
> meeting this Wed, Aug 2.
>
> Due to schedule madness, we'll meet at 1:30, later than usual. We'll
> not need the conference room, so we'll meet at Tesoro so we can lunch
> while chatting. Best to get there a bit earlier so you can order
> lunch/greet before we start.
>
> Feel free to think of an issue or stance taken in the email exchanges
> and expand upon the theme. Or come with something new! Devil's
> advocates welcome!
>
> Examples taken from the various emails:
> - Hubler's and Gell-Mann's Definitions.
> - Thermal Dynamic or Statistical Mechanic formalisms.
> - Dissipative Structures, Gradients and Work.
> - Few Textbooks covering the field.
> - What headway has been made in the last 10 years?
> - Define Self Organization and/or Emergence.
> - Measures: Reynolds number, Correlation Length, etc.
> - What's the rush -- its emerging itself!
> - It's not a science but an approach.
> - This is silly and you are all chasing your tails!
>
> -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore
> http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
*PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
may safely ignore this attachment.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
Australia http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

Owen Densmore

WedTech: Formalisms In Complexity; Wed Aug 2, 1:30p @ Tesoro

Administrator

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

To kick off our discussions of Formalisms In Complexity, I thought
I'd add this to the mix.

-- Owen

Owen Densmore
http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org

------------------------------------------------------------------

The Six Desert Island Books On Complexity (In no particular order)

This list began after several conversations on FRIAM about formalism,
and its lack, in Complexity. These prompted me to see just what
*was* available. These books all cover part of our Science with
sufficient formalism. I've not read all of any of them, they are
more like references for me, but they are focused on areas important
to be rigorous about within our Science, if it is to be one.

1 - Bar-Yam: Dynamics of Complex Systems
http://tinyurl.com/qumgf
I put this first because it stands in for a Complexity Textbook.
Surprisingly, there are no such texts that I've been able to find.
Bar-Yam does a great job of looking at the areas deemed complex in
the early 1990's when the book was written.

2 - Newman, Barabasi, Watts: The Structure and Dynamics of Networks
http://tinyurl.com/jh3u8
This is "the next best thing" to a textbook, a series of readings,
with a good introduction, in an area within complexity. There are
others books of readings, the SFI redbooks, for example. This is
particularly of interest to us due to the fast rise of graph theory
within modeling.

3 - MacKay: Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms
http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/
http://tinyurl.com/e5len
Robert Holmes led us to this delightful book when he led a couple of
WedTech meetings on the Monte Carlo techniques (Ch 29). This book is
not only exceptional for its breadth, but also for its author putting
the entire book online for free use! He also includes software
examples using open source tools and actively maintains errata on his
website.

4 - Gintis: Game Theory Evolving
http://tinyurl.com/ew3yr
Many of us use Agent Based Modeling for investigating problems. The
agents have behavior and evolve in time. This book is a bit wacky in
its approach, disdaining dogmatic and classical approaches, in order
to focus on the import of evolution within game theory. Its kinda
fun too.

5 - Strogatz: Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos: With Applications
to Physics, Biology, Chemistry and Engineering
http://tinyurl.com/e8ldl
Strogatz may be the best teacher of technically difficult material in
the world! He's won important prizes in this area. This is a great
book for physicists who've always wondered why their profs gently led
them around the great gaping holes in their art.

6 - Devaney: An Introduction to Chaotic Dynamical Systems
http://tinyurl.com/z3l8r
Our sister science, Chaos, has made exquisite headway in formalizing
a difficult area. Were we so lucky! I have Chaos envy! There are
several books out there, but this is the most cited I think. I'd
also consider Davies, Exploring Chaos, for his short treatment and
inclusion of really excellent Java applets, and Williams, Chaos
Theory Tamed, for its very pragmatic, approachable and broad coverage.

On Jul 31, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:

Phil Henshaw-2

WedTech: Formalisms In Complexity; Wed Aug 2, 1:30p @ Tesoro

Great question and great list! The difficulty of the formal treatments
is one the things that jumps out as something to contend with in
discussing them. Simplifying without confusing this level of work is
very hard to do.

I recently found Rob Ulanowicz's "Growth and Development" (1986),
suggested by Stephen Guerin, to be the first text anywhere I've found
that attempts to deal with how internal causation develops. Rob does
not approach the subject from a view of autonomous agents following
rules (a different meaning of autonomy), but from generalizing
eco-system dynamics. It's that he's generalizing on observations,
starting very simple, formalizing one careful piece at a time, and
checking to see what's in the remainder, etc. Does anyone know any
other approaches that try to do that (generalizing on the whole rather
than building up from the parts) in a practical way? It doesn't seem
to be the popular path.

I also think knowledge starts with informal notions and then develops,
so with a field that is breaking new ground you'd expect some
'informality'. The issues of the early Medieval thinkers that gave
birth to science but can't be found anywhere in it now are one example.
Every system goes through an historically necessary succession of
organizational steps which it abandons, I think. Science has progressed
through informal-to-formal stages with various things. With the subject
of complex systems there's still some question as to whether the
knowledge base is ready to do that, though. Isn't it?

It generally starts with 'observation', using a methodology of some
kind. One thing curious about observation is that its main purpose is
to grope around outside one's formalisms to see what else there might be
incorporate. Anyway, that's how I see formality in science, something
you do over and over, continually going back to the source for new
material. The question I can't answer about formalism in complexity
theory is what part of the world has been included in the formality, and
what's been left out.

Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.????
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
680 Ft. Washington Ave
NY NY 10040
tel: 212-795-4844
e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com
explorations: www.synapse9.com

> -----Original Message-----
> From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Owen Densmore
> Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 2:12 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] WedTech: Formalisms In Complexity;Wed
> Aug 2, 1:30p @ Tesoro
>
>
> To kick off our discussions of Formalisms In Complexity, I thought
> I'd add this to the mix.
>
> -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore
> http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Six Desert Island Books On Complexity (In no particular order)
>
> This list began after several conversations on FRIAM about
> formalism,
> and its lack, in Complexity. These prompted me to see just what
> *was* available. These books all cover part of our Science with
> sufficient formalism. I've not read all of any of them, they are
> more like references for me, but they are focused on areas important
> to be rigorous about within our Science, if it is to be one.
>
> 1 - Bar-Yam: Dynamics of Complex Systems
> http://tinyurl.com/qumgf
> I put this first because it stands in for a Complexity Textbook.
> Surprisingly, there are no such texts that I've been able to find.
> Bar-Yam does a great job of looking at the areas deemed complex in
> the early 1990's when the book was written.
>
> 2 - Newman, Barabasi, Watts: The Structure and Dynamics of Networks
> http://tinyurl.com/jh3u8
> This is "the next best thing" to a textbook, a series of readings,
> with a good introduction, in an area within complexity. There are
> others books of readings, the SFI redbooks, for example. This is
> particularly of interest to us due to the fast rise of graph theory
> within modeling.
>
> 3 - MacKay: Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms
> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/
> http://tinyurl.com/e5len
> Robert Holmes led us to this delightful book when he led a couple of
> WedTech meetings on the Monte Carlo techniques (Ch 29). This
> book is
> not only exceptional for its breadth, but also for its author
> putting
> the entire book online for free use! He also includes software
> examples using open source tools and actively maintains
> errata on his
> website.
>
> 4 - Gintis: Game Theory Evolving
> http://tinyurl.com/ew3yr
> Many of us use Agent Based Modeling for investigating problems. The
> agents have behavior and evolve in time. This book is a bit
> wacky in
> its approach, disdaining dogmatic and classical approaches, in order
> to focus on the import of evolution within game theory. Its kinda
> fun too.
>
> 5 - Strogatz: Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos: With Applications
> to Physics, Biology, Chemistry and Engineering
> http://tinyurl.com/e8ldl
> Strogatz may be the best teacher of technically difficult
> material in
> the world! He's won important prizes in this area. This is a great
> book for physicists who've always wondered why their profs
> gently led
> them around the great gaping holes in their art.
>
> 6 - Devaney: An Introduction to Chaotic Dynamical Systems
> http://tinyurl.com/z3l8r
> Our sister science, Chaos, has made exquisite headway in formalizing
> a difficult area. Were we so lucky! I have Chaos envy! There are
> several books out there, but this is the most cited I think. I'd
> also consider Davies, Exploring Chaos, for his short treatment and
> inclusion of really excellent Java applets, and Williams, Chaos
> Theory Tamed, for its very pragmatic, approachable and broad coverage.
>
>
>
> On Jul 31, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>
> > As you have likely noticed, we've had a few conversations on FRIAM
> > discussing formalisms in complexity:
> > [FRIAM] Definition of Complexity
> > [FRIAM] Dynamics of Complex Systems by Yaneer Bar-Yam
> > [FRIAM] Lyapunov Exponent
> > [FRIAM] What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done for us?
> >
> > You are invited to come chat about all this in person at
> the WedTech
> > meeting this Wed, Aug 2.
> >
> > Due to schedule madness, we'll meet at 1:30, later than
> usual. We'll
> > not need the conference room, so we'll meet at Tesoro so we
> can lunch
> > while chatting. Best to get there a bit earlier so you can order
> > lunch/greet before we start.
> >
> > Feel free to think of an issue or stance taken in the email
> exchanges
> > and expand upon the theme. Or come with something new! Devil's
> > advocates welcome!
> >
> > Examples taken from the various emails:
> > - Hubler's and Gell-Mann's Definitions.
> > - Thermal Dynamic or Statistical Mechanic formalisms.
> > - Dissipative Structures, Gradients and Work.
> > - Few Textbooks covering the field.
> > - What headway has been made in the last 10 years?
> > - Define Self Organization and/or Emergence.
> > - Measures: Reynolds number, Correlation Length, etc.
> > - What's the rush -- its emerging itself!
> > - It's not a science but an approach.
> > - This is silly and you are all chasing your tails!
> >
> > -- Owen
> >
> > Owen Densmore
> > http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College lectures,
> > archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>

Jochen Fromm-3

WedTech: Formalisms In Complexity; Wed Aug 2, 1:30p @ Tesoro

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

IMHO formal treatments and formalisms are not helpful for
complex systems, if you want to understand complex systems
in general. They are NOT the right way, because they try to
press the diversity of complex systems into equations with
a few placeholders. This is the old way science has tried
for centuries and which is now more or less obsolete,
since Stephen Wolfram has proposed a "New Kind of Science".
Formal treatments, formalisms and equations are of course
useful for chaos theory. Chaos theory and strange attractors
are fascinating. The problem is that deterministic chaos is
only a very special case of a complex system.

Simplicity has a unified form, but complexity has many
varieties. As Phil says, simplifying without confusing
is not always easy. Perhaps the best way to understand
complexity is to consider it as 'unity in diversity'.
Formal or even mathematical definitions of complexity,
self-organization or emergence are not helpful. They
are helpful for simple systems with dumb particles and
strong regularities, but they are less useful for complex
systems with intelligent agents where many exceptional,
unexpected and accidental events can happen. Classifications
and taxonomies are much more useful wherever one has to
deal with diversity.

What one can do is to describe the different forms and
types of complex systems, the different class of emergence
and self-organization. If one has a more or less comprehensive
set of classes, one can examine how they are connected,
how they have evolved, and if it is possible to find a
general principle like evolution, 'edge of chaos' or
growth which connects them.

-J.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Owen Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, August 01, 2006 8:12 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] WedTech: Formalisms In Complexity;Wed Aug 2, 1:30p @
Tesoro

To kick off our discussions of Formalisms In Complexity, I thought
I'd add this to the mix.

-- Owen

Steve Smith

WedTech: Formalisms In Complexity; Wed Aug 2, 1:30p @ Tesoro

In reply to this post by Owen Densmore

Owen -

this kind of "editorial value added" is "invaluable" , thanks...

- Steve
On Aug 1, 2006, at 12:12 PM, Owen Densmore wrote:

> To kick off our discussions of Formalisms In Complexity, I thought
> I'd add this to the mix.
>
> -- Owen
>
> Owen Densmore
> http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> The Six Desert Island Books On Complexity (In no particular order)
>
> This list began after several conversations on FRIAM about formalism,
> and its lack, in Complexity. These prompted me to see just what
> *was* available. These books all cover part of our Science with
> sufficient formalism. I've not read all of any of them, they are
> more like references for me, but they are focused on areas important
> to be rigorous about within our Science, if it is to be one.
>
> 1 - Bar-Yam: Dynamics of Complex Systems
> http://tinyurl.com/qumgf
> I put this first because it stands in for a Complexity Textbook.
> Surprisingly, there are no such texts that I've been able to find.
> Bar-Yam does a great job of looking at the areas deemed complex in
> the early 1990's when the book was written.
>
> 2 - Newman, Barabasi, Watts: The Structure and Dynamics of Networks
> http://tinyurl.com/jh3u8
> This is "the next best thing" to a textbook, a series of readings,
> with a good introduction, in an area within complexity. There are
> others books of readings, the SFI redbooks, for example. This is
> particularly of interest to us due to the fast rise of graph theory
> within modeling.
>
> 3 - MacKay: Information Theory, Inference, and Learning Algorithms
> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/
> http://tinyurl.com/e5len
> Robert Holmes led us to this delightful book when he led a couple of
> WedTech meetings on the Monte Carlo techniques (Ch 29). This book is
> not only exceptional for its breadth, but also for its author putting
> the entire book online for free use! He also includes software
> examples using open source tools and actively maintains errata on his
> website.
>
> 4 - Gintis: Game Theory Evolving
> http://tinyurl.com/ew3yr
> Many of us use Agent Based Modeling for investigating problems. The
> agents have behavior and evolve in time. This book is a bit wacky in
> its approach, disdaining dogmatic and classical approaches, in order
> to focus on the import of evolution within game theory. Its kinda
> fun too.
>
> 5 - Strogatz: Nonlinear Dynamics and Chaos: With Applications
> to Physics, Biology, Chemistry and Engineering
> http://tinyurl.com/e8ldl
> Strogatz may be the best teacher of technically difficult material in
> the world! He's won important prizes in this area. This is a great
> book for physicists who've always wondered why their profs gently led
> them around the great gaping holes in their art.
>
> 6 - Devaney: An Introduction to Chaotic Dynamical Systems
> http://tinyurl.com/z3l8r
> Our sister science, Chaos, has made exquisite headway in formalizing
> a difficult area. Were we so lucky! I have Chaos envy! There are
> several books out there, but this is the most cited I think. I'd
> also consider Davies, Exploring Chaos, for his short treatment and
> inclusion of really excellent Java applets, and Williams, Chaos
> Theory Tamed, for its very pragmatic, approachable and broad coverage.
>
>
>
> On Jul 31, 2006, at 11:23 AM, Owen Densmore wrote:
>
>> As you have likely noticed, we've had a few conversations on FRIAM
>> discussing formalisms in complexity:
>> [FRIAM] Definition of Complexity
>> [FRIAM] Dynamics of Complex Systems by Yaneer Bar-Yam
>> [FRIAM] Lyapunov Exponent
>> [FRIAM] What have the Romans - sorry - complexity done for us?
>>
>> You are invited to come chat about all this in person at the WedTech
>> meeting this Wed, Aug 2.
>>
>> Due to schedule madness, we'll meet at 1:30, later than usual. We'll
>> not need the conference room, so we'll meet at Tesoro so we can lunch
>> while chatting. Best to get there a bit earlier so you can order
>> lunch/greet before we start.
>>
>> Feel free to think of an issue or stance taken in the email exchanges
>> and expand upon the theme. Or come with something new! Devil's
>> advocates welcome!
>>
>> Examples taken from the various emails:
>> - Hubler's and Gell-Mann's Definitions.
>> - Thermal Dynamic or Statistical Mechanic formalisms.
>> - Dissipative Structures, Gradients and Work.
>> - Few Textbooks covering the field.
>> - What headway has been made in the last 10 years?
>> - Define Self Organization and/or Emergence.
>> - Measures: Reynolds number, Correlation Length, etc.
>> - What's the rush -- its emerging itself!
>> - It's not a science but an approach.
>> - This is silly and you are all chasing your tails!
>>
>> -- Owen
>>
>> Owen Densmore
>> http://backspaces.net - http://redfish.com - http://friam.org
>>
>>
>>
>> ============================================================
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
>> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org