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The Silence of the Lambs

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Douglas Roberts-2

The Silence of the Lambs

In the spirit of not hijacking threads, yet maintaining a bit of continuity from the last couple of conversations:

Well, I apparently was not clear:

1 - You are absolutely right about the size of gvt, love the graph, thanks!

2 - Obama knows this and could still the silly argument by pointing it out.

3 - He remains oddly quiet.

4 - I find this worthy of blame.

---> At this point I would like to reiterate a comment which received no response in it's original thread, in which the complaint was also being made there that none of the community leaders were speaking out this another religious outrage. Here's the comment which garnered no response:

Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups in that religion.

Maybe it would be easier for people to respond if this comment were turned into a question:

So, why is it that the leaders of the Catholic community have largely remained largely silent in the wake of repeated revaluations of rampant child sex abuse in their church?

No, the use of "rampant" was not a pun. Child sex abuse is clearly, demonstrably, endemic to the Catholic way of life. Could it possibly be the requirement that Catholic priests be quote celibate end quote that is the reason for this?

Child sex abuse is a crime that should carry the death penalty, in my opinion. The act of child rape essentially ruins a victim's life. Yet, the Catholic church nearly always protects the guilty clergy member, stealthily moving him from parish to parish without ever warning his new "flock" of his deviant, harmful sexual predilections.

Why is it, then, that the leaders of the Catholic community have remained largely silent on this issue, except to occasionally lash out at those who dare to criticize their church?

---> End of new thread.

5 - But this is still fascinating, outside of the political sphere.

6 - Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: The Silence of the Lambs

I suppose subject line for this one could have been "Warning, anther turd in the pool".

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the spirit of not hijacking threads, yet maintaining a bit of continuity from the last couple of conversations:

Well, I apparently was not clear:
1 - You are absolutely right about the size of gvt, love the graph, thanks!

2 - Obama knows this and could still the silly argument by pointing it out.
3 - He remains oddly quiet.
4 - I find this worthy of blame.

---> At this point I would like to reiterate a comment which received no response in it's original thread, in which the complaint was also being made there that none of the community leaders were speaking out this another religious outrage. Here's the comment which garnered no response:

Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups in that religion.

Maybe it would be easier for people to respond if this comment were turned into a question:

So, why is it that the leaders of the Catholic community have largely remained largely silent in the wake of repeated revaluations of rampant child sex abuse in their church?

No, the use of "rampant" was not a pun. Child sex abuse is clearly, demonstrably, endemic to the Catholic way of life. Could it possibly be the requirement that Catholic priests be quote celibate end quote that is the reason for this?

Child sex abuse is a crime that should carry the death penalty, in my opinion. The act of child rape essentially ruins a victim's life. Yet, the Catholic church nearly always protects the guilty clergy member, stealthily moving him from parish to parish without ever warning his new "flock" of his deviant, harmful sexual predilections.

Why is it, then, that the leaders of the Catholic community have remained largely silent on this issue, except to occasionally lash out at those who dare to criticize their church?

---> End of new thread.

5 - But this is still fascinating, outside of the political sphere.
6 - Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Owen Densmore

Re: The Silence of the Lambs

Administrator

In reply to this post by Douglas Roberts-2

Sorry to be late responding .. we're getting ready for a trip to Italy for 6 weeks and boy, does that require a LOT of work!

As I understand it, you're pointing out that the catholic church was culpably silent on the child sex scandals. I TOTALLY agree!

I'd like to distinguish between organizations and the community. Although the organization failed as you say, the community did not. There was huge outcry by the members of the church against the culpable actions of the organization. Also, there was considerable outcry by the priests (as opposed to bishops etc.)

I've had several similar but less severe differences with the church. The local bishop, for example, sent a memo to all his staff and priests, and asked for it to be read at mass. I started telling my priest about this and he stopped me after the first words, with a vehement outburst about how the vast majority agreed with me. And they were later quite open about this.

What I have discovered about religion is that this organization vs community is important. All organizations out there: please raise your hand if you are perfect! I know a guy who had to raise his voice, via a web site, about the Bad and Ugly at LANL. I can point you to "liberal" groups within most organizations which do speak out and do have organizational leaders who do so as well.

The discussion on child abuse was so much discussed from the pulpit that I learned a great deal. One was a plea to protect homosexuals within the community, child abuse is orthogonal to homosexuality. Another was that the percentage of child abuse in various organizations (recently the NFL for example) is often the same degree and handled as badly.

Any way, I see your points and agree with them.

-- Owen

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the spirit of not hijacking threads, yet maintaining a bit of continuity from the last couple of conversations:

Well, I apparently was not clear:
1 - You are absolutely right about the size of gvt, love the graph, thanks!

2 - Obama knows this and could still the silly argument by pointing it out.
3 - He remains oddly quiet.
4 - I find this worthy of blame.

---> At this point I would like to reiterate a comment which received no response in it's original thread, in which the complaint was also being made there that none of the community leaders were speaking out this another religious outrage. Here's the comment which garnered no response:

Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups in that religion.

Maybe it would be easier for people to respond if this comment were turned into a question:

So, why is it that the leaders of the Catholic community have largely remained largely silent in the wake of repeated revaluations of rampant child sex abuse in their church?

No, the use of "rampant" was not a pun. Child sex abuse is clearly, demonstrably, endemic to the Catholic way of life. Could it possibly be the requirement that Catholic priests be quote celibate end quote that is the reason for this?

Child sex abuse is a crime that should carry the death penalty, in my opinion. The act of child rape essentially ruins a victim's life. Yet, the Catholic church nearly always protects the guilty clergy member, stealthily moving him from parish to parish without ever warning his new "flock" of his deviant, harmful sexual predilections.

Why is it, then, that the leaders of the Catholic community have remained largely silent on this issue, except to occasionally lash out at those who dare to criticize their church?

---> End of new thread.

5 - But this is still fascinating, outside of the political sphere.
6 - Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: The Silence of the Lambs

A thoughtful and well articulated response Owen, thanks.

We only appear to differ regarding your distinction between "Organization" and "Community". The way look at it is that if you voluntarily join an organization, you have become a part of it. Period. If you allow that organization to continue to fail a moral obligation, every member of that organization shares an equal part of the blame. There is no "them" and "us" in the Catholic church. There is you. Deal with your problems.

--Doug

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry to be late responding .. we're getting ready for a trip to Italy for 6 weeks and boy, does that require a LOT of work!

As I understand it, you're pointing out that the catholic church was culpably silent on the child sex scandals. I TOTALLY agree!

I'd like to distinguish between organizations and the community. Although the organization failed as you say, the community did not. There was huge outcry by the members of the church against the culpable actions of the organization. Also, there was considerable outcry by the priests (as opposed to bishops etc.)

I've had several similar but less severe differences with the church. The local bishop, for example, sent a memo to all his staff and priests, and asked for it to be read at mass. I started telling my priest about this and he stopped me after the first words, with a vehement outburst about how the vast majority agreed with me. And they were later quite open about this.

What I have discovered about religion is that this organization vs community is important. All organizations out there: please raise your hand if you are perfect! I know a guy who had to raise his voice, via a web site, about the Bad and Ugly at LANL. I can point you to "liberal" groups within most organizations which do speak out and do have organizational leaders who do so as well.

The discussion on child abuse was so much discussed from the pulpit that I learned a great deal. One was a plea to protect homosexuals within the community, child abuse is orthogonal to homosexuality. Another was that the percentage of child abuse in various organizations (recently the NFL for example) is often the same degree and handled as badly.

Any way, I see your points and agree with them.

-- Owen

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the spirit of not hijacking threads, yet maintaining a bit of continuity from the last couple of conversations:

Well, I apparently was not clear:
1 - You are absolutely right about the size of gvt, love the graph, thanks!

2 - Obama knows this and could still the silly argument by pointing it out.
3 - He remains oddly quiet.
4 - I find this worthy of blame.

---> At this point I would like to reiterate a comment which received no response in it's original thread, in which the complaint was also being made there that none of the community leaders were speaking out this another religious outrage. Here's the comment which garnered no response:

Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups in that religion.

Maybe it would be easier for people to respond if this comment were turned into a question:

So, why is it that the leaders of the Catholic community have largely remained largely silent in the wake of repeated revaluations of rampant child sex abuse in their church?

No, the use of "rampant" was not a pun. Child sex abuse is clearly, demonstrably, endemic to the Catholic way of life. Could it possibly be the requirement that Catholic priests be quote celibate end quote that is the reason for this?

Child sex abuse is a crime that should carry the death penalty, in my opinion. The act of child rape essentially ruins a victim's life. Yet, the Catholic church nearly always protects the guilty clergy member, stealthily moving him from parish to parish without ever warning his new "flock" of his deviant, harmful sexual predilections.

Why is it, then, that the leaders of the Catholic community have remained largely silent on this issue, except to occasionally lash out at those who dare to criticize their church?

---> End of new thread.

5 - But this is still fascinating, outside of the political sphere.
6 - Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

Owen Densmore

Re: The Silence of the Lambs

Administrator

So you bought into the USA "organization"?

You pay taxes that kill people, that fight wars you detest.

This may seem absurd, but I have kept a passport valid over the years since I realized I don't buy completely into the USA organization. I may find I have to leave.

At least the church has come out vocally against all wars.

.. and I'd prefer we carry on over a beer, not over bits!

-- Owen

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

A thoughtful and well articulated response Owen, thanks.

We only appear to differ regarding your distinction between "Organization" and "Community". The way look at it is that if you voluntarily join an organization, you have become a part of it. Period. If you allow that organization to continue to fail a moral obligation, every member of that organization shares an equal part of the blame. There is no "them" and "us" in the Catholic church. There is you. Deal with your problems.

--Doug

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry to be late responding .. we're getting ready for a trip to Italy for 6 weeks and boy, does that require a LOT of work!

As I understand it, you're pointing out that the catholic church was culpably silent on the child sex scandals. I TOTALLY agree!

I'd like to distinguish between organizations and the community. Although the organization failed as you say, the community did not. There was huge outcry by the members of the church against the culpable actions of the organization. Also, there was considerable outcry by the priests (as opposed to bishops etc.)

I've had several similar but less severe differences with the church. The local bishop, for example, sent a memo to all his staff and priests, and asked for it to be read at mass. I started telling my priest about this and he stopped me after the first words, with a vehement outburst about how the vast majority agreed with me. And they were later quite open about this.

What I have discovered about religion is that this organization vs community is important. All organizations out there: please raise your hand if you are perfect! I know a guy who had to raise his voice, via a web site, about the Bad and Ugly at LANL. I can point you to "liberal" groups within most organizations which do speak out and do have organizational leaders who do so as well.

The discussion on child abuse was so much discussed from the pulpit that I learned a great deal. One was a plea to protect homosexuals within the community, child abuse is orthogonal to homosexuality. Another was that the percentage of child abuse in various organizations (recently the NFL for example) is often the same degree and handled as badly.

Any way, I see your points and agree with them.

-- Owen

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the spirit of not hijacking threads, yet maintaining a bit of continuity from the last couple of conversations:

Well, I apparently was not clear:
1 - You are absolutely right about the size of gvt, love the graph, thanks!

2 - Obama knows this and could still the silly argument by pointing it out.
3 - He remains oddly quiet.
4 - I find this worthy of blame.

---> At this point I would like to reiterate a comment which received no response in it's original thread, in which the complaint was also being made there that none of the community leaders were speaking out this another religious outrage. Here's the comment which garnered no response:

Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups in that religion.

Maybe it would be easier for people to respond if this comment were turned into a question:

So, why is it that the leaders of the Catholic community have largely remained largely silent in the wake of repeated revaluations of rampant child sex abuse in their church?

No, the use of "rampant" was not a pun. Child sex abuse is clearly, demonstrably, endemic to the Catholic way of life. Could it possibly be the requirement that Catholic priests be quote celibate end quote that is the reason for this?

Child sex abuse is a crime that should carry the death penalty, in my opinion. The act of child rape essentially ruins a victim's life. Yet, the Catholic church nearly always protects the guilty clergy member, stealthily moving him from parish to parish without ever warning his new "flock" of his deviant, harmful sexual predilections.

Why is it, then, that the leaders of the Catholic community have remained largely silent on this issue, except to occasionally lash out at those who dare to criticize their church?

---> End of new thread.

5 - But this is still fascinating, outside of the political sphere.
6 - Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

Douglas Roberts-2

Re: The Silence of the Lambs

True, my citizenship is American. Not exactly the same as voluntarily joining an organization, but close enough for the sake of this discussion. However I don't make excuses for America. Nor am I silent about criticizing it's weaknesses, which I believe is the point you were complaining about on the past three FRIAM threads.

--Doug

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 1:28 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

So you bought into the USA "organization"?

You pay taxes that kill people, that fight wars you detest.

This may seem absurd, but I have kept a passport valid over the years since I realized I don't buy completely into the USA organization. I may find I have to leave.

At least the church has come out vocally against all wars.

.. and I'd prefer we carry on over a beer, not over bits!

-- Owen

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:56 PM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:
A thoughtful and well articulated response Owen, thanks.

We only appear to differ regarding your distinction between "Organization" and "Community". The way look at it is that if you voluntarily join an organization, you have become a part of it. Period. If you allow that organization to continue to fail a moral obligation, every member of that organization shares an equal part of the blame. There is no "them" and "us" in the Catholic church. There is you. Deal with your problems.

--Doug

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 12:05 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

Sorry to be late responding .. we're getting ready for a trip to Italy for 6 weeks and boy, does that require a LOT of work!

As I understand it, you're pointing out that the catholic church was culpably silent on the child sex scandals. I TOTALLY agree!

I'd like to distinguish between organizations and the community. Although the organization failed as you say, the community did not. There was huge outcry by the members of the church against the culpable actions of the organization. Also, there was considerable outcry by the priests (as opposed to bishops etc.)

I've had several similar but less severe differences with the church. The local bishop, for example, sent a memo to all his staff and priests, and asked for it to be read at mass. I started telling my priest about this and he stopped me after the first words, with a vehement outburst about how the vast majority agreed with me. And they were later quite open about this.

What I have discovered about religion is that this organization vs community is important. All organizations out there: please raise your hand if you are perfect! I know a guy who had to raise his voice, via a web site, about the Bad and Ugly at LANL. I can point you to "liberal" groups within most organizations which do speak out and do have organizational leaders who do so as well.

The discussion on child abuse was so much discussed from the pulpit that I learned a great deal. One was a plea to protect homosexuals within the community, child abuse is orthogonal to homosexuality. Another was that the percentage of child abuse in various organizations (recently the NFL for example) is often the same degree and handled as badly.

Any way, I see your points and agree with them.

-- Owen

On Sat, Sep 15, 2012 at 10:52 AM, Douglas Roberts <[hidden email]> wrote:

In the spirit of not hijacking threads, yet maintaining a bit of continuity from the last couple of conversations:

Well, I apparently was not clear:
1 - You are absolutely right about the size of gvt, love the graph, thanks!

2 - Obama knows this and could still the silly argument by pointing it out.
3 - He remains oddly quiet.
4 - I find this worthy of blame.

---> At this point I would like to reiterate a comment which received no response in it's original thread, in which the complaint was also being made there that none of the community leaders were speaking out this another religious outrage. Here's the comment which garnered no response:

Of course, Owen, we could be asking the same thing about the "good" Catholic community regarding all the years of child sex abuse and coverups in that religion.

Maybe it would be easier for people to respond if this comment were turned into a question:

So, why is it that the leaders of the Catholic community have largely remained largely silent in the wake of repeated revaluations of rampant child sex abuse in their church?

No, the use of "rampant" was not a pun. Child sex abuse is clearly, demonstrably, endemic to the Catholic way of life. Could it possibly be the requirement that Catholic priests be quote celibate end quote that is the reason for this?

Child sex abuse is a crime that should carry the death penalty, in my opinion. The act of child rape essentially ruins a victim's life. Yet, the Catholic church nearly always protects the guilty clergy member, stealthily moving him from parish to parish without ever warning his new "flock" of his deviant, harmful sexual predilections.

Why is it, then, that the leaders of the Catholic community have remained largely silent on this issue, except to occasionally lash out at those who dare to criticize their church?

---> End of new thread.

5 - But this is still fascinating, outside of the political sphere.
6 - Sorry if I hijacked the thread.

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

<a href="tel:505-455-7333" value="+15054557333" target="_blank">505-455-7333 - Office
<a href="tel:505-670-8195" value="+15056708195" target="_blank">505-670-8195 - Cell

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

--
Doug Roberts
[hidden email]
[hidden email]

http://parrot-farm.net/Second-Cousins

505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell