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The Pregnant Moon

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Nick Thompson

The Pregnant Moon

Giles, et al.

"The Moon has lost her memory."

-- T.S.Eliot.

Nicholas Thompson
nickthompson at earthlink.net
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson

> [Original Message]
> From: <Friam-request at redfish.com>
> To: <Friam at redfish.com>
> Date: 11/29/2005 1:14:31 AM
> Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 29, Issue 49
>
> Send Friam mailing list submissions to
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>
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> When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
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>
>
> Today's Topics:
>
> 1. Re: The possibility of self knowledge (Frank Wimberly)
> 2. Re: The possibility of self knowledge (Giles Bowkett)
> 3. Re: The possibility of self knowledge (Robert Holmes)
> 4. Re: Self knowledge (Nicholas Thompson)
>
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Message: 1
> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 20:49:32 -0500
> From: "Frank Wimberly" <wimberly3 at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> To: "'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group'"
> <Friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID: <014b01c5f487$262071f0$0300a8c0 at FRANKNOTEBOOK>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> ?Por qu??
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505
> (505) 995-8715 or (505) 670-9918 (cell)
> wimberly3 at earthlink.net or wimberly at andrew.cmu.edu or
> wimberly at cal.berkeley.edu
>
>
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:Friam-bounces at redfish.com] On

Behalf

> Of Russell Standish
> Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 10:26 PM
> To: Nicholas Thompson
> Cc: friam at redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
>
> What I said was I didn't really understand your question. For example,
> if I ask my computer "How are you?", it responds:
>
> bash: How: command not found
>
> So, my computer, for one does not understand this question. But then
> my computer doesn't understand English. If I ask Manuel from Fawlty
> Towers the same question, his answer will be "Que" (sorry accents and
> upside down question marks are beyond my keyboard :( )
>
> Sure - I'm being flippant here - I know this is not what you mean, so
> I'm guessing at some alternative versions of what you might mean - you ask
> the computer to report on itself, this seems to beg the question of
> whether computers have a self. I know of no program that does,
> certainly not Linux, MacOS and Windows.
>
> Perhaps you mean a status report on hardware, software, or whatever, eg

the

> question "acpi" produces:
>
> Battery 1: unknown, 100%
>
> which while cryptic, means that the computer is "feeling" fully charged.
>
> If I open up emacs, type the command "doctor", then ask emacs that
> question I get:
>
> I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time
> you are finished talking, type RET twice.
>
> How are you?
>
> I'm ok. Tell me about yourself.
>
> This is basically the old Eliza program, of which I'm sure you're

familiar.
>
> But I don't think any of this is analogous to a human being reporting on
how

> they're feeling.
>
> Cheers
>
> On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:08:25PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > Russell,
> >
> > Thanks for the answer. It was just a little too compressed for my poor
> old
> > brain. What does AFAIK mean? Ohhhh. I got it. The "F" put me off

the
> > scent.
> >
> > Not clear to me why you are so sure the question is irrelevant. What is
> it
> > that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a
computer

> > couldnt do?
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> >
> >
> > > [Original Message]
> > > From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> > > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied

Complexity

> > Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> > > Date: 11/28/2005 10:29:51 PM
> > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> > >
> > > Perhaps nobody really understood your question. AFAIK, computers be it
> > > Windoze, Mac or Linux are not self-aware. Therefore question as you've
> > > posed it has no meaning.
> > >
> > > Perhaps you mean a formal system capable of introspection? You could
> > > look at some of the stuff Bruno Marchal does, as it is all about
> > > questioning a Loebian machine. I'm sure you could ask a Loebian
> > > machine about itself, and it will be able to tell you something!
> > >
> > > Cheers
> > >
> > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:52:11PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > > > My apologies for reposting this, but I buggered the subject line the
> > first time and I really am hoping for an answer from SOMEBODY.
> > > >
> > > > Dear all,
> > > >
> > > > All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the

following
> > > > question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts
> about
> > > > the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true
> causes
> > of
> > > > our own actions (which we would have to do if "we" were the causes
of
> > our
> > > > own action, eh? ) One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get
the
> > > > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when
you
> > ask a
> > > > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you
learn
> > > > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
> > monitor
> > > > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
> > specialized
> > > > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will. So in my gloom, I am sitting
> here
> > > > looking at my CP monitor in my task bar varying from 10 percent to
17
> > > > percent. So, that is not my CPU telling me about my CPU, right. If
> not,
> > > > who is it and on the basis of what incomplete knowledge is it
telling

> me
> > > > what the CPU is doing.
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nick
> > > >
> > > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > > ============================================================
> > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at
> > http://www.friam.org
> > >
> > > --
> > > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> > > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> > > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> > > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> > > may safely ignore this attachment.
> > >
> > >
> >
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> > > Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> > > Australia
> > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
> > >
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> >
>
> --
> *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> may safely ignore this attachment.
>
>

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> Australia
http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 2
> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:31:17 -0700
> From: Giles Bowkett <gilesb at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> <Friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID:
> <2d81dedb0511282031h641b7af5w8e0bcab4087e2d9d at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
>
> Tambien, que pasa aqui? No comprendo estas preguntas. Son como el sol
> y la luna -- pregunte la luna, quienes estas? La luna habla nada. Es
> Zen. Cuando su preguntan esas cosas, pregunte la luna -- y no es
> cualesquiera palabra -- o pregunte la computadora, y son muchas
> palabras, pero las palabras son vacias, para la computadora habla
> solas esas palabras que su le da, nada mas. Identicales son las mentes
> -- ambos el consciente, y el subconsciente. Tienes palabras vacias, o
> silencio. Buscas el sonido de un aplaudir de una mano.
>
> On 11/28/05, Frank Wimberly <wimberly3 at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > ?Por qu??
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly 140 Calle Ojo Feliz Santa Fe, NM 87505
> > (505) 995-8715 or (505) 670-9918 (cell)
> > wimberly3 at earthlink.net or wimberly at andrew.cmu.edu or
> > wimberly at cal.berkeley.edu
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Friam-bounces at redfish.com [mailto:Friam-bounces at redfish.com] On

Behalf

> > Of Russell Standish
> > Sent: Monday, November 28, 2005 10:26 PM
> > To: Nicholas Thompson
> > Cc: friam at redfish.com
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> >
> > What I said was I didn't really understand your question. For example,
> > if I ask my computer "How are you?", it responds:
> >
> > bash: How: command not found
> >
> > So, my computer, for one does not understand this question. But then
> > my computer doesn't understand English. If I ask Manuel from Fawlty
> > Towers the same question, his answer will be "Que" (sorry accents and
> > upside down question marks are beyond my keyboard :( )
> >
> > Sure - I'm being flippant here - I know this is not what you mean, so
> > I'm guessing at some alternative versions of what you might mean - you

ask
> > the computer to report on itself, this seems to beg the question of
> > whether computers have a self. I know of no program that does,
> > certainly not Linux, MacOS and Windows.
> >
> > Perhaps you mean a status report on hardware, software, or whatever, eg
the

> > question "acpi" produces:
> >
> > Battery 1: unknown, 100%
> >
> > which while cryptic, means that the computer is "feeling" fully charged.
> >
> > If I open up emacs, type the command "doctor", then ask emacs that
> > question I get:
> >
> > I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time
> > you are finished talking, type RET twice.
> >
> > How are you?
> >
> > I'm ok. Tell me about yourself.
> >
> > This is basically the old Eliza program, of which I'm sure you're

familiar.
> >
> > But I don't think any of this is analogous to a human being reporting
on how
> > they're feeling.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:08:25PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > > Russell,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the answer. It was just a little too compressed for my
poor
> > old
> > > brain. What does AFAIK mean? Ohhhh. I got it. The "F" put me
off the
> > > scent.
> > >
> > > Not clear to me why you are so sure the question is irrelevant. What
is
> > it
> > > that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a
computer

> > > couldnt do?
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> > > > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied

Complexity
> > > Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> > > > Date: 11/28/2005 10:29:51 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps nobody really understood your question. AFAIK, computers be
it
> > > > Windoze, Mac or Linux are not self-aware. Therefore question as
you've

> > > > posed it has no meaning.
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps you mean a formal system capable of introspection? You could
> > > > look at some of the stuff Bruno Marchal does, as it is all about
> > > > questioning a Loebian machine. I'm sure you could ask a Loebian
> > > > machine about itself, and it will be able to tell you something!
> > > >
> > > > Cheers
> > > >
> > > > On Sun, Nov 27, 2005 at 11:52:11PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > > > > My apologies for reposting this, but I buggered the subject line

the
> > > first time and I really am hoping for an answer from SOMEBODY.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear all,
> > > > >
> > > > > All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the
following
> > > > > question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts
> > about
> > > > > the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true
> > causes
> > > of
> > > > > our own actions (which we would have to do if "we" were the
causes of
> > > our
> > > > > own action, eh? ) One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get
the
> > > > > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when
you
> > > ask a
> > > > > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you
learn
> > > > > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
> > > monitor
> > > > > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
> > > specialized
> > > > > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will. So in my gloom, I am
sitting
> > here
> > > > > looking at my CP monitor in my task bar varying from 10 percent
to 17
> > > > > percent. So, that is not my CPU telling me about my CPU, right. If
> > not,
> > > > > who is it and on the basis of what incomplete knowledge is it
telling

> > me
> > > > > what the CPU is doing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Nick
> > > > >
> > > > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > > > ============================================================
> > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > > > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at
> > > http://www.friam.org
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email,

which
> > > > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> > > > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify
this
> > > > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> > > > may safely ignore this attachment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> > > > Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> > > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> > > > Australia
> > > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > > > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
> > > >
> > >
> >
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

> > >
> >
> > --
> > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email, which
> > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify this
> > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> > may safely ignore this attachment.
> >
> >

> >
> >
> > ============================================================
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org
> >
>
>
> --
> Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy
> http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 3
> Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 22:07:15 -0700
> From: Robert Holmes <rholmes62 at gmail.com>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> To: FRIAM <Friam at redfish.com>
> Message-ID:
> <857770150511282107h616c8600gbebdcb4779c00f6f at mail.gmail.com>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
>
> Hi Nick,
>
> Nope, I really do mean deterministic. First up, you can make a complex
> system out of a bunch of deterministic relations but that doesn't mean you
> have to. You can make a complex system out of stochastic relations as

well.
> Secondly, you don't always get a sensitivity with respect to initial
> conditions. For example the logistic equation x <- kx(1-x) is only chaotic
> for k > 3.57. Below that it has fixed point attractors or shows
> period-doubling.
>
> So what does this have to do with my computer? Well I'm not sure that my
> computer is a complex system, but even if it is when I'm just playing
around
> with it (like now) it's close enough to an attractor that it gives
> consistent answers to the question of (say) what is your CPU loading. It
> doesn't matter whether I opened Word first or Firefox, my CPU still says
> that it's running around 10%. (Actually that's a pretty convincing proof
> that a my PC's CPU performance isn't well-described as a complex system.
It
> doesn't display much sensitivity to initial conditions at all.) Anyway,
to a
> pretty good approximation it's a (non-complex) deterministic system.
>
> And I'm not. The answer to the question "how are you?" is highly
stochastic
> and is affected (but not determined) by my temporal distance from my last
> coffee, how well I slept last night, who I've just seen on CNN, whether
that

> irritating pain in my back is still there etc etc.
>
> Robert
>
> On 11/28/05, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > Now we are getting somewhere.!
> > ! But I need to know, oddly enough, what you mean by deterministic. I
> > assume you mean NOT deterministic but unfathomable. As I understand the
> > term, all complex systems are deterministic, but are unfathomable

because of
> > their exquisite dependency on initial conditions.
> >
> > Am I wrong?
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> >
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson<http://home.earthlink.net/%7Enicktho
mpson>

> >
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > *From:* Robert Holmes <rholmes62 at gmail.com>
> > *To: *nickthompson at earthlink.net;The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> > Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> > *Sent:* 11/28/2005 9:28:10 PM
> > *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/28/05, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > > <snip>
> > > What is it
> > > that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a
> > > computer
> > > couldnt do?
> > >
> > > Nick
> >
> >
> > Responding emotionally, not deterministically
> >
> > Robert
> >
> >
> -------------- next part --------------
> An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> URL:

http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20051128/4c34332b
/attachment-0001.htm

>
> ------------------------------
>
> Message: 4
> Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 01:14:11 -0500
> From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Self knowledge
> To: Friam at redfish.com, Friam at redfish.com
> Message-ID: <380-220051122961411297 at earthlink.net>
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
>
> Hi, all.
>
> What a splendid set of responses.
>
> Robert, when the memory of a computer is over taxed and it starts screwing
> up the display an ignoring commands , isnt it behaving emotionally.
>
> Russell, you hoisted my on my own Wittegensteinian petard. Funny how I
> always forget about language. but hang on a moment: if language is just
> word games, then it seems to me word games are just the sort of thing that
> computers ought to be able to produce.
>
> giles: I am glad you raised the issue of context dependency, which I

would

> see as just the same as the problem of point=of=viewedness or, as the
> philosophers call it, intentionality. I guess you would agree that
> computers would have not problem doing context dependancy, right
>
> BUT STILL, EVERYBODY. INQUIRING MINDS WANT TO KNOW. WHEN I ASK A
> DIAGNOSTIC PROGRAM TO TELL ME HOW MY COMPUTER IS DOING, HOW DOES IT DO
> THAT? WHAT CUES DOES IT USE./
>
> nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> nickthompson at earthlink.net
> http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
>
>
> > [Original Message]
> > From: <Friam-request at redfish.com>
> > To: <Friam at redfish.com>
> > Date: 11/28/2005 10:26:06 PM
> > Subject: Friam Digest, Vol 29, Issue 48
> >
> > Send Friam mailing list submissions to
> > Friam at redfish.com
> >
> > To subscribe or unsubscribe via the World Wide Web, visit
> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > or, via email, send a message with subject or body 'help' to
> > Friam-request at redfish.com
> >
> > You can reach the person managing the list at
> > Friam-owner at redfish.com
> >
> > When replying, please edit your Subject line so it is more specific
> > than "Re: Contents of Friam digest..."
> >
> >
> > Today's Topics:
> >
> > 1. A friend has sent you this Dilbert comic (doug at parrot-farm.net)
> > 2. Re: The possibility of self knowledge (Nicholas Thompson)
> > 3. Re: The possibility of self knowledge (Giles Bowkett)
> > 4. Re: The possibility of self knowledge (Giles Bowkett)
> > 5. Re: The possibility of self knowledge (Robert Holmes)
> > 6. Re: The possibility of self knowledge (Nicholas Thompson)
> > 7. Re: The possibility of self knowledge (Russell Standish)
> >
> >
> > ----------------------------------------------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 1
> > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 16:40:20 -0500 (EST)
> > From: doug at parrot-farm.net
> > Subject: [FRIAM] A friend has sent you this Dilbert comic
> > To: friam at redfish.com
> > Message-ID: <27061267.1133213980560.JavaMail.webadmin at umweb5>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
> >
> > Hi! A Dilbert comic strip has been sent to you from

doug at parrot-farm.net.
> >
> > To see your comic, visit Dilbert.com here:
> > http://www.comics.com/webmail/ViewStrip?key=41373452-9de28363eb-FF
> >
> > If you cannot access the page by clicking on the URL above, just copy
and
> paste it into your browser's address window. Be sure to copy the entire
> URL, as it may be broken up into two lines.
> >
> > You'll be able to view the message on our server for the next two weeks
> so print it out if you'd like to save it for posterity or sentimental
value.

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 2
> > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:08:25 -0500
> > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> > To: "Russell Standish" <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> > Cc: friam at redfish.com
> > Message-ID: <380-22005112292825353 at earthlink.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
> >
> > Russell,
> >
> > Thanks for the answer. It was just a little too compressed for my poor
> old
> > brain. What does AFAIK mean? Ohhhh. I got it. The "F" put me off

the
> > scent.
> >
> > Not clear to me why you are so sure the question is irrelevant. What is
> it
> > that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a
computer

Complexity

> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 3
> > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:19:35 -0700
> > From: Giles Bowkett <gilesb at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> > To: nickthompson at earthlink.net, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> > Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> > Cc: friam at redfish.com
> > Message-ID:
> > <2d81dedb0511281819hcc1d0dbw8b8cb80494a2d7fa at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > > One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get the
> > > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when you
> ask a
> > > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you learn
> > > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
> monitor
> > > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
> specialized
> > > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will.
> >
> > I think that's pretty much what happens when you ask a human being to
> > tell you about themselves, too. Except under unusual situations, you
> > don't get the subconscious mind handing over every single relevant
> > memory the person has ever had; you get a context-sensitive report
> > summarizing relevant data. If I ask a casual acquaintance what's going
> > on their lives, they'll probably tell me something trivial; if you ask
> > somebody close, you get more data, some of it potentially quite deep.
> > If a doctor asks you how you're feeling, he doesn't mean "how's your
> > relationship?" he means "has your arm fallen off?"
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/27/05, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My apologies for reposting this, but I buggered the subject line the
> first
> > > time and I really am hoping for an answer from SOMEBODY.
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > >
> > > All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the following
> > > question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts

about
> > > the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true
causes

> of
> > > our own actions (which we would have to do if "we" were the causes of
> our
> > > own action, eh? ) One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get the
> > > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when you
> ask a
> > > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you learn
> > > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
> monitor
> > > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
> specialized
> > > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will. So in my gloom, I am sitting

here
> > > looking at my CP monitor in my task bar varying from 10 percent to 17
> > > percent. So, that is not my CPU telling me about my CPU, right. If
not,
> > > who is it and on the basis of what incomplete knowledge is it telling
me

> > > what the CPU is doing.
> > >
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > >
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > ============================================================
> > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at
> > > http://www.friam.org
> > >
> > >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Giles Bowkett = Giles Goat Boy
> > http://www.gilesgoatboy.org/
> >
> >
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 4
> > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 19:19:35 -0700
> > From: Giles Bowkett <gilesb at gmail.com>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> > To: nickthompson at earthlink.net, The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> > Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> > Cc: friam at redfish.com
> > Message-ID:
> > <2d81dedb0511281819hcc1d0dbw8b8cb80494a2d7fa at mail.gmail.com>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
> >
> > > One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get the
> > > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when you
> ask a
> > > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you learn
> > > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
> monitor
> > > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
> specialized
> > > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will.
> >
> > I think that's pretty much what happens when you ask a human being to
> > tell you about themselves, too. Except under unusual situations, you
> > don't get the subconscious mind handing over every single relevant
> > memory the person has ever had; you get a context-sensitive report
> > summarizing relevant data. If I ask a casual acquaintance what's going
> > on their lives, they'll probably tell me something trivial; if you ask
> > somebody close, you get more data, some of it potentially quite deep.
> > If a doctor asks you how you're feeling, he doesn't mean "how's your
> > relationship?" he means "has your arm fallen off?"
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/27/05, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > > My apologies for reposting this, but I buggered the subject line the
> first
> > > time and I really am hoping for an answer from SOMEBODY.
> > >
> > > Dear all,
> > >
> > >
> > > All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the following
> > > question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts

about
> > > the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true
causes

http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20051128/4e3fe2d5

> /attachment-0001.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 6
> > Date: Mon, 28 Nov 2005 21:49:23 -0500
> > From: "Nicholas Thompson" <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> > To: robert at holmesacosta.com, "The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> > Coffee Group" <Friam at redfish.com>
> > Message-ID: <380-220051122924923768 at earthlink.net>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > Robert,
> >
> > Now we are getting somewhere.!
> > ! But I need to know, oddly enough, what you mean by deterministic. I
> assume you mean NOT deterministic but unfathomable. As I understand the
> term, all complex systems are deterministic, but are unfathomable because
> of their exquisite dependency on initial conditions.
> >
> > Am I wrong?
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Nicholas Thompson
> > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> >
> >
> > ----- Original Message -----
> > From: Robert Holmes
> > To: nickthompson at earthlink.net;The Friday Morning Applied Complexity
> Coffee Group
> > Sent: 11/28/2005 9:28:10 PM
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > On 11/28/05, Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net> wrote:
> > <snip>
> > What is it
> > that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a
> computer
> > couldnt do?
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > Responding emotionally, not deterministically
> >
> > Robert
> > -------------- next part --------------
> > An HTML attachment was scrubbed...
> > URL:
>

http://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/attachments/20051128/d932dddd

> /attachment-0001.htm
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > Message: 7
> > Date: Tue, 29 Nov 2005 14:26:00 +1100
> > From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> > To: Nicholas Thompson <nickthompson at earthlink.net>
> > Cc: friam at redfish.com
> > Message-ID: <20051129032559.GC375 at mpi.NSW.bigpond.net.au>
> > Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
> >
> > What I said was I didn't really understand your question. For example,
> > if I ask my computer "How are you?", it responds:
> >
> > bash: How: command not found
> >
> > So, my computer, for one does not understand this question. But then
> > my computer doesn't understand English. If I ask Manuel from Fawlty
> > Towers the same question, his answer will be "Que" (sorry accents and
> > upside down question marks are beyond my keyboard :( )
> >
> > Sure - I'm being flippant here - I know this is not what you mean, so
> > I'm guessing at some alternative versions of what you might mean - you

ask

> > the computer to report on itself, this seems to beg the question of
> > whether computers have a self. I know of no program that does,
> > certainly not Linux, MacOS and Windows.
> >
> > Perhaps you mean a status report on hardware, software, or whatever, eg
> the
> > question "acpi" produces:
> >
> > Battery 1: unknown, 100%
> >
> > which while cryptic, means that the computer is "feeling" fully charged.
> >
> > If I open up emacs, type the command "doctor", then ask emacs that
> > question I get:
> >
> > I am the psychotherapist. Please, describe your problems. Each time
> > you are finished talking, type RET twice.
> >
> > How are you?
> >
> > I'm ok. Tell me about yourself.
> >
> > This is basically the old Eliza program, of which I'm sure you're
> familiar.
> >
> > But I don't think any of this is analogous to a human being reporting on
> how
> > they're feeling.
> >
> > Cheers
> >
> > On Mon, Nov 28, 2005 at 09:08:25PM -0500, Nicholas Thompson wrote:
> > > Russell,
> > >
> > > Thanks for the answer. It was just a little too compressed for my

poor

> old
> > > brain. What does AFAIK mean? Ohhhh. I got it. The "F" put me off
> the
> > > scent.
> > >
> > > Not clear to me why you are so sure the question is irrelevant. What
> is it
> > > that you think you are doing when I ask you "How are you?" that a
> computer
> > > couldnt do?
> > >
> > > Nick
> > >
> > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > >
> > >
> > > > [Original Message]
> > > > From: Russell Standish <r.standish at unsw.edu.au>
> > > > To: <nickthompson at earthlink.net>; The Friday Morning Applied
> Complexity
> > > Coffee Group <Friam at redfish.com>
> > > > Date: 11/28/2005 10:29:51 PM
> > > > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The possibility of self knowledge
> > > >
> > > > Perhaps nobody really understood your question. AFAIK, computers be

it
> > > > Windoze, Mac or Linux are not self-aware. Therefore question as
you've

the

> > > first time and I really am hoping for an answer from SOMEBODY.
> > > > >
> > > > > Dear all,
> > > > >
> > > > > All the time I was out there I never thought to ask you the
> following
> > > > > question. As a behaviorist psychologist, I have always had doubts
> about
> > > > > the notion of self knowledge, in the sense that we know the true
> causes
> > > of
> > > > > our own actions (which we would have to do if "we" were the causes
> of
> > > our
> > > > > own action, eh? ) One of the reasons I went out to SFE was to get
> the
> > > > > answer to the question, what is it that a computer gives you when
> you
> > > ask a
> > > > > computer to tell you about itself. On my understanding, what you
> learn
> > > > > about is in fact the state of a specialisted subsystem designed to
> > > monitor
> > > > > the whole which gets you an answer on the basis of reports from
> > > specialized
> > > > > sub-sub systems...."cues" if you will. So in my gloom, I am

sitting

> here
> > > > > looking at my CP monitor in my task bar varying from 10 percent to
> 17
> > > > > percent. So, that is not my CPU telling me about my CPU, right. If
> not,
> > > > > who is it and on the basis of what incomplete knowledge is it
> telling me
> > > > > what the CPU is doing.
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Nick
> > > > >
> > > > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > Nicholas Thompson
> > > > > nickthompson at earthlink.net
> > > > > http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson
> > > > > ============================================================
> > > > > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > > > > Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at Mission Cafe
> > > > > Wed Lecture schedule, archives, unsubscribe, maps, etc. at
> > > http://www.friam.org
> > > >
> > > > --
> > > > *PS: A number of people ask me about the attachment to my email,

which
> > > > is of type "application/pgp-signature". Don't worry, it is not a
> > > > virus. It is an electronic signature, that may be used to verify
this
> > > > email came from me if you have PGP or GPG installed. Otherwise, you
> > > > may safely ignore this attachment.
> > > >
> > > >
> > >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > > > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> > > > Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> > > > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au

> > > > Australia
> > > http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > > > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
> > > >
> > >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > A/Prof Russell Standish Phone 8308 3119 (mobile)
> > Mathematics 0425 253119 (")
> > UNSW SYDNEY 2052 R.Standish at unsw.edu.au
> > Australia
> http://parallel.hpc.unsw.edu.au/rks
> > International prefix +612, Interstate prefix 02
> >
>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
> > -------------- next part --------------
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> > Url :
>
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> /attachment.bin
> >
> > ------------------------------
> >
> > _______________________________________________
> > Friam mailing list
> > Friam at redfish.com
> > http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> >
> >
> > End of Friam Digest, Vol 29, Issue 48
> > *************************************
>
>
>
>
>
> ------------------------------
>
> _______________________________________________
> Friam mailing list
> Friam at redfish.com
> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>
>
> End of Friam Digest, Vol 29, Issue 49
> *************************************