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The Last Mile, again

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Nick Thompson

The Last Mile, again

Dear friends and relations,

There is a movement afoot to bring broad band to us here in the mosquito infested bog. A group of locals is forming a for=profit company to bring internet (25/3) to hundreds of subscribers in our hilly, rural town. They will put 4 “Radwin” transmitters atop 150 foot towers on two local hill tops with smaller repeaters as necessary. The transmitters look for all the world like Mac Powerbooks. Each house will have a waffle sized receiver. The plan for 200 dollar initial buy-in cost and a one hundred dollar per month subscription cost for UNLIMITED service at the advertised rate. (No “up to”.) I now pay about a hundred dollars a month for a Verizon jetpack which pays for only ten gigs of data. To stay within that limit I have to turn off anything that moves on the internet, and go to the local library to get podcasts, movies, or to update software, or do a cloud backup.

In short, I am enthusiastic about the idea. What’s wrong with it? And if nothing is wrong with it, why haven’t all you Eldorado folks done it already. Go ahead. Rain on my parade. I asked them if they were afraid that Verizon would get religion and put in DSL at the last moment just to put them out of business. Their response was that local DSL service is so crappy that it probably wouldn’t make any difference. They say their real competitor is Elon Musk who is planning a vast satellite service that will light up everyone in the universe

I gather you have all been suffering gale force winds and duststorms. Ugh. We, for our part, have had seven snowfalls since we got here. (All minor, but still, relentlessly gray and chilly) The weather broke this weekend and the garden is beginning to be populated. I hope the equivalent break is happening for you.

Miss you lots,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Gary Schiltz-4

Re: The Last Mile, again

Way to go, mosquito infested bog guy! I'd be curious how much "raw bandwidth" ends up costing the group. What speed are they promising each client? Here in the People's Republic of Ecuador, dedicated bandwidth goes for about $10-20 per Mbps. I manage a micro network of 4 households and get 8 Mbps for $120/month ($30 for each household), which so far has been enough to do medium quality streaming of Amazon Prime video. Not great, but then, this is the hinterland.

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 8:43 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear friends and relations,

There is a movement afoot to bring broad band to us here in the mosquito infested bog. A group of locals is forming a for=profit company to bring internet (25/3) to hundreds of subscribers in our hilly, rural town. They will put 4 “Radwin” transmitters atop 150 foot towers on two local hill tops with smaller repeaters as necessary. The transmitters look for all the world like Mac Powerbooks.   Each house will have a waffle sized receiver. The plan for 200 dollar initial buy-in cost and a one hundred dollar per month subscription cost for UNLIMITED service at the advertised rate. (No “up to”.) I now pay about a hundred dollars a month for a Verizon jetpack which pays for only ten gigs of data. To stay within that limit I have to turn off anything that moves on the internet, and go to the local library to get podcasts, movies, or to update software, or do a cloud backup.

In short, I am enthusiastic about the idea. What’s wrong with it? And if nothing is wrong with it, why haven’t all you Eldorado folks done it already. Go ahead. Rain on my parade.   I asked them if they were afraid that Verizon would get religion and put in DSL at the last moment just to put them out of business.   Their response was that local DSL service is so crappy that it probably wouldn’t make any difference. They say their real competitor is Elon Musk who is planning a vast satellite service that will light up everyone in the universe

I gather you have all been suffering gale force winds and duststorms. Ugh. We, for our part, have had seven snowfalls since we got here. (All minor, but still, relentlessly gray and chilly) The weather broke this weekend and the garden is beginning to be populated.   I hope the equivalent break is happening for you.

Miss you lots,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: The Last Mile, again

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick -

I'd say there is good news and bad news... but most likely mostly good news. (TLDR and TMI for most here):

Richard Lowenberg formed a group here in SFe some 10 years ago (nearly?) called "the FIRST Mile" to turn the language around. "Last Mile" leaves it to the industry to treat us like an afterthought... and while there is solid logic to building a network from the center out... it doesn't fit the logic that went into things like Rural Electrification and Telephony and even Cable Franchises, requiring corporate interests to service the more difficult and remote long before (if ever) they would have based entirely on market forces.

I don't know "Radwin" but what you describe is roughly what the "La Canada" cooperative did for the South Santa Fe region (including El Dorado) some 15 or more years ago. I attended one of their board meetings about 7 years ago when my best (only?!) option coming from the San Ildefonso Pueblo (established with a Grant) shut down abruptly (not long after the Grant was over). I was trying to gather enough information and support to possibly form a similar non-profit for the Pojoaque Valley area which has notoriously bad coverage. I am looking into it again (with a little less naivete) because the Federal Grant service known as RediNet with phat fiber to our valley seems to finally be ready to receive a coop if we can get our act together.

The good news is that what they are describing is generally quite doable, the only question is whether they can get enough customers, raise the capital for the primary infrastructure, and keep it operating long enough to get into the black. The same challenges I am seeing with a not-for-profit effort here... just without any need to make more $$ than it takes to operate viably.

The bad news is not too bad. First, They can't be promising 0% oversubscription of bandwidth... that would be prohibitively expensive and excessive for the type of utilization a collection of (part-time?) homeowners would need. Their level of oversubscription (in theory and in reality) is what will make or break your real bandwidth. If I read you correctly they are offering 25Mbps down and 3Mbps up? I'm not sure what the range of oversubscription is, but I"ve heard on the order of 4x to 32x with the former being very rare and usually only during a startup phase before a service actually connects enough customers to begin to consume the bandwidth.

My own service is commercial, using similar hardware (in our case, Ubiquiti) and I get mine beamed a solid 23 miles from Big Tesuque. I pay $70/month for 10/5Mbps (which I rarely see), including a $10/month lease of my receiving equipment (vs one-time of about $300) I have variable service and gaps in service based on (apparently?) wind and icing on the mountain (much more than your towers will likely ever see) and landline cable cuts between SFe&ABQ. If your guys are *commercial* then ultimately they may fall into the trap of trying to maximize profits which will ultimately marginalize services for you. Meanwhile I suspect they will outperform DSL (over old copper with oxidizing connection blocks on poles or underground) and cable (similar but also often not as pervasive as twisted pair phone lines).

I also took a whirl at prototyping a "mesh" system designed to support third world ruralities with Voice over IP and Internet. I was trying to set up a network in La Puebla to serve a large handful of small farmers/horse-people who either had no service (no phone or cable wires to their property) or were unhappy with the quality of service they were getting and were (superficially?) willing to participate in a cooperative experiment with their neighbors. The basic units are called "Mesh Potatoes" (I forget the origin of Potato in this) and cost about $30 each. They are fundamentally 802.11 routers with two radios for "bridging" packaged in a weatherproof case, with a VOIP chip (so neighbors can pick up a simple phone handset and ring one another), and can therefore also receive external longer range (beam shaping) antennae to reach further in a given direction.

Each house would have one of these and possibly one or more identical units acting as "repeaters" in between them and one or more other houses in the "mesh". They were designed to be easy to set up and cheap enough to swap out if there were a hardware failure. They run off of a wide range of low-voltage, making them ideal for solar powering, but the $30 units only come with a 110/220 wallwart requiring mains. Their draw is low enough though that you could probably hook one up in a vehicle and park it in a convenient spot without drawing the battery too badly. Most of the regions they are aimed at don't have mains nor vehicles, so batteries (intermittently charged or swapped) or solar are the most common.

I DID have some technical difficulties, mostly in placing routers close enough to both power sources (mains) and amongst the participants, but the big thing was that in spite of being underserved, rural self-made types, I could tell very quickly that they all "just wanted a service that works" and weren't very cooperative when I started asking them for permission to install a directional antenna on the side of a barn or casita to reach a neighbor, or instructing them on how to reset the system if their neighbors were having trouble... They also wanted a minimum of Netflix Streaming without any buffering 99% of the time.... In a few cases I saw what they were wanting to replace (DSL providing Netflix Streaming with no buffering 90% of the time) and how unhappy they were and realized I was setting up another thankless role/task for myself. On the other end, the best way to get an uplink (or several redundant) was from the existing providers who were not willing to adjust their End User License Agreements to allow the kind of sharing implied... As awkward as it was for me trying to set all of this up, I realized it confronted *their* service model of one contract/bill/POC per household/family, even if half of the people I was working with *couldn't* access their current service (lack of infrastructure or even line of site to towers).

My final goal was to help a friend from Kenya light up the series of villages along the western edge of the Rift Valley where he is from... he is an Olympic runner who came to Northern NM to train for the 04s and stayed... they feel lucky there if there is an elementary school within a 30 minute *run* from home... that is how he (and many Kenyans) apparently get started running... "running to school", forget "up hill both ways in the snow!"

I doubt that the incumbents in your area will try to compete these guys out of business directly... they may be happy to have them picking up the "difficult to serve" clients. I also think that despite the downfalls of a commercial service that ultimately you will likely get better service... coops tend to depend heavily on dedicated volunteer help... members who are highly motivated and technical... who carry most of the weight (until they burn out or are replaced by fresh folks).

In any case, congratulations and carry on! All that extra EM radiation may slow the mosquitos down for you? Don't forget to wear your tinfoil hat!

- Steve

There is a movement afoot to bring broad band to us here in the mosquito infested bog. A group of locals is forming a for=profit company to bring internet (25/3) to hundreds of subscribers in our hilly, rural town. They will put 4 “Radwin” transmitters atop 150 foot towers on two local hill tops with smaller repeaters as necessary. The transmitters look for all the world like Mac Powerbooks.   Each house will have a waffle sized receiver. The plan for 200 dollar initial buy-in cost and a one hundred dollar per month subscription cost for UNLIMITED service at the advertised rate. (No “up to”.) I now pay about a hundred dollars a month for a Verizon jetpack which pays for only ten gigs of data. To stay within that limit I have to turn off anything that moves on the internet, and go to the local library to get podcasts, movies, or to update software, or do a cloud backup.

In short, I am enthusiastic about the idea. What’s wrong with it? And if nothing is wrong with it, why haven’t all you Eldorado folks done it already. Go ahead. Rain on my parade.   I asked them if they were afraid that Verizon would get religion and put in DSL at the last moment just to put them out of business.   Their response was that local DSL service is so crappy that it probably wouldn’t make any difference. They say their real competitor is Elon Musk who is planning a vast satellite service that will light up everyone in the universe

I gather you have all been suffering gale force winds and duststorms. Ugh. We, for our part, have had seven snowfalls since we got here. (All minor, but still, relentlessly gray and chilly) The weather broke this weekend and the garden is beginning to be populated.   I hope the equivalent break is happening for you.

Miss you lots,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The Last Mile, again

In reply to this post by Gary Schiltz-4

Gary,

You will be pleased to know that the local group is calling itself, Hinternet.

They are promising “25/3”, whatever that means. They said it was the minimum standard for
“broad band”. And that was not a variable. No throttling. NO time off for bad behavior. Unlimited access at that speed. “So”, I asked them, “What happens when everybody starts streaming the Superbowl at once?”
“No problem. We have a gig in our pipe and we’ll smoke it” or words to that effect.

Does anybody know what those words mean?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 10:54 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 8:43 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear friends and relations,

There is a movement afoot to bring broad band to us here in the mosquito infested bog. A group of locals is forming a for=profit company to bring internet (25/3) to hundreds of subscribers in our hilly, rural town. They will put 4 “Radwin” transmitters atop 150 foot towers on two local hill tops with smaller repeaters as necessary. The transmitters look for all the world like Mac Powerbooks.   Each house will have a waffle sized receiver. The plan for 200 dollar initial buy-in cost and a one hundred dollar per month subscription cost for UNLIMITED service at the advertised rate. (No “up to”.) I now pay about a hundred dollars a month for a Verizon jetpack which pays for only ten gigs of data. To stay within that limit I have to turn off anything that moves on the internet, and go to the local library to get podcasts, movies, or to update software, or do a cloud backup.

In short, I am enthusiastic about the idea. What’s wrong with it? And if nothing is wrong with it, why haven’t all you Eldorado folks done it already. Go ahead. Rain on my parade.   I asked them if they were afraid that Verizon would get religion and put in DSL at the last moment just to put them out of business.   Their response was that local DSL service is so crappy that it probably wouldn’t make any difference. They say their real competitor is Elon Musk who is planning a vast satellite service that will light up everyone in the universe

I gather you have all been suffering gale force winds and duststorms. Ugh. We, for our part, have had seven snowfalls since we got here. (All minor, but still, relentlessly gray and chilly) The weather broke this weekend and the garden is beginning to be populated.   I hope the equivalent break is happening for you.

Miss you lots,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Frank Wimberly-2

Re: The Last Mile, again

25/3 probably means 25mbps down and 3mbps up.

----
Frank Wimberly

www.amazon.com/author/frankwimberly

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2

Phone (505) 670-9918

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018, 10:06 PM Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Gary,

You will be pleased to know that the local group is calling itself, Hinternet.

They are promising “25/3”, whatever that means. They said it was the minimum standard for
“broad band”. And that was not a variable. No throttling. NO time off for bad behavior. Unlimited access at that speed. “So”, I asked them, “What happens when everybody starts streaming the Superbowl at once?”
“No problem. We have a gig in our pipe and we’ll smoke it” or words to that effect.

Does anybody know what those words mean?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gary Schiltz
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 10:54 PM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

Way to go, mosquito infested bog guy! I'd be curious how much "raw bandwidth" ends up costing the group. What speed are they promising each client? Here in the People's Republic of Ecuador, dedicated bandwidth goes for about $10-20 per Mbps. I manage a micro network of 4 households and get 8 Mbps for $120/month ($30 for each household), which so far has been enough to do medium quality streaming of Amazon Prime video. Not great, but then, this is the hinterland.

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 8:43 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:
Dear friends and relations,

There is a movement afoot to bring broad band to us here in the mosquito infested bog. A group of locals is forming a for=profit company to bring internet (25/3) to hundreds of subscribers in our hilly, rural town. They will put 4 “Radwin” transmitters atop 150 foot towers on two local hill tops with smaller repeaters as necessary. The transmitters look for all the world like Mac Powerbooks.   Each house will have a waffle sized receiver. The plan for 200 dollar initial buy-in cost and a one hundred dollar per month subscription cost for UNLIMITED service at the advertised rate. (No “up to”.) I now pay about a hundred dollars a month for a Verizon jetpack which pays for only ten gigs of data. To stay within that limit I have to turn off anything that moves on the internet, and go to the local library to get podcasts, movies, or to update software, or do a cloud backup.

In short, I am enthusiastic about the idea. What’s wrong with it? And if nothing is wrong with it, why haven’t all you Eldorado folks done it already. Go ahead. Rain on my parade.   I asked them if they were afraid that Verizon would get religion and put in DSL at the last moment just to put them out of business.   Their response was that local DSL service is so crappy that it probably wouldn’t make any difference. They say their real competitor is Elon Musk who is planning a vast satellite service that will light up everyone in the universe

I gather you have all been suffering gale force winds and duststorms. Ugh. We, for our part, have had seven snowfalls since we got here. (All minor, but still, relentlessly gray and chilly) The weather broke this weekend and the garden is beginning to be populated.   I hope the equivalent break is happening for you.

Miss you lots,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The Last Mile, again

In reply to this post by Steve Smith

Steve,

Thanks So much. Can you explain the following passage in greater detail? What do you mean by “over-subscription”.

The bad news is not too bad. First, They can't be promising 0% oversubscription of bandwidth... that would be prohibitively expensive and excessive for the type of utilization a collection of (part-time?) homeowners would need. Their level of oversubscription (in theory and in reality) is what will make or break your real bandwidth. If I read you correctly they are offering 25Mbps down and 3Mbps up? I'm not sure what the range of oversubscription is, but I’ve heard on the order of 4x to 32x with the former being very rare and usually only during a startup phase before a service actually connects enough customers to begin to consume the bandwidth.

That seems to be what they are promising. See my answer to Gary, just sent. The said that they had contracted for a 1 gig pipe and that that would take care of anything subscribers could throw at them. I didn’t make any sense to me, but perhaps I just misunderstood. If I understood the units, 40 users could exhaust I G if they all got on at the same time. I assume we are talking about Mega/Giga per second here. So to carry out the promise as I heard it, they would have to have a 1 gig pipe for every 40 users and they are talking about 100-200 users to begin with. So, is that what you mean by “over-subscription”: the number of paid subscribers who would be left out if everybody tried to get on simultaneously at full speed?

What questions should I be asking them?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Monday, April 23, 2018 11:32 PM
To: [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

Nick -

I'd say there is good news and bad news... but most likely mostly good news. (TLDR and TMI for most here):

In any case, congratulations and carry on! All that extra EM radiation may slow the mosquitos down for you? Don't forget to wear your tinfoil hat!

- Steve

There is a movement afoot to bring broad band to us here in the mosquito infested bog. A group of locals is forming a for=profit company to bring internet (25/3) to hundreds of subscribers in our hilly, rural town. They will put 4 “Radwin” transmitters atop 150 foot towers on two local hill tops with smaller repeaters as necessary. The transmitters look for all the world like Mac Powerbooks.   Each house will have a waffle sized receiver. The plan for 200 dollar initial buy-in cost and a one hundred dollar per month subscription cost for UNLIMITED service at the advertised rate. (No “up to”.) I now pay about a hundred dollars a month for a Verizon jetpack which pays for only ten gigs of data. To stay within that limit I have to turn off anything that moves on the internet, and go to the local library to get podcasts, movies, or to update software, or do a cloud backup.

In short, I am enthusiastic about the idea. What’s wrong with it? And if nothing is wrong with it, why haven’t all you Eldorado folks done it already. Go ahead. Rain on my parade.   I asked them if they were afraid that Verizon would get religion and put in DSL at the last moment just to put them out of business.   Their response was that local DSL service is so crappy that it probably wouldn’t make any difference. They say their real competitor is Elon Musk who is planning a vast satellite service that will light up everyone in the universe

I gather you have all been suffering gale force winds and duststorms. Ugh. We, for our part, have had seven snowfalls since we got here. (All minor, but still, relentlessly gray and chilly) The weather broke this weekend and the garden is beginning to be populated.   I hope the equivalent break is happening for you.

Miss you lots,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: The Last Mile, again

Thanks So much. Can you explain the following passage in greater detail? What do you mean by “over-subscription”.

If I actually got my 10Mbps down and 5Mbps up from my provider consistently and I had say 4 devices running in my house, potentially all trying to use *all* 10/5, then within my household I would be "oversubscribed" by 4X. Of course, I know that it is unlikely for all 4 devices to be trying to push/pull that hard at the same time, continuously so for all practical purposes, my 10/5 is available to all 4 devices under most "normal" circumstances.

I don't know who (if anyone) regulates oversubscription of bandwidth, in this modern wild west it is probably just market forces.

That seems to be what they are promising. See my answer to Gary, just sent. The said that they had contracted for a 1 gig pipe and that that would take care of anything subscribers could throw at them. I didn’t make any sense to me, but perhaps I just misunderstood. If I understood the units, 40 users could exhaust I G if they all got on at the same time.

Yes, I misregistered the units by 10x. IF 40 users all started pushing (or pulling) as hard as the link would let them (25/3) at the same time, continuously, then you would begin to see degradation (probably sooner for lots of reasons), but the fact is, very few people have the need to use the network that heavily except in bursts and rarely is there a service on the other end willing to meet them halfway and push/pull that much data. If they are planning on supporting 100 users, then they are at a 2.5X oversubscription rate, but from anecdotal evidence, THAT is very reasonable.

I assume we are talking about Mega/Giga per second here. So to carry out the promise as I heard it, they would have to have a 1 gig pipe for every 40 users and they are talking about 100-200 users to begin with. So, is that what you mean by “over-subscription”: the number of paid subscribers who would be left out if everybody tried to get on simultaneously at full speed?

Yes, that is a correct understanding, but as I indicated above, it is unlikely that anyone, much less everyone can push/pull that hard except very intermittently.

What questions should I be asking them?

I think they are making all of the right promises and suggesting all the right things... the real proof will be in their execution. You aren't in a good position to be second guessing too much about their technical design, but what their redundancy/backup plans are may define how long they stay down if a backhoe, for example, cuts their main line... or if lightning fries a rack of gear, etc. They probably will tell you reassuring things in any case, so the bigger question is whether you trust them.

One thing that might be *real* problems are "line of sight" from your location to one of their towers... if you can *see* one or more of the hilltops where they have towers, you are in pretty good shape unless you are seeing it through your bare trees (or right past the edge) or your neighbor puts up a big barn in the way.

Another is whether they have the install capacity to stand up 100 or more customers quickly... one install team might be able to do several a day (without problems) but with delays and weekends, that might mean some customers won't see service for a couple of months.

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The Last Mile, again

Thanks, Steve,

So clear. May I share your exposition with locals, here? Attributed? Or Anonymous?

I thought “Radwin” might be a standard. It turns out to be a company. Interesting website.

https://www.radwin.com/

Let me know what you think.

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 12:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

Thanks So much. Can you explain the following passage in greater detail? What do you mean by “over-subscription”.

That seems to be what they are promising. See my answer to Gary, just sent. The said that they had contracted for a 1 gig pipe and that that would take care of anything subscribers could throw at them. I didn’t make any sense to me, but perhaps I just misunderstood. If I understood the units, 40 users could exhaust I G if they all got on at the same time.

I assume we are talking about Mega/Giga per second here. So to carry out the promise as I heard it, they would have to have a 1 gig pipe for every 40 users and they are talking about 100-200 users to begin with. So, is that what you mean by “over-subscription”: the number of paid subscribers who would be left out if everybody tried to get on simultaneously at full speed?

Yes, that is a correct understanding, but as I indicated above, it is unlikely that anyone, much less everyone can push/pull that hard except very intermittently.

What questions should I be asking them?

Gillian Densmore

Re: The Last Mile, again

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

@Elon Musk Hmm maybie. I subscribe to ScienceNow. And get regular reeely cool and hopeful news.

I'm a little skeptical

And I want to be proven wrong.

The ScienceNow aroticle I read reminded me a lot of the Starry, 'Starnet, and StarLink', and Motorla's Iridium satalite stunts. Part of my skeptisism is Musk has a thing geeking out via press confrences, and their also being enormous issues between his brainstorming phase: and getting it into action phase. He almost reminds me of the real life version of Doc Brown: Tesela has had issues from word go./ His hyperloop project keeps running into issues and drama. On the other hand SpaceX is starting get someplace,

On the other hand I do agree with him about needing to do something to keep sciences moving. It looked like NASA was starting to stagnate.

On the other hand Nick you might be right. Musk tends to go for really big ideas. StarLink and or something like it on paper looks hopefull for filling the gaps and that is reeely cool

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 7:43 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear friends and relations,

There is a movement afoot to bring broad band to us here in the mosquito infested bog. A group of locals is forming a for=profit company to bring internet (25/3) to hundreds of subscribers in our hilly, rural town. They will put 4 “Radwin” transmitters atop 150 foot towers on two local hill tops with smaller repeaters as necessary. The transmitters look for all the world like Mac Powerbooks.   Each house will have a waffle sized receiver. The plan for 200 dollar initial buy-in cost and a one hundred dollar per month subscription cost for UNLIMITED service at the advertised rate. (No “up to”.) I now pay about a hundred dollars a month for a Verizon jetpack which pays for only ten gigs of data. To stay within that limit I have to turn off anything that moves on the internet, and go to the local library to get podcasts, movies, or to update software, or do a cloud backup.

In short, I am enthusiastic about the idea. What’s wrong with it? And if nothing is wrong with it, why haven’t all you Eldorado folks done it already. Go ahead. Rain on my parade.   I asked them if they were afraid that Verizon would get religion and put in DSL at the last moment just to put them out of business.   Their response was that local DSL service is so crappy that it probably wouldn’t make any difference. They say their real competitor is Elon Musk who is planning a vast satellite service that will light up everyone in the universe

I gather you have all been suffering gale force winds and duststorms. Ugh. We, for our part, have had seven snowfalls since we got here. (All minor, but still, relentlessly gray and chilly) The weather broke this weekend and the garden is beginning to be populated.   I hope the equivalent break is happening for you.

Miss you lots,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

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Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
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Steve Smith

Re: The Last Mile, again

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick -

You are welcome to share, attributed or otherwise. I think the bottom line is really how much you trust this group which is mostly a non-technical problem... and by trust I don't just mean intentions but also their true ability to follow through... naturally, the more honest support they get, the better.

My sensibilities would suggest that you "organize" your locals to act as a coalition to simultaneously support the effort, and to watchdog them. In the extreme, I could even imagine pushing for a subscriber-owned system which is not as radical as a coop but has some of the same properties. If instead of a $100 buy-in, a $500 buy-in bought a (collective) minority share in the endeavor? I don't know if $50,000 in capitalization would help get them off the ground faster or if a voting block of acute stakeholders would be welcome or not, but it is a thought. My leaning is toward more people taking more interest in the obtainment and support of their own services, opposite the trend toward deferring same to (big) government and (huge) commerce until something goes off the rails one direction or the other (tragedy of the commons vs unregulated greed).

I appreciate your bringing this up about now, as it fortifies my interest in trying (again) to drum up support for the sorting out of up to date broadband in the Pojoaque Valley which is surely less difficult (hilly and vegetated) than your own backyard there in (Maine?).

- Steve

On 4/24/18 7:56 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Thanks, Steve,

So clear. May I share your exposition with locals, here? Attributed? Or Anonymous?

I thought “Radwin” might be a standard. It turns out to be a company. Interesting website.

https://www.radwin.com/

Let me know what you think.

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 12:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

Thanks So much. Can you explain the following passage in greater detail? What do you mean by “over-subscription”.

If I actually got my 10Mbps down and 5Mbps up from my provider consistently and I had say 4 devices running in my house, potentially all trying to use *all* 10/5, then within my household I would be "oversubscribed" by 4X.   Of course, I know that it is unlikely for all 4 devices to be trying to push/pull that hard at the same time, continuously so for all practical purposes, my 10/5 is available to all 4 devices under most "normal" circumstances.

I don't know who (if anyone) regulates oversubscription of bandwidth, in this modern wild west it is probably just market forces.

That seems to be what they are promising. See my answer to Gary, just sent. The said that they had contracted for a 1 gig pipe and that that would take care of anything subscribers could throw at them. I didn’t make any sense to me, but perhaps I just misunderstood. If I understood the units, 40 users could exhaust I G if they all got on at the same time.

Yes, I misregistered the units by 10x. IF 40 users all started pushing (or pulling) as hard as the link would let them (25/3) at the same time, continuously, then you would begin to see degradation (probably sooner for lots of reasons), but the fact is, very few people have the need to use the network that heavily except in bursts and rarely is there a service on the other end willing to meet them halfway and push/pull that much data.   If they are planning on supporting 100 users, then they are at a 2.5X oversubscription rate, but from anecdotal evidence, THAT is very reasonable.

I assume we are talking about Mega/Giga per second here. So to carry out the promise as I heard it, they would have to have a 1 gig pipe for every 40 users and they are talking about 100-200 users to begin with. So, is that what you mean by “over-subscription”: the number of paid subscribers who would be left out if everybody tried to get on simultaneously at full speed?

Yes, that is a correct understanding, but as I indicated above, it is unlikely that anyone, much less everyone can push/pull that hard except very intermittently.

What questions should I be asking them?

I think they are making all of the right promises and suggesting all the right things... the real proof will be in their execution.   You aren't in a good position to be second guessing too much about their technical design, but what their redundancy/backup plans are may define how long they stay down if a backhoe, for example, cuts their main line... or if lightning fries a rack of gear, etc.    They probably will tell you reassuring things in any case, so the bigger question is whether you trust them.

One thing that might be *real* problems are "line of sight" from your location to one of their towers... if you can *see* one or more of the hilltops where they have towers, you are in pretty good shape unless you are seeing it through your bare trees (or right past the edge) or your neighbor puts up a big barn in the way.

Another is whether they have the install capacity to stand up 100 or more customers quickly... one install team might be able to do several a day (without problems) but with delays and weekends, that might mean some customers won't see service for a couple of months.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The Last Mile, again

Steve,

Have you ever thought of connecting with the Acequia organizations up there?

I know a guy.

Water. Internet. It’s all the same, right?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 11:09 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

Nick -

- Steve

On 4/24/18 7:56 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Thanks, Steve,

So clear. May I share your exposition with locals, here? Attributed? Or Anonymous?

I thought “Radwin” might be a standard. It turns out to be a company. Interesting website.

https://www.radwin.com/

Let me know what you think.

N

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 12:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

Thanks So much. Can you explain the following passage in greater detail? What do you mean by “over-subscription”.
If I actually got my 10Mbps down and 5Mbps up from my provider consistently and I had say 4 devices running in my house, potentially all trying to use *all* 10/5, then within my household I would be "oversubscribed" by 4X.   Of course, I know that it is unlikely for all 4 devices to be trying to push/pull that hard at the same time, continuously so for all practical purposes, my 10/5 is available to all 4 devices under most "normal" circumstances.

I don't know who (if anyone) regulates oversubscription of bandwidth, in this modern wild west it is probably just market forces.

That seems to be what they are promising. See my answer to Gary, just sent. The said that they had contracted for a 1 gig pipe and that that would take care of anything subscribers could throw at them. I didn’t make any sense to me, but perhaps I just misunderstood. If I understood the units, 40 users could exhaust I G if they all got on at the same time.
Yes, I misregistered the units by 10x. IF 40 users all started pushing (or pulling) as hard as the link would let them (25/3) at the same time, continuously, then you would begin to see degradation (probably sooner for lots of reasons), but the fact is, very few people have the need to use the network that heavily except in bursts and rarely is there a service on the other end willing to meet them halfway and push/pull that much data.   If they are planning on supporting 100 users, then they are at a 2.5X oversubscription rate, but from anecdotal evidence, THAT is very reasonable.

I assume we are talking about Mega/Giga per second here. So to carry out the promise as I heard it, they would have to have a 1 gig pipe for every 40 users and they are talking about 100-200 users to begin with. So, is that what you mean by “over-subscription”: the number of paid subscribers who would be left out if everybody tried to get on simultaneously at full speed?
Yes, that is a correct understanding, but as I indicated above, it is unlikely that anyone, much less everyone can push/pull that hard except very intermittently.

What questions should I be asking them?
I think they are making all of the right promises and suggesting all the right things... the real proof will be in their execution.   You aren't in a good position to be second guessing too much about their technical design, but what their redundancy/backup plans are may define how long they stay down if a backhoe, for example, cuts their main line... or if lightning fries a rack of gear, etc.    They probably will tell you reassuring things in any case, so the bigger question is whether you trust them.

One thing that might be *real* problems are "line of sight" from your location to one of their towers... if you can *see* one or more of the hilltops where they have towers, you are in pretty good shape unless you are seeing it through your bare trees (or right past the edge) or your neighbor puts up a big barn in the way.

Another is whether they have the install capacity to stand up 100 or more customers quickly... one install team might be able to do several a day (without problems) but with delays and weekends, that might mean some customers won't see service for a couple of months.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Nick Thompson

Re: The Last Mile, again

In reply to this post by Gillian Densmore

Gill,

Oh the Musk idea was not mine. To me Musk is something you find in Weasel pee.

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [mailto:[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Gillian Densmore
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 10:45 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <[hidden email]>
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

@Elon Musk Hmm maybie. I subscribe to ScienceNow. And get regular reeely cool and hopeful news.

I'm a little skeptical

And I want to be proven wrong.

On the other hand I do agree with him about needing to do something to keep sciences moving. It looked like NASA was starting to stagnate.

On the other hand Nick you might be right. Musk tends to go for really big ideas. StarLink and or something like it on paper looks hopefull for filling the gaps and that is reeely cool

On Mon, Apr 23, 2018 at 7:43 PM, Nick Thompson <[hidden email]> wrote:

Dear friends and relations,

There is a movement afoot to bring broad band to us here in the mosquito infested bog. A group of locals is forming a for=profit company to bring internet (25/3) to hundreds of subscribers in our hilly, rural town. They will put 4 “Radwin” transmitters atop 150 foot towers on two local hill tops with smaller repeaters as necessary. The transmitters look for all the world like Mac Powerbooks.   Each house will have a waffle sized receiver. The plan for 200 dollar initial buy-in cost and a one hundred dollar per month subscription cost for UNLIMITED service at the advertised rate. (No “up to”.) I now pay about a hundred dollars a month for a Verizon jetpack which pays for only ten gigs of data. To stay within that limit I have to turn off anything that moves on the internet, and go to the local library to get podcasts, movies, or to update software, or do a cloud backup.

In short, I am enthusiastic about the idea. What’s wrong with it? And if nothing is wrong with it, why haven’t all you Eldorado folks done it already. Go ahead. Rain on my parade.   I asked them if they were afraid that Verizon would get religion and put in DSL at the last moment just to put them out of business.   Their response was that local DSL service is so crappy that it probably wouldn’t make any difference. They say their real competitor is Elon Musk who is planning a vast satellite service that will light up everyone in the universe

I gather you have all been suffering gale force winds and duststorms. Ugh. We, for our part, have had seven snowfalls since we got here. (All minor, but still, relentlessly gray and chilly) The weather broke this weekend and the garden is beginning to be populated.   I hope the equivalent break is happening for you.

Miss you lots,

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson
Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology
Clark University
http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Negroponte Inversion

In reply to this post by Gillian Densmore

As I promote wireless broadband in my own valley and cheer on Nick in
his "hilly, wooded, region of New England", I am reminded of the
admonition Nicholas Negroponte offered us some 25 years ago regarding
the upside down/inside out nature of our communications networks and
their "inevitable" inversion.

Essentially, he pointed out that technological and usage trends in
networking would cause that which currently went over the airwaves
(primarily broadcast TV and Radio?) to go over hardwired networks and
that which went over hard lines (primarily telephony and sensor
networks?) to move to wireless.   I think his reasoning was mostly about
scale-free networking (without invoking the term), reserving the common
aether for shorter range, more ad-hoc communication (e.g. bluetooth
links amongst your fitness band, headphones, mobile device, and laptop)
while creating more private sub-aethers (fiber lines as waveguides for
modulated EM) for the higher bandwidth, longer-reach stuff.

In spite of the recent thread here "debunking" Scale Free networks being
natural (or was it inevitable, or pervasive?), I do believe that a
scale-free packing is an optimal use of a *conserved* 2 or 3 D space to
move 1 or 2D objects (atoms or bits or water droplets or people or cars
or cargo ships or airlines.

- Steve

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove

Steve Smith

Re: The Last Mile, again

In reply to this post by Nick Thompson

Nick-

Yes, I think it is very motivated.

With the Ammodt water settlement (Tesuque/Nambe/Pojoaque river basisns) and the community water system being developed, we have tried to get them to consider co-locating fiber with every water line, or perhaps even easier, lay in water line with fiber *inside* (apparently it IS a thing) so that every household who agrees to cap their well and take "city water" gets an instant (dark) fat pipe of internet... it might be a serious added incentive for some otherwise reluctant (such as myself) to sign up.

In contrast, the Acequia associations have been operating for centuries in these rural parts, delivering a service (irrigation water) much like broadband internet (in some abstract sense) to community-organized groups... The Mayordomo and Ditch Cleaning Day and Water Day, are all very familiar and dear concepts... though I also know of (too) many situations where one Hatfield or McCoy gets uppity and starts nothing short of a range war in their neighborhood by "stealing" more than their share of water or cutting off water to a someone downstream out of spite, etc. I think this experience *might* be part of the reason that the people I was trying to help in La Puebla were a little stiff/suspicious... they don't (fully) trust their neighbors to "play fair" when it comes to important things like irrigation water and streaming video.

Maybe Stanley Crawford will write a novel about this.

- Steve

On 4/24/18 9:41 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:

Steve,

Have you ever thought of connecting with the Acequia organizations up there?

I know a guy.

Water. Internet. It’s all the same, right?

Nick

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 11:09 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

Nick -

You are welcome to share, attributed or otherwise. I think the bottom line is really how much you trust this group which is mostly a non-technical problem... and by trust I don't just mean intentions but also their true ability to follow through... naturally, the more honest support they get, the better.

My sensibilities would suggest that you "organize" your locals to act as a coalition to simultaneously support the effort, and to watchdog them. In the extreme, I could even imagine pushing for a subscriber-owned system which is not as radical as a coop but has some of the same properties. If instead of a $100 buy-in, a $500 buy-in bought a (collective) minority share in the endeavor? I don't know if $50,000 in capitalization would help get them off the ground faster or if a voting block of acute stakeholders would be welcome or not, but it is a thought. My leaning is toward more people taking more interest in the obtainment and support of their own services, opposite the trend toward deferring same to (big) government and (huge) commerce until something goes off the rails one direction or the other (tragedy of the commons vs unregulated greed).

I appreciate your bringing this up about now, as it fortifies my interest in trying (again) to drum up support for the sorting out of up to date broadband in the Pojoaque Valley which is surely less difficult (hilly and vegetated) than your own backyard there in (Maine?).

- Steve

On 4/24/18 7:56 AM, Nick Thompson wrote:
Thanks, Steve,

So clear. May I share your exposition with locals, here? Attributed? Or Anonymous?

I thought “Radwin” might be a standard. It turns out to be a company. Interesting website.

https://www.radwin.com/

Let me know what you think.

N

Nicholas S. Thompson

Emeritus Professor of Psychology and Biology

Clark University

http://home.earthlink.net/~nickthompson/naturaldesigns/

From: Friam [[hidden email]] On Behalf Of Steven A Smith
Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2018 12:53 AM
To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group [hidden email]
Subject: Re: [FRIAM] The Last Mile, again

Thanks So much. Can you explain the following passage in greater detail? What do you mean by “over-subscription”.

If I actually got my 10Mbps down and 5Mbps up from my provider consistently and I had say 4 devices running in my house, potentially all trying to use *all* 10/5, then within my household I would be "oversubscribed" by 4X.   Of course, I know that it is unlikely for all 4 devices to be trying to push/pull that hard at the same time, continuously so for all practical purposes, my 10/5 is available to all 4 devices under most "normal" circumstances.

I don't know who (if anyone) regulates oversubscription of bandwidth, in this modern wild west it is probably just market forces.

That seems to be what they are promising. See my answer to Gary, just sent. The said that they had contracted for a 1 gig pipe and that that would take care of anything subscribers could throw at them. I didn’t make any sense to me, but perhaps I just misunderstood. If I understood the units, 40 users could exhaust I G if they all got on at the same time.

Yes, I misregistered the units by 10x. IF 40 users all started pushing (or pulling) as hard as the link would let them (25/3) at the same time, continuously, then you would begin to see degradation (probably sooner for lots of reasons), but the fact is, very few people have the need to use the network that heavily except in bursts and rarely is there a service on the other end willing to meet them halfway and push/pull that much data.   If they are planning on supporting 100 users, then they are at a 2.5X oversubscription rate, but from anecdotal evidence, THAT is very reasonable.

I assume we are talking about Mega/Giga per second here. So to carry out the promise as I heard it, they would have to have a 1 gig pipe for every 40 users and they are talking about 100-200 users to begin with. So, is that what you mean by “over-subscription”: the number of paid subscribers who would be left out if everybody tried to get on simultaneously at full speed?

Yes, that is a correct understanding, but as I indicated above, it is unlikely that anyone, much less everyone can push/pull that hard except very intermittently.

What questions should I be asking them?

I think they are making all of the right promises and suggesting all the right things... the real proof will be in their execution.   You aren't in a good position to be second guessing too much about their technical design, but what their redundancy/backup plans are may define how long they stay down if a backhoe, for example, cuts their main line... or if lightning fries a rack of gear, etc.    They probably will tell you reassuring things in any case, so the bigger question is whether you trust them.

One thing that might be *real* problems are "line of sight" from your location to one of their towers... if you can *see* one or more of the hilltops where they have towers, you are in pretty good shape unless you are seeing it through your bare trees (or right past the edge) or your neighbor puts up a big barn in the way.

Another is whether they have the install capacity to stand up 100 or more customers quickly... one install team might be able to do several a day (without problems) but with delays and weekends, that might mean some customers won't see service for a couple of months.
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove
============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
to unsubscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/ by Dr. Strangelove