The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

[Marcus G. Daniels]

"I'll tell you one other thing I'm not proud of in myself. I've been so angry at Republicans that I have had no sympathy for the people in Florida and Texas."

If it is any consolation, Irma did head west.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 1:57:31 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Glen goes, "Other than Trump and the last dying gasps of the traits that got him elected, the rest of us believe the country was (and kinda still is) on a very good track!"

I wish I could be that optimistic. The Republicans have managed to get control of the majority of state governments, which let them gerrymander the districts in 2010. If they keep that control, they will continue with the gerrymandering.  Between gerrymandering and the electoral college, it will be tough to get them out of power.  Unfortunately, technology will not solve global warming and the increased pollution Trump has unleashed. It won't solve healthcare. It won't solve voter suppression. It won't solve troglodyte courts.  It won't solve increasing inequality. No matter how good our technology gets, we can't ignore the damage government can do when controlled by the sort of people who have grabbed power -- and are doing their best to arrange things so that they keep it.  I wish I could be more optimistic about the future of the country, but I'm not.

I'll tell you one other thing I'm not proud of in myself. I've been so angry at Republicans that I have had no sympathy for the people in Florida and Texas. I even know that most of the people who are hurt the most are probably Democrats. Still I can't seem to find any empathy for those states as such.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Stuff like--maybe revolution?

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ writes:

"I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond that."

Yeah, time for lawyers, boycotts, and stuff like that.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 10:25:43 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Now that I've actually read the article I wouldn't change what I wrote, but I'd like to add a brief comment.

I agree with Roberts that "it’s been a long time since I felt the thinness of the veneer of civilization and our vulnerability to a sequence of events that might threaten not just the policy positions I might favor but the very existence of the American experiment."

But I disagree with Roberts that the problem is as symmetric as he makes it out. (That was Marcus's point.)  He gives an example of Trump lying followed by the press fact checking him. That's followed by Trump supporters concluding that the press is unfair and Trump opponents becoming even more convinced that Trump is a lying buffoon. I agree that that all happens. (On Google+ where I post a lot, I often make that point when someone posts a clear example of Trump's hying and hypocrisy. I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond that.)  But as I said, it's not symmetric. When Trump lies yet another time, it is the media's job to fact check him. (Roberts agrees with that.) Then what? Trump and his supporters then attack the media. That's not part of our political norms. When a politician is fact-checked we expect the politician to respond honestly and his supporters to do likewise. The fact that the Trump side continually breaks norms cannot be blamed on the Trump opponents. Unfortunately Roberts is too committed to the conservative side to be honest about that. His piece would have been a lot better if he had.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:10 AM Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

There was a good TED talk by two women who remained friends even though they differed significantly politically. It's important, I believe, to be able to stay friends -- or at remain on civil terms -- with people we disagree with.  However, I think that Marcus is right that in certain situations that's not the most important issue. As he said, politics today -- and for the past 2 decades or so -- has not been symmetric. One side, for the most part, has lived by the norm of wanting to remain on civil terms with the other side; the other side, has taken as its priority to grab as much power as possible without regard to anything else. Civil relations be damned. When an aggressor country invades a peaceful neighbor the priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to survive and repel the invasion. When a psychopath attacks you, one's priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to defend oneself against the attack. I'm sure there there are honest and civilized conservatives -- for example Ross Douthat of the NYT -- but so many of them don't care about remaining on civil terms. Their priority is to steal as much as possible in any way possible. When Obama nominated Garland and McConnell refused to hold hearings, Obama and Garland stayed on civil terms with McConnell. That didn't make peace or move any useful process forward. In that case it's not clear what else could have been done, but striving for civility in the face of rampant aggression and evil makes no sense. That's why no society can survive without some sort of norm enforcement mechanism, e.g., police, social disapproval, etc. Civility does not solve every problem.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 8:40 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

"Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, in caloris veritas. 

It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of the moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth about anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying."

That's a plausible assertion if the topic is about the social properties of the group.   I don't see why it is plausible if the topic is some completely different thing, say, like how an engine works, or the diplomatic conditions in North Korea.  But I wasn't talking about speaking impulsively, I was talking about speaking without concern for how certain people feel, or what they will do, and only being willing to get down to the brass tacks with them (if there is going to by any interaction at all).   I don't see any reason to be generous and forgiving in the way Roberts' describes; it doesn't matter to me how hard the feelings are or how deep the divisions go.    I think that is bad advice because it rewards the bully, and encourages him/them to do it again and again, knowing that the opposition with chicken-out in end in the name of civility.  So, unlike Steve, I'm not optimizing for peace.   (That's a fine thing for him to optimize for, but that's him.)   It reminds me of what Christopher Hitchens' said a decade ago about a possible advanced agenda of Christian conservatives:  "It wouldn't last very long and would, I hope, lead to civil war, which they will lose, but for which it would be a great pleasure to take part."

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Nick Thompson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:11:26 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

Dear Marcus, Owen

 

Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, in caloris veritas.  It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of the moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth about anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying. 

 

Hey Frank; did I get the Latin right? 

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:21 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Owen,

 

On several occasions over the years, I have been advised by `neural third parties' that the content of my writing can be edgy, but that in person I'm "Not that way" or "He's fine."   Now, some people think that in-person interactions are more representative of a person's character.   That if we just get in front of one another and _see_ the others' feelings, all conflict will be resolved.  No.  I would suggest Roberts' (Friedman, and other popular writers) preoccupation with civility is mistaken.   Civility may keep people from killing each other, temporarily, but it certainly isn't informative.  It is just the application of social skill, and this is not the same thing as listening, thinking, or being honest in debate.  It is a weak facilitator.  The problem with the current situation is that one side is just dishonest.  In the ternary world of politics, the `don't care' folks are in the crossfire, and that is appropriate.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:04:42 PM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Medium, my current outlet of choice, has an interesting "story" (Medium deals in Stories, not Tech nor Politics nor ...). It echos a lot of what we've been dealing with.

   

https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned-upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5

 

Somewhat dark, but awfully close to home.

 

   -- Owen

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Steve Smith]

Merle -

By some measure, didn't we just experience a "bloodless" revolution just under a year ago?

Didn't the 1% and the Evangelicals enlist the mainstream Conservatives to rally the unwashed masses to help them put a manipulable (if not predictable or exactly controllable) clown on deck to play "loose canon" for them?   They got a Cabinet made up (almost?) exclusively of themselves (Evangelical Pence and 1% DeVoss et, al) and (re)stacked the Supreme Court in their favor, and at least threw a lot of chaff in the air by stirring things up with Mexico, the Islamic world, NK, Russia, etc. while kicking as many legs out from under the stool of social progressiveness as they could?

The Republican controlled Congress are not prepared for *leading*, nearly as much as obstructionism.  So their is a LOT of confusion and incompetence in both branches of the Gov't right now... a pretty weak result from a "revolution" one might think, but effective at least at disrupting Progress(ive momentum).

On the other hand, it does feel like it sets the stage for "yet another" backlash against all of that meanness, corruption, myscompetence.   This supports Glen's idea that in spite of all the above, things *might be* on a good track in spite of the apparent chaos? 

I wonder if the "grassroots" aren't a lot more ready to take sweeping issues more seriously (positively?) than pre Trump or if Hillary were in office?     Sort of a "backlash" of it's own?

- Polly Anna

On 9/14/17 1:39 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:

Stuff like--maybe revolution?

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Merle Lefkoff-2]

Have any of you been watching the t.v. Hulu series of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale"?  I read it three decades ago and it is spooking me out once more because the understory is the normalization of a subversive societal move toward a dystopian fascist state. It's promoted as science fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch.  Women in the new society, of course, get the worst of it.  Duh.

 

 

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Glen goes, "Other than Trump and the last dying gasps of the traits that got him elected, the rest of us believe the country was (and kinda still is) on a very good track!"

I wish I could be that optimistic. The Republicans have managed to get control of the majority of state governments, which let them gerrymander the districts in 2010. If they keep that control, they will continue with the gerrymandering.  Between gerrymandering and the electoral college, it will be tough to get them out of power.  Unfortunately, technology will not solve global warming and the increased pollution Trump has unleashed. It won't solve healthcare. It won't solve voter suppression. It won't solve troglodyte courts.  It won't solve increasing inequality. No matter how good our technology gets, we can't ignore the damage government can do when controlled by the sort of people who have grabbed power -- and are doing their best to arrange things so that they keep it.  I wish I could be more optimistic about the future of the country, but I'm not.

I'll tell you one other thing I'm not proud of in myself. I've been so angry at Republicans that I have had no sympathy for the people in Florida and Texas. I even know that most of the people who are hurt the most are probably Democrats. Still I can't seem to find any empathy for those states as such.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Stuff like--maybe revolution?

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ writes:

"I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond that."

Yeah, time for lawyers, boycotts, and stuff like that.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 10:25:43 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Now that I've actually read the article I wouldn't change what I wrote, but I'd like to add a brief comment.

I agree with Roberts that "it’s been a long time since I felt the thinness of the veneer of civilization and our vulnerability to a sequence of events that might threaten not just the policy positions I might favor but the very existence of the American experiment."

But I disagree with Roberts that the problem is as symmetric as he makes it out. (That was Marcus's point.)  He gives an example of Trump lying followed by the press fact checking him. That's followed by Trump supporters concluding that the press is unfair and Trump opponents becoming even more convinced that Trump is a lying buffoon. I agree that that all happens. (On Google+ where I post a lot, I often make that point when someone posts a clear example of Trump's hying and hypocrisy. I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond that.)  But as I said, it's not symmetric. When Trump lies yet another time, it is the media's job to fact check him. (Roberts agrees with that.) Then what? Trump and his supporters then attack the media. That's not part of our political norms. When a politician is fact-checked we expect the politician to respond honestly and his supporters to do likewise. The fact that the Trump side continually breaks norms cannot be blamed on the Trump opponents. Unfortunately Roberts is too committed to the conservative side to be honest about that. His piece would have been a lot better if he had.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:10 AM Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

There was a good TED talk by two women who remained friends even though they differed significantly politically. It's important, I believe, to be able to stay friends -- or at remain on civil terms -- with people we disagree with.  However, I think that Marcus is right that in certain situations that's not the most important issue. As he said, politics today -- and for the past 2 decades or so -- has not been symmetric. One side, for the most part, has lived by the norm of wanting to remain on civil terms with the other side; the other side, has taken as its priority to grab as much power as possible without regard to anything else. Civil relations be damned. When an aggressor country invades a peaceful neighbor the priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to survive and repel the invasion. When a psychopath attacks you, one's priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to defend oneself against the attack. I'm sure there there are honest and civilized conservatives -- for example Ross Douthat of the NYT -- but so many of them don't care about remaining on civil terms. Their priority is to steal as much as possible in any way possible. When Obama nominated Garland and McConnell refused to hold hearings, Obama and Garland stayed on civil terms with McConnell. That didn't make peace or move any useful process forward. In that case it's not clear what else could have been done, but striving for civility in the face of rampant aggression and evil makes no sense. That's why no society can survive without some sort of norm enforcement mechanism, e.g., police, social disapproval, etc. Civility does not solve every problem.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 8:40 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

"Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, in caloris veritas. 

It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of the moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth about anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying."

That's a plausible assertion if the topic is about the social properties of the group.   I don't see why it is plausible if the topic is some completely different thing, say, like how an engine works, or the diplomatic conditions in North Korea.  But I wasn't talking about speaking impulsively, I was talking about speaking without concern for how certain people feel, or what they will do, and only being willing to get down to the brass tacks with them (if there is going to by any interaction at all).   I don't see any reason to be generous and forgiving in the way Roberts' describes; it doesn't matter to me how hard the feelings are or how deep the divisions go.    I think that is bad advice because it rewards the bully, and encourages him/them to do it again and again, knowing that the opposition with chicken-out in end in the name of civility.  So, unlike Steve, I'm not optimizing for peace.   (That's a fine thing for him to optimize for, but that's him.)   It reminds me of what Christopher Hitchens' said a decade ago about a possible advanced agenda of Christian conservatives:  "It wouldn't last very long and would, I hope, lead to civil war, which they will lose, but for which it would be a great pleasure to take part."

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Nick Thompson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:11:26 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

Dear Marcus, Owen

 

Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, in caloris veritas.  It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of the moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth about anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying. 

 

Hey Frank; did I get the Latin right? 

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:21 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Owen,

 

On several occasions over the years, I have been advised by `neural third parties' that the content of my writing can be edgy, but that in person I'm "Not that way" or "He's fine."   Now, some people think that in-person interactions are more representative of a person's character.   That if we just get in front of one another and _see_ the others' feelings, all conflict will be resolved.  No.  I would suggest Roberts' (Friedman, and other popular writers) preoccupation with civility is mistaken.   Civility may keep people from killing each other, temporarily, but it certainly isn't informative.  It is just the application of social skill, and this is not the same thing as listening, thinking, or being honest in debate.  It is a weak facilitator.  The problem with the current situation is that one side is just dishonest.  In the ternary world of politics, the `don't care' folks are in the crossfire, and that is appropriate.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:04:42 PM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Medium, my current outlet of choice, has an interesting "story" (Medium deals in Stories, not Tech nor Politics nor ...). It echos a lot of what we've been dealing with.

   

https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned-upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5

 

Somewhat dark, but awfully close to home.

 

   -- Owen

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[gepr]

Cautionary tales are nothing to be afraid of.  I think this is something completely misunderstood by people who don't watch enough horror movies.  You don't watch The Walking Dead and think "Don't open that door!  Don't open the door!!!!"  You watch it and *know* that if you were there, you'd open the door, too.  The trick is how you would do it and what it means to do it.


On 09/14/2017 01:27 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
> Have any of you been watching the t.v. Hulu series of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale"?  I read it three decades ago and it is spooking me out once more because the understory is the normalization of a subversive societal move toward a dystopian fascist state. It's promoted as science fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch.  Women in the new society, of course, get the worst of it.  Duh.

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Merle writes:

"It's promoted as science fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch."

Yup, Yvonne Strahovski (the evil wife -- also was on Dexter) needs her own series where she redeems herself by disappearing more bad guys.

Sense8 gets points as a metaphor for the threat of the nationalists.   Meh. That Walking Dead stuff is for the red state audience.  

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 2:27 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Have any of you been watching the t.v. Hulu series of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale"?  I read it three decades ago and it is spooking me out once more because the understory is the normalization of a subversive societal move toward a dystopian fascist state. It's promoted as science fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch.  Women in the new society, of course, get the worst of it.  Duh.

 

 

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

Glen goes, "Other than Trump and the last dying gasps of the traits that got him elected, the rest of us believe the country was (and kinda still is) on a very good track!"

I wish I could be that optimistic. The Republicans have managed to get control of the majority of state governments, which let them gerrymander the districts in 2010. If they keep that control, they will continue with the gerrymandering.  Between gerrymandering and the electoral college, it will be tough to get them out of power.  Unfortunately, technology will not solve global warming and the increased pollution Trump has unleashed. It won't solve healthcare. It won't solve voter suppression. It won't solve troglodyte courts.  It won't solve increasing inequality. No matter how good our technology gets, we can't ignore the damage government can do when controlled by the sort of people who have grabbed power -- and are doing their best to arrange things so that they keep it.  I wish I could be more optimistic about the future of the country, but I'm not.

I'll tell you one other thing I'm not proud of in myself. I've been so angry at Republicans that I have had no sympathy for the people in Florida and Texas. I even know that most of the people who are hurt the most are probably Democrats. Still I can't seem to find any empathy for those states as such.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 12:39 PM Merle Lefkoff <[hidden email]> wrote:

Stuff like--maybe revolution?

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 10:32 AM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Russ writes:

"I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond that."

Yeah, time for lawyers, boycotts, and stuff like that.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Russ Abbott <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 10:25:43 AM

To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Now that I've actually read the article I wouldn't change what I wrote, but I'd like to add a brief comment.

I agree with Roberts that "it’s been a long time since I felt the thinness of the veneer of civilization and our vulnerability to a sequence of events that might threaten not just the policy positions I might favor but the very existence of the American experiment."

But I disagree with Roberts that the problem is as symmetric as he makes it out. (That was Marcus's point.)  He gives an example of Trump lying followed by the press fact checking him. That's followed by Trump supporters concluding that the press is unfair and Trump opponents becoming even more convinced that Trump is a lying buffoon. I agree that that all happens. (On Google+ where I post a lot, I often make that point when someone posts a clear example of Trump's hying and hypocrisy. I say exactly what Roberts said: that identifying yet more example of Trump's dishonest won't convince anyone on either side. So perhaps we should get beyond that.)  But as I said, it's not symmetric. When Trump lies yet another time, it is the media's job to fact check him. (Roberts agrees with that.) Then what? Trump and his supporters then attack the media. That's not part of our political norms. When a politician is fact-checked we expect the politician to respond honestly and his supporters to do likewise. The fact that the Trump side continually breaks norms cannot be blamed on the Trump opponents. Unfortunately Roberts is too committed to the conservative side to be honest about that. His piece would have been a lot better if he had.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 9:10 AM Russ Abbott <[hidden email]> wrote:

There was a good TED talk by two women who remained friends even though they differed significantly politically. It's important, I believe, to be able to stay friends -- or at remain on civil terms -- with people we disagree with.  However, I think that Marcus is right that in certain situations that's not the most important issue. As he said, politics today -- and for the past 2 decades or so -- has not been symmetric. One side, for the most part, has lived by the norm of wanting to remain on civil terms with the other side; the other side, has taken as its priority to grab as much power as possible without regard to anything else. Civil relations be damned. When an aggressor country invades a peaceful neighbor the priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to survive and repel the invasion. When a psychopath attacks you, one's priority is not to stay on civil terms; it's to defend oneself against the attack. I'm sure there there are honest and civilized conservatives -- for example Ross Douthat of the NYT -- but so many of them don't care about remaining on civil terms. Their priority is to steal as much as possible in any way possible. When Obama nominated Garland and McConnell refused to hold hearings, Obama and Garland stayed on civil terms with McConnell. That didn't make peace or move any useful process forward. In that case it's not clear what else could have been done, but striving for civility in the face of rampant aggression and evil makes no sense. That's why no society can survive without some sort of norm enforcement mechanism, e.g., police, social disapproval, etc. Civility does not solve every problem.

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 8:40 AM Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Nick writes:

"Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, in caloris veritas. 

It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of the moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth about anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying."

That's a plausible assertion if the topic is about the social properties of the group.   I don't see why it is plausible if the topic is some completely different thing, say, like how an engine works, or the diplomatic conditions in North Korea.  But I wasn't talking about speaking impulsively, I was talking about speaking without concern for how certain people feel, or what they will do, and only being willing to get down to the brass tacks with them (if there is going to by any interaction at all).   I don't see any reason to be generous and forgiving in the way Roberts' describes; it doesn't matter to me how hard the feelings are or how deep the divisions go.    I think that is bad advice because it rewards the bully, and encourages him/them to do it again and again, knowing that the opposition with chicken-out in end in the name of civility.  So, unlike Steve, I'm not optimizing for peace.   (That's a fine thing for him to optimize for, but that's him.)   It reminds me of what Christopher Hitchens' said a decade ago about a possible advanced agenda of Christian conservatives:  "It wouldn't last very long and would, I hope, lead to civil war, which they will lose, but for which it would be a great pleasure to take part."

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Nick Thompson <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 9:11:26 AM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'

Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

Dear Marcus, Owen

 

Allow me to heckle, if you will.  Marcus, your post exemplifies a theory of human nature which is summarized by the motto, in caloris veritas.  It is the idea that we speak the truth when we speak in the heat of the moment.  Trump is a wonderful demonstration of the weakness of this theory: he always speaks impulsively, but never manages to speak the truth about anything.  I think it’s equally plausible to assert that we come closest to the truth of any matter when we speak with the keenest awareness of the social consequences of what we are saying. 

 

Hey Frank; did I get the Latin right? 

 

Nick

 

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

 

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 12:21 AM
To: Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Owen,

 

On several occasions over the years, I have been advised by `neural third parties' that the content of my writing can be edgy, but that in person I'm "Not that way" or "He's fine."   Now, some people think that in-person interactions are more representative of a person's character.   That if we just get in front of one another and _see_ the others' feelings, all conflict will be resolved.  No.  I would suggest Roberts' (Friedman, and other popular writers) preoccupation with civility is mistaken.   Civility may keep people from killing each other, temporarily, but it certainly isn't informative.  It is just the application of social skill, and this is not the same thing as listening, thinking, or being honest in debate.  It is a weak facilitator.  The problem with the current situation is that one side is just dishonest.  In the ternary world of politics, the `don't care' folks are in the crossfire, and that is appropriate.

 

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Owen Densmore <[hidden email]>
Sent: Wednesday, September 13, 2017 9:04:42 PM
To: Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Medium, my current outlet of choice, has an interesting "story" (Medium deals in Stories, not Tech nor Politics nor ...). It echos a lot of what we've been dealing with.

   

https://medium.com/@russroberts/the-world-turned-upside-down-and-what-to-do-about-it-2dc27d1cf5f5

 

Somewhat dark, but awfully close to home.

 

   -- Owen

 

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

--

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[gepr]

Nah.  I prefer the relatively common metaphor of the zombie as a typical shambling idiot who is dangerous precisely because he doesn't think and can infect you with his lack of thought.  Typical red state voters *are* the zombies.  The Walking Dead, as a TV show, is about how those of us who aren't brain dead a) handle the brain dead and b) how we deal with each other and our own despondency at being surrounded by brain dead citizens.  Will the progressives survive with their humanity intact?  Or will they be infected by fear and populism?

Renee' really likes Sense8.  But I'm more into Orphan Black and Mr. Robot.  I tried to get into The Man in the High Castle.  But it was just too visually dark and claustrophobic.  I plan to try again at some point, though.  The Handmaid's Tale is on the list.  I enjoyed the witch season of American Horror Story, but not the others.  I can't yet watch "Cult", which is supposed to be interesting.


On 09/14/2017 02:27 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> That Walking Dead stuff is for the red state audience.  

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Marcus G. Daniels]

"I prefer the relatively common metaphor of the zombie as a typical shambling idiot who is dangerous precisely because he doesn't think and can infect you with his lack of thought.  Typical red state voters *are* the zombies."

And here I thought the zombies were the brown-skinned immigrants coming to take away the white people's jobs, destroy their culture, and steal their statues.  What do I know!

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of gⅼеɳ ☣ <[hidden email]>
Sent: Thursday, September 14, 2017 3:44:02 PM
To: FriAM
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

Nah.  I prefer the relatively common metaphor of the zombie as a typical shambling idiot who is dangerous precisely because he doesn't think and can infect you with his lack of thought.  Typical red state voters *are* the zombies.  The Walking Dead, as a TV show, is about how those of us who aren't brain dead a) handle the brain dead and b) how we deal with each other and our own despondency at being surrounded by brain dead citizens.  Will the progressives survive with their humanity intact?  Or will they be infected by fear and populism?

Renee' really likes Sense8.  But I'm more into Orphan Black and Mr. Robot.  I tried to get into The Man in the High Castle.  But it was just too visually dark and claustrophobic.  I plan to try again at some point, though.  The Handmaid's Tale is on the list.  I enjoyed the witch season of American Horror Story, but not the others.  I can't yet watch "Cult", which is supposed to be interesting.


On 09/14/2017 02:27 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> That Walking Dead stuff is for the red state audience. 

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[gepr]

Nope.  However, it's important to realize that the metaphors of the shambling zombies (Romero's and The Walking Dead's) are substantively different from those metaphors of the fast-moving zombies, especially the ones that learn to think and can sometimes be cured (Helix, Resident Evil, Z, Game of Thrones, etc.).

On 09/14/2017 02:46 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> And here I thought the zombies were the brown-skinned immigrants coming to take away the white people's jobs, destroy their culture, and steal their statues.  What do I know!

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Roger Critchlow-2]

Hmm, my NPR station was talking about how Myanmar is committed to the lie that there is no Rohingya minority to be persecuted, only illegal Bengali immigrants who are being deported back to Bangladesh, this despite historical evidence that the earliest Bengali settlements began in the 15th century and most of the population centers were established in the 17th century.  Hence we have a Nobel Peace Prize recipient presiding over a government pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing under the guise of immigration reform.

So I don't think I really care if the Trumpistas think he's being persecuted.  He deserves to be persecuted for being such a liar on questions of life or death.

-- rec --

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 4:36 PM, gⅼеɳ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Cautionary tales are nothing to be afraid of.  I think this is something completely misunderstood by people who don't watch enough horror movies.  You don't watch The Walking Dead and think "Don't open that door!  Don't open the door!!!!"  You watch it and *know* that if you were there, you'd open the door, too.  The trick is how you would do it and what it means to do it.


On 09/14/2017 01:27 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
> Have any of you been watching the t.v. Hulu series of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale"?  I read it three decades ago and it is spooking me out once more because the understory is the normalization of a subversive societal move toward a dystopian fascist state. It's promoted as science fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch.  Women in the new society, of course, get the worst of it.  Duh.

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Steve Smith]

Right here in River City (well, mostly California, but throughout the US) the 1930's "Mexican Repatriation Act" deported on the order of 1-2M US Citizens because of their ethnicity (along with a smaller number of non-Citizens more recently immigrated from Mexico), qualifying for our modern definition of "ethnic cleansing". 

Kyi's Nobel prize is 15 years old.  Is she far enough out of touch with the realities of her country to not actually KNOW the difference between a pogrom being executed by her military/people and a "righteous" effort to deal with a real terrorist problem?   No reason to believe a Nobel prize magically puts you above such behaviours I guess!

On 9/14/17 6:42 PM, Roger Critchlow wrote:

Hmm, my NPR station was talking about how Myanmar is committed to the lie that there is no Rohingya minority to be persecuted, only illegal Bengali immigrants who are being deported back to Bangladesh, this despite historical evidence that the earliest Bengali settlements began in the 15th century and most of the population centers were established in the 17th century.  Hence we have a Nobel Peace Prize recipient presiding over a government pursuing a policy of ethnic cleansing under the guise of immigration reform.

So I don't think I really care if the Trumpistas think he's being persecuted.  He deserves to be persecuted for being such a liar on questions of life or death.

-- rec --

On Thu, Sep 14, 2017 at 4:36 PM, gⅼеɳ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

Cautionary tales are nothing to be afraid of.  I think this is something completely misunderstood by people who don't watch enough horror movies.  You don't watch The Walking Dead and think "Don't open that door!  Don't open the door!!!!"  You watch it and *know* that if you were there, you'd open the door, too.  The trick is how you would do it and what it means to do it.


On 09/14/2017 01:27 PM, Merle Lefkoff wrote:
> Have any of you been watching the t.v. Hulu series of Margaret Atwood's "The Handmaid's Tale"?  I read it three decades ago and it is spooking me out once more because the understory is the normalization of a subversive societal move toward a dystopian fascist state. It's promoted as science fiction, but it's very real and beware-- incredibly hard to watch.  Women in the new society, of course, get the worst of it.  Duh.

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[gepr]

But did the Mexican Repatriation also include things like rape, burning villages, and indiscriminant execution?  I can imagine it did, but would rather not believe it.

It's still so jarring to me, given the cultural appropriation of Buddhism in Western developed countries, to hear phrases like "nationalist Buddhists" and such.  With Israel, I grew up with the contradiction of the Jews I knew, who were entirely kind and intellectual, versus those confiscating land from Arabs.  So, I've been exposed to that dissonance all my life.  But my only exposure to Buddhism as a kid was through my CCD teacher, who probably had a *very* stilted understanding.

On 09/14/2017 06:31 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> Right here in River City (well, mostly California, but throughout the US) the 1930's "Mexican Repatriation Act" deported on the order of 1-2M US Citizens because of their ethnicity (along with a smaller number of non-Citizens more recently immigrated from Mexico), qualifying for our modern definition of "ethnic cleansing".

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Roger Critchlow-2]

The lies that bind political coalitions together, the art of the possible fiction which might be brought to horrible life, ...

-- rec --

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:41 PM, gⅼеɳ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

But did the Mexican Repatriation also include things like rape, burning villages, and indiscriminant execution?  I can imagine it did, but would rather not believe it.

It's still so jarring to me, given the cultural appropriation of Buddhism in Western developed countries, to hear phrases like "nationalist Buddhists" and such.  With Israel, I grew up with the contradiction of the Jews I knew, who were entirely kind and intellectual, versus those confiscating land from Arabs.  So, I've been exposed to that dissonance all my life.  But my only exposure to Buddhism as a kid was through my CCD teacher, who probably had a *very* stilted understanding.

On 09/14/2017 06:31 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> Right here in River City (well, mostly California, but throughout the US) the 1930's "Mexican Repatriation Act" deported on the order of 1-2M US Citizens because of their ethnicity (along with a smaller number of non-Citizens more recently immigrated from Mexico), qualifying for our modern definition of "ethnic cleansing".

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Roger writes:

"The lies that bind political coalitions together, the art of the possible fiction which might be brought to horrible life, ... "

It is ugly, but it is irresponsible to pretend it could be otherwise.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 11:15:50 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

The lies that bind political coalitions together, the art of the possible fiction which might be brought to horrible life, ...

-- rec --

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:41 PM, gⅼеɳ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

But did the Mexican Repatriation also include things like rape, burning villages, and indiscriminant execution?  I can imagine it did, but would rather not believe it.

It's still so jarring to me, given the cultural appropriation of Buddhism in Western developed countries, to hear phrases like "nationalist Buddhists" and such.  With Israel, I grew up with the contradiction of the Jews I knew, who were entirely kind and intellectual, versus those confiscating land from Arabs.  So, I've been exposed to that dissonance all my life.  But my only exposure to Buddhism as a kid was through my CCD teacher, who probably had a *very* stilted understanding.

On 09/14/2017 06:31 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> Right here in River City (well, mostly California, but throughout the US) the 1930's "Mexican Repatriation Act" deported on the order of 1-2M US Citizens because of their ethnicity (along with a smaller number of non-Citizens more recently immigrated from Mexico), qualifying for our modern definition of "ethnic cleansing".

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Roger Critchlow-2]

I guess the point is that politicians are guaranteed to try these lies out, to the limit that their consciences (assuming there is one) allow, so you have to keep shouting back at them that they lie, not only is it a lie, it's a horrible lie which hurts these people this way and you should be ashamed for saying it.

In the Peircian ecology of political ideas, the electorate (or someone) must act as the conscience of politics, the politician flails around trying to move the world away from the horrible things that already exist, and the electorate tries to keep us from moving to places where even more horrible things live.

But the further point I'm seeing is that you can't just stand there saying:  "Liar".  You have to call out the lie and explain why the lie is a horrible lie, one that will shame everyone who allows it to be repeated and acted upon, and that it should never have been spoken in the first place, and should never be spoken again.

But most of Trump's lies are too puerile to deserve that kind of response, they deserve extended ridicule rather than righteous condemnation.

-- rec --

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Roger writes:

"The lies that bind political coalitions together, the art of the possible fiction which might be brought to horrible life, ... "

It is ugly, but it is irresponsible to pretend it could be otherwise.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 11:15:50 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

The lies that bind political coalitions together, the art of the possible fiction which might be brought to horrible life, ...

-- rec --

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:41 PM, gⅼеɳ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

But did the Mexican Repatriation also include things like rape, burning villages, and indiscriminant execution?  I can imagine it did, but would rather not believe it.

It's still so jarring to me, given the cultural appropriation of Buddhism in Western developed countries, to hear phrases like "nationalist Buddhists" and such.  With Israel, I grew up with the contradiction of the Jews I knew, who were entirely kind and intellectual, versus those confiscating land from Arabs.  So, I've been exposed to that dissonance all my life.  But my only exposure to Buddhism as a kid was through my CCD teacher, who probably had a *very* stilted understanding.

On 09/14/2017 06:31 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> Right here in River City (well, mostly California, but throughout the US) the 1930's "Mexican Repatriation Act" deported on the order of 1-2M US Citizens because of their ethnicity (along with a smaller number of non-Citizens more recently immigrated from Mexico), qualifying for our modern definition of "ethnic cleansing".

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[Marcus G. Daniels]

Roger writes:

"In the Peircian ecology of political ideas, the electorate (or someone) must act as the conscience of politics, the politician flails around trying to move the world away from the horrible things that already exist, and the electorate tries to keep us from moving to places where even more horrible things live."

I wonder if a Trump-like candidate bot could be built using a genetic program and some natural language processing code.   One could follow Breitbart or similar outlets to form a corpus of phrases.  Then the GP would tweak the diagram and words in the sentence and post it to Twitter.   It would keep the sentences that got Likes and throw away the sentences that did not, and continue its evolution.   That's the whole world view as far as I can tell.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 6:09:06 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

I guess the point is that politicians are guaranteed to try these lies out, to the limit that their consciences (assuming there is one) allow, so you have to keep shouting back at them that they lie, not only is it a lie, it's a horrible lie which hurts these people this way and you should be ashamed for saying it.

In the Peircian ecology of political ideas, the electorate (or someone) must act as the conscience of politics, the politician flails around trying to move the world away from the horrible things that already exist, and the electorate tries to keep us from moving to places where even more horrible things live.

But the further point I'm seeing is that you can't just stand there saying:  "Liar".  You have to call out the lie and explain why the lie is a horrible lie, one that will shame everyone who allows it to be repeated and acted upon, and that it should never have been spoken in the first place, and should never be spoken again.

But most of Trump's lies are too puerile to deserve that kind of response, they deserve extended ridicule rather than righteous condemnation.

-- rec --

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:

Roger writes:

"The lies that bind political coalitions together, the art of the possible fiction which might be brought to horrible life, ... "

It is ugly, but it is irresponsible to pretend it could be otherwise.

Marcus

---

From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]>
Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 11:15:50 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)

 

The lies that bind political coalitions together, the art of the possible fiction which might be brought to horrible life, ...

-- rec --

On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:41 PM, gⅼеɳ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:

But did the Mexican Repatriation also include things like rape, burning villages, and indiscriminant execution?  I can imagine it did, but would rather not believe it.

It's still so jarring to me, given the cultural appropriation of Buddhism in Western developed countries, to hear phrases like "nationalist Buddhists" and such.  With Israel, I grew up with the contradiction of the Jews I knew, who were entirely kind and intellectual, versus those confiscating land from Arabs.  So, I've been exposed to that dissonance all my life.  But my only exposure to Buddhism as a kid was through my CCD teacher, who probably had a *very* stilted understanding.

On 09/14/2017 06:31 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> Right here in River City (well, mostly California, but throughout the US) the 1930's "Mexican Repatriation Act" deported on the order of 1-2M US Citizens because of their ethnicity (along with a smaller number of non-Citizens more recently immigrated from Mexico), qualifying for our modern definition of "ethnic cleansing".

--
☣ gⅼеɳ

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

[David Eric Smith]

There may be collaborators who would be eager to help in such a project:

http://kingjamesprogramming.tumblr.com/

Eric

> On Sep 15, 2017, at 8:49 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
>
> I wonder if a Trump-like candidate bot could be built using a genetic program and some natural language processing code.   One could follow Breitbart or similar outlets to form a corpus of phrases.  Then the GP would tweak the diagram and words in the sentence and post it to Twitter.   It would keep the sentences that got Likes and throw away the sentences that did not, and continue its evolution.   That's the whole world view as far as I can tell.
>
> Marcus
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 6:09:06 PM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)
>  
> I guess the point is that politicians are guaranteed to try these lies out, to the limit that their consciences (assuming there is one) allow, so you have to keep shouting back at them that they lie, not only is it a lie, it's a horrible lie which hurts these people this way and you should be ashamed for saying it.
>
> In the Peircian ecology of political ideas, the electorate (or someone) must act as the conscience of politics, the politician flails around trying to move the world away from the horrible things that already exist, and the electorate tries to keep us from moving to places where even more horrible things live.
>
> But the further point I'm seeing is that you can't just stand there saying:  "Liar".  You have to call out the lie and explain why the lie is a horrible lie, one that will shame everyone who allows it to be repeated and acted upon, and that it should never have been spoken in the first place, and should never be spoken again.
>
> But most of Trump's lies are too puerile to deserve that kind of response, they deserve extended ridicule rather than righteous condemnation.
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 2:04 PM, Marcus Daniels <[hidden email]> wrote:
> Roger writes:
>
> "The lies that bind political coalitions together, the art of the possible fiction which might be brought to horrible life, ... "
>
> It is ugly, but it is irresponsible to pretend it could be otherwise.
>
> Marcus
> From: Friam <[hidden email]> on behalf of Roger Critchlow <[hidden email]>
> Sent: Friday, September 15, 2017 11:15:50 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The World Turned Upside Down (and what to do about it)
>  
> The lies that bind political coalitions together, the art of the possible fiction which might be brought to horrible life, ...
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Fri, Sep 15, 2017 at 12:41 PM, gⅼеɳ ☣ <[hidden email]> wrote:
> But did the Mexican Repatriation also include things like rape, burning villages, and indiscriminant execution?  I can imagine it did, but would rather not believe it.
>
> It's still so jarring to me, given the cultural appropriation of Buddhism in Western developed countries, to hear phrases like "nationalist Buddhists" and such.  With Israel, I grew up with the contradiction of the Jews I knew, who were entirely kind and intellectual, versus those confiscating land from Arabs.  So, I've been exposed to that dissonance all my life.  But my only exposure to Buddhism as a kid was through my CCD teacher, who probably had a *very* stilted understanding.
>
> On 09/14/2017 06:31 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
> > Right here in River City (well, mostly California, but throughout the US) the 1930's "Mexican Repatriation Act" deported on the order of 1-2M US Citizens because of their ethnicity (along with a smaller number of non-Citizens more recently immigrated from Mexico), qualifying for our modern definition of "ethnic cleansing".
>
> --
> ☣ gⅼеɳ
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
>
> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove