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WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.

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Nick Thompson

WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.

Sure, Phil. . Road Rage! It is an example of altuistic enforcement of a
norm at a risk to the individual doing the enforcing.

Gotta Run,

Nick

> [Original Message]
> From: phil henshaw <sy at synapse9.com>
> To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>

> Date: 7/16/2007 4:00:32 PM
> Subject: RE: [FRIAM] WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.
>
> Yea,... I guess I wasn't following that thread. I think I branched from
> it, but sorry if interrupting somehthing. Most natural system models
> of altruism, of course, are necessarily missing the self-conscious
> aspect that we human folks consider to be the main issue in that. Do
> you know any way to get people to think about non-self-conscious
> altruism? I think that's a tough one.
>
> Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.????
> ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> NY NY 10040
> tel: 212-795-4844
> e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com
> explorations: www.synapse9.com
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 1:09 AM
> > To: friam at redfish.com
> > Subject: [FRIAM] WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.
> >
> >
> > AND SHOULD BE AGAIN!
> >
> > What happened to that lovely little thread about whether
> > relatedness explained ant and bee social behavior and whether
> > human evolution suggested that human beings only were
> > altruistic toward strangers when they were confused.
> >
> > GET YOUR OWN DARN THREAD, GUYS!
> > (;-\}
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
> >
>

Carver Tate

WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.

But when someone commits an act of road rage they are not only hurting
themselves, but also hurting the person they are acting out against,
so how can that be altruistic? Are we defining altruism as simply
trying to maintain the status quo? Also, Josh and I were having a
talk about this last week and another thing to consider about human
altruism vs. animal altruism is culture. Even though a person may be
acting unconsciously in an act of road rage, they are still responding
to instincts that have been shaped by the culture they grew up in.
Thus, an American might act differently than a Japanese person in the
same situation even if they are acting without thinking.
- Carver

On 7/16/07, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:

> Sure, Phil. . Road Rage! It is an example of altuistic enforcement of a
> norm at a risk to the individual doing the enforcing.
>
> Gotta Run,
>
> Nick
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: phil henshaw <sy at synapse9.com>
> > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> > Date: 7/16/2007 4:00:32 PM
> > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.
> >
> > Yea,... I guess I wasn't following that thread. I think I branched from
> > it, but sorry if interrupting somehthing. Most natural system models
> > of altruism, of course, are necessarily missing the self-conscious
> > aspect that we human folks consider to be the main issue in that. Do
> > you know any way to get people to think about non-self-conscious
> > altruism? I think that's a tough one.
> >
> > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.????
> > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> > NY NY 10040
> > tel: 212-795-4844
> > e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com
> > explorations: www.synapse9.com
> >
> >
> > > -----Original Message-----
> > > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> > > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> > > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 1:09 AM
> > > To: friam at redfish.com
> > > Subject: [FRIAM] WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.
> > >
> > >
> > > AND SHOULD BE AGAIN!
> > >
> > > What happened to that lovely little thread about whether
> > > relatedness explained ant and bee social behavior and whether
> > > human evolution suggested that human beings only were
> > > altruistic toward strangers when they were confused.
> > >
> > > GET YOUR OWN DARN THREAD, GUYS!
> > > (;-\}
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> > >
> > >
> >
>
>
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

--
"There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris." - McGeorge Bundy

Roger Critchlow-2

WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.

It has to do with the conditions under which cooperative societies are not
destroyed by the selfish.

The research (which I'd reference if I had it handy) shows that a
willingness to inflict punishment on the selfish, even at a cost to oneself,
is one condition under which cooperative societies can persist. Nick's
example of road rage flips the usual view of such incidents, but it fits:
road rage, whether it results in a clip on the evening news or just an
arousal of anger in a driver, is usually set off by some particularly
egregious violation of driving courtesy. To commit a particularly
newsworthy act of road rage in response to selfishness sends a message to
all discourteous drivers and maintains the civility of the roads at the cost
of one's drivers license, some fines, and a possible jail term.

The cultural variations may be interesting, but I'm pretty sure that Nick is
thinking that the willingness to inflict punishment at cost to oneself is
part of the social mammalian inheritage, cultural only in the modes of
expression.

-- rec --

On 7/18/07, Carver Tate <carvertate at gmail.com> wrote:

>
> But when someone commits an act of road rage they are not only hurting
> themselves, but also hurting the person they are acting out against,
> so how can that be altruistic? Are we defining altruism as simply
> trying to maintain the status quo? Also, Josh and I were having a
> talk about this last week and another thing to consider about human
> altruism vs. animal altruism is culture. Even though a person may be
> acting unconsciously in an act of road rage, they are still responding
> to instincts that have been shaped by the culture they grew up in.
> Thus, an American might act differently than a Japanese person in the
> same situation even if they are acting without thinking.
> - Carver
>
>
> On 7/16/07, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > Sure, Phil. . Road Rage! It is an example of altuistic enforcement of
> a
> > norm at a risk to the individual doing the enforcing.
> >
> > Gotta Run,
> >
> > Nick
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: phil henshaw <sy at synapse9.com>
> > > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied
> Complexity
> > Coffee Group <friam at redfish.com>
> > > Date: 7/16/2007 4:00:32 PM
> > > Subject: RE: [FRIAM] WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.
> > >
> > > Yea,... I guess I wasn't following that thread. I think I branched
> from
> > > it, but sorry if interrupting somehthing. Most natural system models
> > > of altruism, of course, are necessarily missing the self-conscious
> > > aspect that we human folks consider to be the main issue in that. Do
> > > you know any way to get people to think about non-self-conscious
> > > altruism? I think that's a tough one.
> > >
> > > Phil Henshaw ????.?? ? `?.????
> > > ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> > > 680 Ft. Washington Ave
> > > NY NY 10040
> > > tel: 212-795-4844
> > > e-mail: pfh at synapse9.com
> > > explorations: www.synapse9.com
> > >
> > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: friam-bounces at redfish.com
> > > > [mailto:friam-bounces at redfish.com] On Behalf Of Nicholas Thompson
> > > > Sent: Monday, July 16, 2007 1:09 AM
> > > > To: friam at redfish.com
> > > > Subject: [FRIAM] WAS: 2. Re: Ants and Bees, Oh My.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > AND SHOULD BE AGAIN!
> > > >
> > > > What happened to that lovely little thread about whether
> > > > relatedness explained ant and bee social behavior and whether
> > > > human evolution suggested that human beings only were
> > > > altruistic toward strangers when they were confused.
> > > >
> > > > GET YOUR OWN DARN THREAD, GUYS!
> > > > (;-\}
> > > >
> > > > Nick
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > ============================================================
> > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > > > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
>
>
> --
> "There is no safety in unlimited technological hubris." - McGeorge Bundy
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
>

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