Washington Post: Why I Published Those Cartoons

[Jochen Fromm-3]

 
Perhaps we underestimate the strong influence of the media sometimes?
Consider for example the case of Mikhail Khodorkovsky, I recently
spoke with someone from Russia who was very sure that Khodorkovsky
was a severe criminal and definitely deserves being in jail. I am not
so sure. Here in Western Europe it is a widespread opinion that
Khodorkovsky's prosecution is related to his political ambitions. In
Russia, the public opinion is a bit different, because the coverage
of the media is different. The corresponding Wikipedia article is
disputed: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mikhail_Khodorkovsky
The war in Chechnya is a similar topic, the Russian government blamed
Chechen terrorists for it, and many Russians indeed believe that
Chechnya is full of terrorists, and that the wars against Chechnya
are completely justified. The public opinion is very strongly
influenced by the media. I wonder if they have ever shown pictures
of the holocaust or films like Schindler's List in the Arab media?

The problems with religions is that they are all nearly 2000 years
old. They distort your point of view just as good as the modern
mass media. No religion allows the criticism of sacred symbols,
because it would endanger the integrity of the group, and religions
are like gods fundamentally related to social groups (in ancient
Egypt for example every city was the city of a certain god, the
temple was the house of the god and at the same time the center
of the city). An additional problem in many muslim states is that
there is no clear distinction between state, politics and religion,
the Sharia for example covers both secular and religious life.
A "religious" cartoon is therefore automatically a political issue.

It is thought-provoking that the protests now are much stronger
than the protests against the ongoing war (against what?) of America's
Rancher-In-Chief who obviously lied about the true causes. I also
wonder why there are nearly no protests against the camp in
Guantanamo Bay, which is much worse than any cartoon.

-J.

-----Original Message-----
From: [hidden email] [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf
Of Mohammed El-Beltagy
Sent: Thursday, February 23, 2006 3:38 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Washington Post: Why I Published Those Cartoons

Here is my perspective from Egypt.  There are a couple of crucial points
that I noticed that have been missing in news reporting that you are getting

in the US that might shed some light on the what the fuss is all about and
why the Muslims are reacting the way they do (the protesting, boycott  and
the anger.) :
1. The nature of religious life in the Muslim world
2. The distinction between satirizing Muslims and revered symbols of their
faith

[...]

[Mohammed El-Beltagy]

Of course the media is important, however I was pointing to something
different here. I do not think what is at issue is how religions distort of
our view of reality.the culture you live in and its value does a pretty good
job at that anyways. I even shy from referring to any religion as a singular
monolithic entity that can be easily dissected by our intellectual scalpels.
What I was trying to demonstrate (albeit unsuccessfully) is that-ridiculous
as it may sound for some- for a great many people on this planet; religion
is a crucially important activity. It is something that defines them and
defines their sense of humanity, it is their sole source of strength and
moral sustenance in what is a very cruel and unjust world. Insult their
religion and its symbols and you injure them at a very personal level. It is
not what religion allows or disallows, it how people feel about it and
relate to it. Egyptians are naturally outraged by what goes on at Guantanamo
and Abu-Gharib, yet mocking revered symbols of their religion hurts them far
more. I know that this might not make a great deal of sense; it may be
difficult to grasp or understand, but you are in danger of trying to impose
your own priorities on degrees of moral outrage on others.



Now with regards to holocaust in Egyptian media (Arab media is too broad and
diverse), Schindler's list was out in the movie theaters when it was
released, even more touching was Benigni's brilliant La Vita e Bella.
However, the holocaust is not part of our immediate historic experience, it
does not and never will define a very proximate human tragedy the way is
does for Europeans.  Palestine and the suffering of the Palestinian people
is the proximate human tragedy for Arabs in general. They sympathize with
them; they feel the pain of the dispossession of their land, the cruelty of
the occupation, their daily humiliation at checkpoints. This suffering is
felt much less by Europeans and most Americans are oblivious to it. the
media plays an important role here.  The sorry situation of Iraq is now a
fresh wound. It serves to distance Arabs from the west in general. Many feel
a great deal of disillusionment with some of the west's defining values that
were once admired, further fueling proponents of a religious state.



This cartoon episode goes to further illustrate the growing cultural divide
between the Muslim world and the west. It is a gulf that is growing at an
exponential rate. I fear that there might come a point where we lose our
ability to communicate as all thought will be framed in opposing and
hermetically sealed sets of values.






[...]The public opinion is very strongly

> influenced by the media. I wonder if they have ever shown pictures
> of the holocaust or films like Schindler's List in the Arab media?
>
> The problems with religions is that they are all nearly 2000 years
> old. They distort your point of view just as good as the modern
> mass media. No religion allows the criticism of sacred symbols,
> because it would endanger the integrity of the group, and religions
> are like gods fundamentally related to social groups (in ancient
> Egypt for example every city was the city of a certain god, the
> temple was the house of the god and at the same time the center
> of the city). An additional problem in many muslim states is that
> there is no clear distinction between state, politics and religion,
> the Sharia for example covers both secular and religious life.
> A "religious" cartoon is therefore automatically a political issue.
>
> It is thought-provoking that the protests now are much stronger
> than the protests against the ongoing war (against what?) of America's
> Rancher-In-Chief who obviously lied about the true causes. I also
> wonder why there are nearly no protests against the camp in
> Guantanamo Bay, which is much worse than any cartoon.
>

[Steve Smith]

Mohammed -

I, for one, "get" what you are trying to say, at least in a few small
ways.

I personally, hold no identifiable theistic/phrophet-oriented religion,
however, I *do* hold (have held?) a similar set of values and deep
reactions around a whole other set of beliefs, terminology, icons and
symbols surrounding "rational thought", "scientfic method",
"mathematics" etc.    In my youth I could be hugely incensed by the
misuse or deliberate ridicule of "science".   The whole NewAge (rhymes
with "sewage") movement kept me hopping mad throughout the 80's and
well into the 90's for their "misuse" of the terms coined by science.  
It was only Gary Larson's poking fun at "scientists" that finally got
me to let go of (some of) that anger reaction.

I also grew up in small towns, rural environments, among people close
to the earth...  both literally among those with adobe floors their
grandparents built and their parents added onto, and those whose
livelihood involved getting (very) dirty every day.  Ranchers, farmers,
miners, sawyers, etc.   I grew into another culture, a culture
dominated by "city people"... people born or at least raised in the
context of larger towns, often even cities.   Milk came from milkmen or
the dairy case, not from cows, travel was always by vehicle - public or
private, water and light and heat (and coolth!) came from a wire or
pipe in the wall.

I was used to a very *grounded" culture and had to endure an esthetic,
a reality, an opinion base that ignored, denied, or denigrated
everything I'd been born to.   I discovered a whole world of human
beings who at best idolized the "wilderness" and took high-tech
excursions into it for a few hours, days or even weeks, and at worst,
completely dismissed everything not made of concrete, metal or glass,
and anyone who got the least bit dirty in the pursuit of their
livelihood.

I soon came to straddle those two worlds.  Like a shaman, or like a
pariah, depending on the moment, I had to take in the best and worst of
both cultures.   And I saw hugely bad behaviour from both sides, each,
in turn threatening, dismissing, resenting, hating the other.    With
my feet (and head) in both worlds, I was burdened and honored with
having to see both sides, to hold the same resentments and harms along
with the insights and inspirations of both.

I am not muslim, I do not live in third world poverty/hopelessness, I
have only barely visited other countries, so I do not imagine I know
much, if anything of the real experiences of these other peoples, these
other worlds.   I've read as much of the Koran as the New or Old
Testament, the Tao te Ching, other "holy" books... but I don't "get"
the experience of those who live these faith-bases.   But I do sense
the deep otherness that comes with them.   Just as I found "city" other
unto inscrutable in my young adulthood, I find these organized systems
of belief as alien and suspect I would have to spend years, perhaps
decades within their confines to begin to internalize any of this.

So, in the bottom line... it doesn't surprise me that the more
vocal/extreme elements of the muslim culture would react to "our"
behaviour as extremely as they have,nor that the average man on the
street would be deeply offended and incensed by our satirical attacks
on their symbols.

The terrorist attacks of september 11, 2001 were much more against
*symbols* than the individuals who were killed or maimed.   Wall Street
(our economy) and the Pentagon (our military) were the targets.   Many
of us reacted in a split response...   I, for example, could not
accept/tolerate the attack on "innocent civilians" but at least
understood the motivation at an idealistic level of wanting to strike
back against our military and economic power/threat.

When we attacked Iraq, many more innocents were killed, maimed and
threatened than on September 11, and all in the name of a suite of
ideals and concepts that were probably mostly foriegn to the victims of
our aggression.   I understand the emotions and even some of the logic
of our attack, but that doesn't mean I pretend that the victims of it
should begin to understand it.

The west, including some Danish cartoonists, have repeatedly attacked a
way of life, a point of view, belief system, a perspective that we
don't really understand, and are now surprised at the reaction.    It
is *very* inconvenient for me that the muslim world feels threatened
and dismissed by our very threatening and dismissive behaviour but it
doesn't surprise me.   I don't suppose most of the muslim world was all
that surprised that we took the use of our own airlliners as suicide
bombs against our most revered symbols of military and economic power,
as "fighting words" and responded the way we did.   Most of the people
suffering our wrath did not plan or execute those attacks, many
probably did not even tacitly condone them, yet suffer they do.   And
sadly, those of us who did not satirize the prophet of Islam, etc.  
will suffer the indignation and perhaps wrath of the muslim world for
some time to come.

They do this, we do that.
The fued continues,
as fueds always have
and always will

[Mohammed El-Beltagy]

> I, for one, "get" what you are trying to say, at least in a few small
> ways.
[...]
>
> I soon came to straddle those two worlds.  Like a shaman, or like a
> pariah, depending on the moment, I had to take in the best and worst of
> both cultures.   And I saw hugely bad behaviour from both sides, each,
> in turn threatening, dismissing, resenting, hating the other.    With
> my feet (and head) in both worlds, I was burdened and honored with
> having to see both sides, to hold the same resentments and harms along
> with the insights and inspirations of both.

You certainly do get my point, thanks Steve.

It is quite rare to find people who straddle multiple cultures and who are
able to appreciate the complexities and beauty that makes each one of them
special, and though they might formulate their own independent world view or
be attracted to whichever culture, they are not dismissive of the "other".

[...]  I don't suppose most of the muslim world was all
> that surprised that we took the use of our own airlliners as suicide
> bombs against our most revered symbols of military and economic power,
> as "fighting words" and responded the way we did.   Most of the people
> suffering our wrath did not plan or execute those attacks, many
> probably did not even tacitly condone them, yet suffer they do.   And
> sadly, those of us who did not satirize the prophet of Islam, etc.
> will suffer the indignation and perhaps wrath of the muslim world for
> some time to come.
>

Ignorance feeds ignorance, and extremism on one side creates and extremism
on the other. Unless there are more people like you in the west and the
Muslim world who can see beyond the demonized "other" and their own self
righteous indignation.



> They do this, we do that.
> The fued continues,
> as fueds always have
> and always will

I sure hope the vicious cycle stop, if there is a future for humanity beyond
the next 100 or so years.

[Steve Smith]

>
>> They do this, we do that.
>> The fued continues,
>> as fueds always have
>> and always will
>
> I sure hope the vicious cycle stop, if there is a future for humanity
> beyond
> the next 100 or so years.

I submit to you all, the following poem.

From:
        http://www.diacenter.org/prg/poetry/97_98/lux.html

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THE PEOPLE OF THE OTHER VILLAGE



hate the people of this village
and would nail our hats
to our heads for refusing in their presence to remove them
or staple our hands to our foreheads
for refusing to salute them
if we did not hurt them first: mail them packages of rats,
mix their flour at night with broken glass.
We do this, they do that.
They peel the larynx from one of our brothers? throats.
We devein one of their sisters.
The quicksand pits they built were good.
Our amputation teams were better.
We trained some birds to steal their wheat.
They sent to us exploding ambassadors of peace.
They do this, we do that.
We canceled our sheep imports.
They no longer bought our blankets.
We mocked their greatest poet
and when that had no effect
we parodied the way they dance
which did cause pain, so they, in turn, said our God
was leprous, hairless.
We do this, they do that.
Ten thousand (10,000) years, ten thousand
(10,000) brutal, beautiful years.



from SPLIT HORIZON, (Houghton Mifflin, 1994)





?
? 1995-2006 Dia Art Foundation



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[Steve Smith]

>
>> They do this, we do that.
>> The fued continues,
>> as fueds always have
>> and always will
>
> I sure hope the vicious cycle stop, if there is a future for humanity
> beyond
> the next 100 or so years.

I submit to you all, the following poem.

From:
        http://www.diacenter.org/prg/poetry/97_98/lux.html

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THE PEOPLE OF THE OTHER VILLAGE



hate the people of this village
and would nail our hats
to our heads for refusing in their presence to remove them
or staple our hands to our foreheads
for refusing to salute them
if we did not hurt them first: mail them packages of rats,
mix their flour at night with broken glass.
We do this, they do that.
They peel the larynx from one of our brothers? throats.
We devein one of their sisters.
The quicksand pits they built were good.
Our amputation teams were better.
We trained some birds to steal their wheat.
They sent to us exploding ambassadors of peace.
They do this, we do that.
We canceled our sheep imports.
They no longer bought our blankets.
We mocked their greatest poet
and when that had no effect
we parodied the way they dance
which did cause pain, so they, in turn, said our God
was leprous, hairless.
We do this, they do that.
Ten thousand (10,000) years, ten thousand
(10,000) brutal, beautiful years.



from SPLIT HORIZON, (Houghton Mifflin, 1994)





?
? 1995-2006 Dia Art Foundation



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[Dede Densmore-2]

Steve,
  I know you didn't intend it, but that was a rotten thing to do to my
morning. I will defend to the death your and Mr. Lux's right to say
these things, but I wish you'd warned me first so I could exercise my
right not to read them. No, of course I don't want parental guidance
labels on FRIAM e-mails. On the other hand, this does raise interesting
questions on the umm ... artistic quality? artistic validity? ethics?  
of adding more really ugly images to a world already filled with them.
Is there a thread here? Or one for Friday?
Dede
On Feb 26, 2006, at 9:00 PM, steve smith wrote:

>>
>>> They do this, we do that.
>>> The fued continues,
>>> as fueds always have
>>> and always will
>>
>> I sure hope the vicious cycle stop, if there is a future for humanity
>> beyond
>> the next 100 or so years.
>
> I submit to you all, the following poem.
>
> From:
> http://www.diacenter.org/prg/poetry/97_98/lux.html
>
> <image.tiff>
> <image.tiff>
>
>
>
>
> THE PEOPLE OF THE OTHER VILLAGE
>
>
>
> hate the people of this village
> and would nail our hats
> to our heads for refusing in their presence to remove them
> or staple our hands to our foreheads
> for refusing to salute them
> if we did not hurt them first: mail them packages of rats,
> mix their flour at night with broken glass.
> We do this, they do that.
> They peel the larynx from one of our brothers? throats.
> We devein one of their sisters.
> The quicksand pits they built were good.
> Our amputation teams were better.
> We trained some birds to steal their wheat.
> They sent to us exploding ambassadors of peace.
> They do this, we do that.
> We canceled our sheep imports.
> They no longer bought our blankets.
> We mocked their greatest poet
> and when that had no effect
> we parodied the way they dance
> which did cause pain, so they, in turn, said our God
> was leprous, hairless.
> We do this, they do that.
> Ten thousand (10,000) years, ten thousand
> (10,000) brutal, beautiful years.
>
>
>
> from SPLIT HORIZON, (Houghton Mifflin, 1994)
>
>
>
>
>
> ?
> ? 1995-2006 Dia Art Foundation
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

[Steve Smith]

Dede and list -

I apologize if Lux's poem was too graphic and too blunt.   I remember
the first time I read it and it did raise the hair on my entire body
(no small thing on my body!) and recognize that it is very visceral.  
Perhaps it *should* come with warning labels!   My apologies.

The point of my submission of this poem was that it is the very best,
most graphic (sorry), concise, and pointed expression I've ever come
across of what I believe is the fundamental driver for our collective
bad behavior as a species.

Tit for Tat, as it were.

I'm not a christian by any stretch of the imagination, but the point
about "turning the other cheek" vs "an eye for an eye" would be quite
apt here.   I believe that most bad behavior by humans is either driven
by or hidden behind the innate desire to "get even" for some wrong.  
This almost always leads to a runaway, positive feedback loop and
almost never remains contained between the proverbial Hatfields and
their proverbial Nemesis' the McCoys...

An eye for an eye always escalates to an eye *and a pound of flesh* for
an eye... and spreads via.. "yeah!, and same to you and every one who
looks like you!"

As a large, educated, white, male, I've endured a lifetime of rejection
and abuse by others who felt rejected and abused by the large, the
educated, the white or the male.   Find me more than a handful of
people who haven't been experienced bullying from at least one of those
classes.   I've struggled very hard since I became aware of this
position, not to respond "in kind", turning this into an excuse for
mistrusting or even abusing "little napoleans", "ignorants", "women",
"non-whites".

Not all of my large, white, educated, male peers have been as
introspective or aware of this as I have and have subsequently turned
the crank on the wheel of reincarnation of misery themselves, taking a
defensible but not very enlightened position of "they do this, I'll do
that".  I fall into variations of this trap myself from time to time.

One key may be a more precise understanding of who "they" is, what
"this" and "that" are.  "that" is invariably escalated with a bigger
"THAT" and "they" is usually widened to include many innocents as a
collective "THEY".

Meanwhile, I've watched just about any other identifiably separable
group carry their own collective chips on their own collective
shoulders, just waiting for someone to knock them off so they can,
themselves, take their collective angst out on some other collective.


An eye for an eye, or turn the other cheek?
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or *before they do
unto you*.

Small but not subtle differences that keep the world in perpetual hate,
fear, and turmoil.  I don't expect the world to come to this awareness
anytime soon, but that doesn't stop me from striving for it myself and
spreading it where I can.

To anyone who has read this far, I apologize again for the viscerality
of Lux's poem... it doesn't pull any punches and I'm guilty of having
become desensitized to it's power over the years since I first read it.

- Steve


On Feb 27, 2006, at 11:14 AM, Dede Densmore wrote:

> Steve,
>   I know you didn't intend it, but that was a rotten thing to do to my
> morning. I will defend to the death your and Mr. Lux's right to say
> these things, but I wish you'd warned me first so I could exercise my
> right not to read them. No, of course I don't want parental guidance
> labels on FRIAM e-mails. On the other hand, this does raise interesting
> questions on the umm ... artistic quality? artistic validity? ethics?
> of adding more really ugly images to a world already filled with them.
> Is there a thread here? Or one for Friday?
> Dede

[Gary Schiltz-3]

I find it interesting (and disconcerting) that I didn't find the poem to
be all that disturbing. And I see myself as being an amiable,
non-violent person. Perhaps I have simply watched too many Hollywood
movies and too much American television and read too little poetry for
the written word to sink in as deeply as it once did... not to mention
having grown up in the USA...

// Gary

steve smith wrote:
> Dede and list -
>
> I apologize if Lux's poem was too graphic and too blunt.   I remember
> the first time I read it and it did raise the hair on my entire body
> (no small thing on my body!) and recognize that it is very visceral.  
> Perhaps it *should* come with warning labels!   My apologies.
>  

[Dede Densmore-2]

  Steve-
Shortly into formulating a response to your response, I realized there
was way too much about me and not enough about the issues. While I'm
weeding however, I want to say "Thank you. You're a gentleman and a
scholar." More later.
Dede
On Mar 1, 2006, at 9:08 AM, steve smith wrote:

> Dede and list -
>
> I apologize if Lux's poem was too graphic and too blunt.   I remember
> the first time I read it and it did raise the hair on my entire body
> (no small thing on my body!) and recognize that it is very visceral.
> Perhaps it *should* come with warning labels!   My apologies.
>
> The point of my submission of this poem was that it is the very best,
> most graphic (sorry), concise, and pointed expression I've ever come
> across of what I believe is the fundamental driver for our collective
> bad behavior as a species.
>
> Tit for Tat, as it were.
>
> I'm not a christian by any stretch of the imagination, but the point
> about "turning the other cheek" vs "an eye for an eye" would be quite
> apt here.   I believe that most bad behavior by humans is either driven
> by or hidden behind the innate desire to "get even" for some wrong.
> This almost always leads to a runaway, positive feedback loop and
> almost never remains contained between the proverbial Hatfields and
> their proverbial Nemesis' the McCoys...
>
> An eye for an eye always escalates to an eye *and a pound of flesh* for
> an eye... and spreads via.. "yeah!, and same to you and every one who
> looks like you!"
>
> As a large, educated, white, male, I've endured a lifetime of rejection
> and abuse by others who felt rejected and abused by the large, the
> educated, the white or the male.   Find me more than a handful of
> people who haven't been experienced bullying from at least one of those
> classes.   I've struggled very hard since I became aware of this
> position, not to respond "in kind", turning this into an excuse for
> mistrusting or even abusing "little napoleans", "ignorants", "women",
> "non-whites".
>
> Not all of my large, white, educated, male peers have been as
> introspective or aware of this as I have and have subsequently turned
> the crank on the wheel of reincarnation of misery themselves, taking a
> defensible but not very enlightened position of "they do this, I'll do
> that".  I fall into variations of this trap myself from time to time.
>
> One key may be a more precise understanding of who "they" is, what
> "this" and "that" are.  "that" is invariably escalated with a bigger
> "THAT" and "they" is usually widened to include many innocents as a
> collective "THEY".
>
> Meanwhile, I've watched just about any other identifiably separable
> group carry their own collective chips on their own collective
> shoulders, just waiting for someone to knock them off so they can,
> themselves, take their collective angst out on some other collective.
>
>
> An eye for an eye, or turn the other cheek?
> Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, or *before they do
> unto you*.
>
> Small but not subtle differences that keep the world in perpetual hate,
> fear, and turmoil.  I don't expect the world to come to this awareness
> anytime soon, but that doesn't stop me from striving for it myself and
> spreading it where I can.
>
> To anyone who has read this far, I apologize again for the viscerality
> of Lux's poem... it doesn't pull any punches and I'm guilty of having
> become desensitized to it's power over the years since I first read it.
>
> - Steve
>
>
> On Feb 27, 2006, at 11:14 AM, Dede Densmore wrote:
>
>> Steve,
>>   I know you didn't intend it, but that was a rotten thing to do to my
>> morning. I will defend to the death your and Mr. Lux's right to say
>> these things, but I wish you'd warned me first so I could exercise my
>> right not to read them. No, of course I don't want parental guidance
>> labels on FRIAM e-mails. On the other hand, this does raise
>> interesting
>> questions on the umm ... artistic quality? artistic validity? ethics?
>> of adding more really ugly images to a world already filled with them.
>> Is there a thread here? Or one for Friday?
>> Dede
>
>
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>

[Steve Smith]

On Mar 1, 2006, at 10:03 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:

> I find it interesting (and disconcerting) that I didn't find the  
> poem to
> be all that disturbing. And I see myself as being an amiable,
> non-violent person. Perhaps I have simply watched too many Hollywood
> movies and too much American television and read too little poetry for
> the written word to sink in as deeply as it once did... not to mention
> having grown up in the USA...

I think it was the reference to "deviening" that put me over the top  
the first time... I recommend you have it readaloud by a loved one  
(after posting all the appropriate warnings around the room) to get  
the full effect.