The possibility of self knowledge

[Nick Thompson]

Robert,

Now we are getting somewhere.!
!  But I need to know, oddly enough, what you mean by deterministic.   I assume you mean NOT deterministic but unfathomable.  As I understand the term, all complex systems are deterministic, but are unfathomable because of their exquisite dependency on initial conditions.  

Am I wrong?

Nick

Nicholas Thompson
nickthompson at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson


----- Original Message -----
From: Robert Holmes
To: nickthompson at earthlink.net;The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Sent: 11/28/2005 9:28:10 PM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge




On 11/28/05, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
<snip>
What is it
that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a computer
couldnt do?

Nick

Responding emotionally, not deterministically

Robert
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[Robert Holmes-2]

Hi Nick,

Nope, I really do mean deterministic. First up, you can make a complex
system out of a bunch of deterministic relations but that doesn't mean you
have to. You can make a complex system out of stochastic relations as well.
Secondly, you don't always get a sensitivity with respect to initial
conditions. For example the logistic equation x <- kx(1-x) is only chaotic
for k > 3.57. Below that it has fixed point attractors or shows
period-doubling.

So what does this have to do with my computer? Well I'm not sure that my
computer is a complex system, but even if it is when I'm just playing around
with it (like now) it's close enough to an attractor that it gives
consistent answers to the question of (say) what is your CPU loading. It
doesn't matter whether I opened Word first or Firefox, my CPU still says
that it's running around 10%. (Actually that's a pretty convincing proof
that a my PC's CPU performance isn't well-described as a complex system. It
doesn't display much sensitivity to initial conditions at all.) Anyway, to a
pretty good approximation it's a (non-complex) deterministic system.

And I'm not. The answer to the question "how are you?" is highly stochastic
and is affected (but not determined) by my temporal distance from my last
coffee, how well I slept last night, who I've just seen on CNN, whether that
irritating pain in my back is still there etc etc.

Robert

On 11/28/05, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:

>
>  Robert,
>
> Now we are getting somewhere.!
> !  But I need to know, oddly enough, what you mean by deterministic.   I
> assume you mean NOT deterministic but unfathomable.  As I understand the
> term, all complex systems are deterministic, but are unfathomable because of
> their exquisite dependency on initial conditions.
>
> Am I wrong?
>
> Nick
>
>  Nicholas Thompson
> nickthompson at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enickthompson>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Robert Holmes <rholmes62 at gmail.com>
> *To: *nickthompson at earthlink.net;The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> *Sent:* 11/28/2005 9:28:10 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
>
>
>
> On 11/28/05, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > <snip>
> > What is it
> > that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a
> > computer
> > couldnt do?
> >
> > Nick
>
>
> Responding emotionally, not deterministically
>
> Robert
>
>

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