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The Sign Game

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Nick Thompson

The Sign Game

Dear Members of the Local Congregation,

There will be a short quiz tomorrow. (};-)] Please see attached.

Nick

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TheSignGame.docx (19K) Download Attachment

cody dooderson

Re: The Sign Game

I am a total newbie to the sign game. What is considered a correct answer?

I took a stab at the first question. What do you think?

When a male robin enters the territorial male robin’s territory, the owner will display,

sing, and approach the intruder. Experiments show that any tuft of red cotton mounted

on brown wires will suffice to elicit this response.

I would say the (S)ign is: A red fuzzy thing

(O)bject: A male robin

(I)nterpretant: Male robins are usually red fuzzy things.

Cody Smith

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Members of the Local Congregation,

There will be a short quiz tomorrow. (};-)] Please see attached.

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The Sign Game

Thanks, Cody,

I don’t think anybody is very good at this game. My whole project here is to study people’s responses and see if I can develop some rules for it.

Your response is helpful. The hardest part of the game is identifying the last term, the “interpretant”. I am not sure a person or an organism is a proper term to fill into that slot, although many, many people will fill in people organisms there. I think the “proper” term is more like the question that the person or organism brings to the situation. So, in some sense, a territorial male robin is constantly asking himself about the objects in his territory, “Is this thing another bird; if so, is it a robin; if so, is it a male robin? So, I would say that the “interpretant” is the dimension of inquiry with which the territorial male robin approaches the objects in his territory, not the territorial male robin himself.

But if I really knew, I wouldn’t be asking the question.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of cody dooderson
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 9:41 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Sign Game

I am a total newbie to the sign game. What is considered a correct answer?

I took a stab at the first question. What do you think?

When a male robin enters the territorial male robin’s territory, the owner will display,

sing, and approach the intruder. Experiments show that any tuft of red cotton mounted

on brown wires will suffice to elicit this response.

I would say the (S)ign is: A red fuzzy thing

(O)bject: A male robin

(I)nterpretant: Male robins are usually red fuzzy things.

Cody Smith

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Members of the Local Congregation,

There will be a short quiz tomorrow. (};-)] Please see attached.

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: The Sign Game

Nick and Cody,

Cody exposed a chink in the problem. The object is not the beginning of the issue it is

the Robin’s mind that imparts the response in particular the male robin’s brain.

When the Brain connects a visual stimulus with a comparison pattern in storage, a certain threshold

initiates an entire array of physical responses. If the stimulus remains fixed the male will beat himself to death

upon meeting his own reflection. The object only acquires a status once observed.

Cody knows the fuzz is fuzz but the Robin’s knowledge is more immediate and perhaps based on a fixed neural algorithm

Knowledge makes a difference.

I raised hunting dogs for years and observed that Borzois attack anything that is moving quickly. And lose interest when the object

stops. Then they just walk around looking for something new.

The brains are the culprit, they give the object some meaning deservedly or not. Larger Brains have the luxury of choosing from a multiple

of choices.

So the brain’s basic structure initiates responses without cognition, the act of choosing

may be a mark of higher intelligence,

perhaps the reason we fail is that few people know their own minds. But we are aware of our actions.

This is hauntingly like a recursion problem where one part of the brain is required to monitor another part while it is working and before the body moves.

Then it must connect a complex brain activity with the reality of an automobile accident.

vib

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: November-18-16 3:19 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Sign Game

Thanks, Cody,

I don’t think anybody is very good at this game. My whole project here is to study people’s responses and see if I can develop some rules for it.

But if I really knew, I wouldn’t be asking the question.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of cody dooderson
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 9:41 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Sign Game

I am a total newbie to the sign game. What is considered a correct answer?

I took a stab at the first question. What do you think?

When a male robin enters the territorial male robin’s territory, the owner will display,

sing, and approach the intruder. Experiments show that any tuft of red cotton mounted

on brown wires will suffice to elicit this response.

I would say the (S)ign is: A red fuzzy thing

(O)bject: A male robin

(I)nterpretant: Male robins are usually red fuzzy things.

Cody Smith

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Members of the Local Congregation,

There will be a short quiz tomorrow. (};-)] Please see attached.

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The Sign Game

Dear Vladimir,

First of all, at today’s meeting of the home congregation, Frank pointed out that I have been calling you “Victor” for the last two weeks. I do apologize. Alas for you, it is of the perils of corresponding with near-octogenarians. When my father got to be this age, he would assign a new acquaintance a name on first meeting, and it took some sort of Richter 10 seismic event to get him to change it. However, I will try to do better.

Second, I keep thinking we have a levels of organization problem. When I describe the sign relations implicit in some animal behavior, I use words to describe each of the three “arguments” in the sign relation. So, if I am doing it right, the words should divide out and my statement still conveys useful information about the animal’s behavior. Similarly, brain talk should divide out, since EVERYTHING going on in the sign relation is going in in the brain. If there are peculiarities in the brain organization of one animal in comparison with another, those peculiarities should be entirely expressible in terms of the different interpretants that the different animals bring to the sign relation, or they are irrelevant. Similarly “mind talk”. Where things truly run off the rails is when we start to mix mind, and brain, and sign talk in the same formulation.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vladimyr Burachynsky
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 4:29 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Sign Game

Nick and Cody,

Cody exposed a chink in the problem. The object is not the beginning of the issue it is

the Robin’s mind that imparts the response in particular the male robin’s brain.

When the Brain connects a visual stimulus with a comparison pattern in storage, a certain threshold

initiates an entire array of physical responses. If the stimulus remains fixed the male will beat himself to death

upon meeting his own reflection. The object only acquires a status once observed.

Cody knows the fuzz is fuzz but the Robin’s knowledge is more immediate and perhaps based on a fixed neural algorithm

Knowledge makes a difference.

I raised hunting dogs for years and observed that Borzois attack anything that is moving quickly. And lose interest when the object

stops. Then they just walk around looking for something new.

The brains are the culprit, they give the object some meaning deservedly or not. Larger Brains have the luxury of choosing from a multiple

of choices.

So the brain’s basic structure initiates responses without cognition, the act of choosing

may be a mark of higher intelligence,

perhaps the reason we fail is that few people know their own minds. But we are aware of our actions.

This is hauntingly like a recursion problem where one part of the brain is required to monitor another part while it is working and before the body moves.

Then it must connect a complex brain activity with the reality of an automobile accident.

vib

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: November-18-16 3:19 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Sign Game

Thanks, Cody,

I don’t think anybody is very good at this game. My whole project here is to study people’s responses and see if I can develop some rules for it.

But if I really knew, I wouldn’t be asking the question.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

I am a total newbie to the sign game. What is considered a correct answer?

I took a stab at the first question. What do you think?

When a male robin enters the territorial male robin’s territory, the owner will display,

sing, and approach the intruder. Experiments show that any tuft of red cotton mounted

on brown wires will suffice to elicit this response.

I would say the (S)ign is: A red fuzzy thing

(O)bject: A male robin

(I)nterpretant: Male robins are usually red fuzzy things.

Cody Smith

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Members of the Local Congregation,

There will be a short quiz tomorrow. (};-)] Please see attached.

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: The Sign Game

Nick,

I have been called many things but that is the most unusual.

It amused me, end of the issue then…

I spent an entire day sending signs to a computer and having a machine demand appropriate answers to it’s questions.

I am learning Script language to assemble huge sets of computer generated Images. It is sometimes difficult

to remember that it is not a stupid creature or a spoiled child.

I am not much of an intentional philosopher but advancing age does result in a Mind Full of irrelevancies.

I wanted to commend you on your effort, no one is willing to spend so much valiant effort for a trifling compensation.

The ``signs`` is no small issue. My own contribution will make it apparent that signs may exist in some manner requiring

memory and then the correct sequence of signs exchanged contains information. The exchange of signs between two entities must be

construed as a negotiation or communication. You had assumed only one relevant entity.

Any unexpected alteration in the sequence of signs may cause activation of fear responses. In one or both parties only to be resolved by

a further display of corrective signs. Both must agree what such apologetic signs mean.

This can only happen if both entities share a form of sign library. This may be solved genetically , or by a Social System that freely dispenses significance to the ignorant upon request.

Eco’s references included work used in Europe to Standardise Signage to comply with a multitude of languages. Now seen everywhere when traveling from airport to airport.

My last keyboard included 26+ keys that never existed on my old Underwood Typewriter.

The virtual library we inhabit has accumulated many new signs without explanation. I might suggest that Cody probably uses a rather different library for daily activities, than either of us.

My children certainly live and use something unknown to me. My grandfather knew how to transport artillery cannons across the Alps using Heavy Horse Teams. There may not be many left

on this earth who are able to master such difficult assemblies today.

So now you have nailed down at least three possible fixed Categories. I would agree that they are important but where should they be placed…

Now ``Mind Talk`` … Made me halt …

You are speaking of a Sentience, verifying the exchange of Signs according to unknown rules. This now looks like a Sorting Algorithm.

My father claimed functional understanding of 10+ languages, he often laughed at his own linguistic rhymes comprised of three or more languages.

No matter how innocent something sounded, he could find a Bawdy similarity in some language.

My name contains a trailing `` yr`` as an affectation and a keel/rudder to keep the ship above, on course. It may feebly distinguish it from the Russian version.

It may someday yet become infamous in many languages. No matter which alphabet is employed…

Perhaps Culture contributes enormously to the Interpretation of Signs. Just now I am musing about the Arabic Calligraphers’

digital 3D version of Al Jazeera.

Yet I suspect Sign Interpretation starts as a neurological network and only grows from there

to a complete civilization of warring libraries. So some future charming, brave heart will drag blunderbusses over the bookshelves in No Mans Land.

The interpretation of streams of Signs does seem to require the addition of a time component.

I stumble a lot now and would send all the wrong signals on a dance floor.

cheers gentlemen and ladies

we finally reached freezing temps last night, but no snow, and soon the roads will be littered by accidents.

The Geese are still here idly waiting, on golf courses, for the proper signs to travel the long journey south.

Vladimyr

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: November-18-16 6:28 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Sign Game

Dear Vladimir,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Vladimyr Burachynsky
Sent: Friday, November 18, 2016 4:29 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Sign Game

Nick and Cody,

Cody exposed a chink in the problem. The object is not the beginning of the issue it is

the Robin’s mind that imparts the response in particular the male robin’s brain.

When the Brain connects a visual stimulus with a comparison pattern in storage, a certain threshold

initiates an entire array of physical responses. If the stimulus remains fixed the male will beat himself to death

upon meeting his own reflection. The object only acquires a status once observed.

Cody knows the fuzz is fuzz but the Robin’s knowledge is more immediate and perhaps based on a fixed neural algorithm

Knowledge makes a difference.

I raised hunting dogs for years and observed that Borzois attack anything that is moving quickly. And lose interest when the object

stops. Then they just walk around looking for something new.

The brains are the culprit, they give the object some meaning deservedly or not. Larger Brains have the luxury of choosing from a multiple

of choices.

So the brain’s basic structure initiates responses without cognition, the act of choosing

may be a mark of higher intelligence,

perhaps the reason we fail is that few people know their own minds. But we are aware of our actions.

This is hauntingly like a recursion problem where one part of the brain is required to monitor another part while it is working and before the body moves.

Then it must connect a complex brain activity with the reality of an automobile accident.

vib

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Nick Thompson
Sent: November-18-16 3:19 PM
To: 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Sign Game

Thanks, Cody,

I don’t think anybody is very good at this game. My whole project here is to study people’s responses and see if I can develop some rules for it.

But if I really knew, I wouldn’t be asking the question.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

I am a total newbie to the sign game. What is considered a correct answer?

I took a stab at the first question. What do you think?

When a male robin enters the territorial male robin’s territory, the owner will display,

sing, and approach the intruder. Experiments show that any tuft of red cotton mounted

on brown wires will suffice to elicit this response.

I would say the (S)ign is: A red fuzzy thing

(O)bject: A male robin

(I)nterpretant: Male robins are usually red fuzzy things.

Cody Smith

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Members of the Local Congregation,

There will be a short quiz tomorrow. (};-)] Please see attached.

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The Sign Game

In reply to this post by cody dooderson

Dear Cody, John, and Eric,

Thanks for doing The Sign Game for me. I have another bunch coming in from a group at St. Johns, so I will hold off any lengthy comment until next week.

Preliminarily, it struck me that for the majority of your answers, the “interpretants” were people, or at least agents of one sort or another. As I read Peirce, the interpretant is a cognition, not the agent. So in the case of the robin, the sign is “intruder”, the object is tuft of read feathers, and the interpretant is the range of things that small robin-like creature could be before the robin lights on “intruder” as a sign.

One of the things that you have all made me aware of is the role of words in all of this. Whatever sign relation is being described, it is always described in words. This seems to me into offer pitfalls for the unwary. We have to be careful not to confuse the frame with the picture.

Thanks for your help.

NIck

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

I am a total newbie to the sign game. What is considered a correct answer?

I took a stab at the first question. What do you think?

When a male robin enters the territorial male robin’s territory, the owner will display,

sing, and approach the intruder. Experiments show that any tuft of red cotton mounted

on brown wires will suffice to elicit this response.

I would say the (S)ign is: A red fuzzy thing

(O)bject: A male robin

(I)nterpretant: Male robins are usually red fuzzy things.

Cody Smith

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Members of the Local Congregation,

There will be a short quiz tomorrow. (};-)] Please see attached.

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Vladimyr Burachynsky

Re: The Sign Game

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick,

I hope this link is of some value.

https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2016/11/161121165921.htm

Vladimyr

vib

Thanks, Cody,

I don’t think anybody is very good at this game. My whole project here is to study people’s responses and see if I can develop some rules for it.

But if I really knew, I wouldn’t be asking the question.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

I am a total newbie to the sign game. What is considered a correct answer?

I took a stab at the first question. What do you think?

When a male robin enters the territorial male robin’s territory, the owner will display,

sing, and approach the intruder. Experiments show that any tuft of red cotton mounted

on brown wires will suffice to elicit this response.

I would say the (S)ign is: A red fuzzy thing

(O)bject: A male robin

(I)nterpretant: Male robins are usually red fuzzy things.

Cody Smith

On Fri, Nov 18, 2016 at 12:09 AM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear Members of the Local Congregation,

There will be a short quiz tomorrow. (};-)] Please see attached.

Nick

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove