Testing ... Can Friam support WYSIWIS?

[Owen Densmore]

We've all heard about WYSIWYG but that just means your printer can show what your screen shows.  Nice but in the age of the net, WYSIWIS is *much* more important -- What You See Is What I See.

By that I mean that I can have some confidence that what I'm sending to you in email or posting for you on the web looks the same to you as to me.

In an earlier post, http://tinyurl.com/6x3g7a 

.. I discussed the difficulty of rendering Math Notation within blogs, wikis etc.

This however, is a test to see if we can do Math in email.  So we have to try slightly different stunts.  Most email clients support "rich text".  I'm not sure if this is standard enough, however, for the Friam list.

So this is a test.  I'm inserting an equation .. and image that renders:

E = -J \sum_{i=1}^N s_i s_{i+1}

..using the LaTeX web service:

  http://www.codecogs.com/eq.latex

You can run it using

  http://tinyurl.com/5o238w

and the results should give this image:

<img style="-webkit-user-select: none" src="http://www.codecogs.com/eq.latex?E%20=%20-J%20\sum_{i=1}^N%20s_i%20s_{i+1}">

To test for WYSIWYG, I'm posting What I See in my mail client here:

  http://backspaces.net/temp/Mail001.png

Do you see something similar?  Can we use this stunt for math conversations on Friam?

   -- Owen

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[Owen Densmore]

Just for tests, here is the rendering of the email I sent in  
Thunderbird, and on our Nabble archive:
   http://backspaces.net/temp/Safari001.png
   http://backspaces.net/temp/Thunderbird001.png

Not too bad.  Some font problems where the fonts render differently on  
different platforms.  And Nabble left-justified the equation image.

    -- Owen


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[Owen Densmore]

On Jul 28, 2008, at 3:45 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> It showed up perfectly in Outlook 2007.
>
> Frank


That's great news!

If anyone finds it easy to do, could you send an experiment on your  
side using an equation you build somehow?

   -- Owen



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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Owen Densmore wrote:
> Do you see something similar?  Can we use this stunt for math
> conversations on Friam?
For security, Thunderbird 2 doesn't want to show remote images.  There's
an option to allow it on a person by person basis, but actually that
doesn't work for me either.

Marcus

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[Tom Johnson]

Looks find in Gmail, although the URLs in the message are NOT hyperlink, which they are in the Rich Text Format of Gmail.

-tj

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:28 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

We've all heard about WYSIWYG but that just means your printer can show what your screen shows.  Nice but in the age of the net, WYSIWIS is *much* more important -- What You See Is What I See.

By that I mean that I can have some confidence that what I'm sending to you in email or posting for you on the web looks the same to you as to me.

In an earlier post, http://tinyurl.com/6x3g7a 

.. I discussed the difficulty of rendering Math Notation within blogs, wikis etc.

This however, is a test to see if we can do Math in email.  So we have to try slightly different stunts.  Most email clients support "rich text".  I'm not sure if this is standard enough, however, for the Friam list.

So this is a test.  I'm inserting an equation .. and image that renders:

E = -J \sum_{i=1}^N s_i s_{i+1}

..using the LaTeX web service:

  http://www.codecogs.com/eq.latex

You can run it using

  http://tinyurl.com/5o238w

and the results should give this image:

To test for WYSIWYG, I'm posting What I See in my mail client here:

  http://backspaces.net/temp/Mail001.png

Do you see something similar?  Can we use this stunt for math conversations on Friam?

   -- Owen

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--
==========================================
J. T. Johnson
Institute for Analytic Journalism -- Santa Fe, NM USA
www.analyticjournalism.com
505.577.6482(c) 505.473.9646(h)
http://www.jtjohnson.com [hidden email]

"You never change things by fighting the existing reality.
To change something, build a new model that makes the
existing model obsolete."
-- Buckminster Fuller
==========================================

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[Russell Standish]

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 03:28:13PM -0600, Owen Densmore wrote:

> We've all heard about WYSIWYG but that just means your printer can  
> show what your screen shows.  Nice but in the age of the net, WYSIWIS  
> is *much* more important -- What You See Is What I See.
>
> By that I mean that I can have some confidence that what I'm sending  
> to you in email or posting for you on the web looks the same to you as  
> to me.
>
> In an earlier post, http://tinyurl.com/6x3g7a
> .. I discussed the difficulty of rendering Math Notation within blogs,  
> wikis etc.
>
> This however, is a test to see if we can do Math in email.  So we have  
> to try slightly different stunts.  Most email clients support "rich  
> text".  I'm not sure if this is standard enough, however, for the  
> Friam list.
>
> So this is a test.  I'm inserting an equation .. and image that renders:
> E = -J \sum_{i=1}^N s_i s_{i+1}
> ..using the LaTeX web service:
>   http://www.codecogs.com/eq.latex
> You can run it using
>   http://tinyurl.com/5o238w
> and the results should give this image:
>
>
> To test for WYSIWYG, I'm posting What I See in my mail client here:
>   http://backspaces.net/temp/Mail001.png
>
> Do you see something similar?  Can we use this stunt for math  
> conversations on Friam?
>
>    -- Owen
>
>

> ============================================================
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
> lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

I don't see either image in my email client, just the LaTeX markup and
a few URLs.

I can copy/paste the URLs into a web browser, but this would quickly
become tedious, and could be made simpler if you just typeset the
whole thing in LaTeX and posted a PDF somewhere.

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
Mathematics                        
UNSW SYDNEY 2052                 [hidden email]
Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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[Robert Holmes]

But Owen, why are you trying to put equations into emails? Professor David West's thread has already shown that anyone using math is a victim of the dominant western scientific episteme's cultural hegemony and as such should be helped to overcome their akrasia (the state of acting against their better judgement) and obtain a proper phronetic relationship with this world. And that includes only using plain text in emails.

metaphorically yours,

Robert

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jul 28, 2008, at 3:45 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> It showed up perfectly in Outlook 2007.
>
> Frank


That's great news!

If anyone finds it easy to do, could you send an experiment on your
side using an equation you build somehow?

  -- Owen



============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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[Douglas Roberts-2]

Finally!

Some serious sarcasm (other than that provided occasionally by yours truly) on this list.

</sarcasm>

--Doug

--
Doug Roberts, RTI International
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:18 AM, Robert Holmes <[hidden email]> wrote:

But Owen, why are you trying to put equations into emails? Professor David West's thread has already shown that anyone using math is a victim of the dominant western scientific episteme's cultural hegemony and as such should be helped to overcome their akrasia (the state of acting against their better judgement) and obtain a proper phronetic relationship with this world. And that includes only using plain text in emails.

metaphorically yours,

Robert

On Mon, Jul 28, 2008 at 3:50 PM, Owen Densmore <[hidden email]> wrote:

On Jul 28, 2008, at 3:45 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
> It showed up perfectly in Outlook 2007.
>
> Frank


That's great news!

If anyone finds it easy to do, could you send an experiment on your
side using an equation you build somehow?

  -- Owen



============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

============================================================
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Meets Fridays 9a-11:30 at cafe at St. John's College
lectures, archives, unsubscribe, maps at http://www.friam.org

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[Steve Smith]

> Finally!
>
> Some serious sarcasm (other than that provided occasionally by yours
> truly) on this list.
>
> </sarcasm>
<smartass comment>

Look outside your door... the ARST (Akrasia-Recovery Swat Team) is about
to break it down... we'll come spring you after you dry out a little.

As your sponsor, I told you to keep coming to meetings... your  
Logical-Positivists-Anonymous sisters and brothers are rooting for you!

And I hear you have been skipping your Libertarians-Anonymous meetings
too... I don't know your sponsor over there, but they need to consider a
serious intervention soon!

</smartass comment>

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[Douglas Roberts-2]

Clearly, I've been spending *way* too much time here, doing things like this and this.

Maybe I need to serious up a bit, and get all philosophical, or something...

</humor>

--
Doug Roberts, RTI International
[hidden email]
[hidden email]
505-455-7333 - Office
505-670-8195 - Cell

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 9:49 AM, Steve Smith <[hidden email]> wrote:

> Finally!
>
> Some serious sarcasm (other than that provided occasionally by yours
> truly) on this list.
>
> </sarcasm>

<smartass comment>

Look outside your door... the ARST (Akrasia-Recovery Swat Team) is about
to break it down... we'll come spring you after you dry out a little.

As your sponsor, I told you to keep coming to meetings... your
Logical-Positivists-Anonymous sisters and brothers are rooting for you!

And I hear you have been skipping your Libertarians-Anonymous meetings
too... I don't know your sponsor over there, but they need to consider a
serious intervention soon!

</smartass comment>

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[Marcus G. Daniels]

Steve Smith wrote:
>> Finally!
>>
>> Some serious sarcasm (other than that provided occasionally by yours
>> truly) on this list.
>>
>> </sarcasm>
>>    
> <smartass comment>
>  
You guys should be more careful about your markup.   Doug forgot his
start tag, and Steve has a space where he should not.   A suggested
alternative XML encoding might be

<comment tone="humor|dramatic" sense="inverted|direct">So Many Useless
Words</comment>

Or maybe you can use the Codecogs LaTeX converter to make your point
with notation.  Then at least it will be true!

Marcus



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[Owen Densmore]

On Jul 29, 2008, at 5:04 AM, Russell Standish wrote:
> I don't see either image in my email client, just the LaTeX markup and
> a few URLs.
>
> I can copy/paste the URLs into a web browser, but this would quickly
> become tedious, and could be made simpler if you just typeset the
> whole thing in LaTeX and posted a PDF somewhere.

Thanks Russell.  Which client?  I believe you use Mutt.  Does it have  
a "rich text" view mode?  Doesn't it make url's clickable even in  
plain text?

I ask because when I received my mailing via Mail.app, it too was as  
you describe.  I then asked to see it in the "next alternative" view  
and it went from plain text to html/rich text.  Url's are clickable in  
all modes, I believe.

I agree about latex/pdf being an alternative, but it's not mail.  I'm  
looking for a casual way to chat about math within email itself.  This  
could be a fools quest!

I will say that, just as I find I need two browsers (Safari and  
Firefox in my case), I also need two mail clients (Mail.app and  
Thunderbird).  In browser land, I have to use Firefox for MathML  
because Apple has not implemented it yet.  And Thunderbird seems to  
handle other mail issues better than Mail.app.

So maybe to do math in email we'll have to be willing to use multiple  
mailers or possibly Nabble.  It did OK: http://tinyurl.com/6qsyaj.

    -- Owen


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[Owen Densmore]

On Jul 29, 2008, at 9:18 AM, Robert Holmes wrote:

> But Owen, why are you trying to put equations into emails? Professor  
> David
> West's thread has already shown that anyone using math is a victim  
> of the
> dominant western scientific episteme's cultural hegemony and as such  
> should
> be helped to overcome their akrasia (the state of acting against their
> better judgement) and obtain a proper phronetic relationship with this
> world.

Guilty as charged!  Actually, I wanted to start some math discussions  
that were more along the line trying to understand the impact of  
things I'm studying, rather than the recent batch of metaphysics.

The specific example had to do with the Cayley-Hamiltion theorem,
   http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cayley_hamiltion_theorem
which I just stumbled across whilst going over a review of  
undergraduate math.  It shows that the "characteristic  
polynomial" (used in finding eigenvalues) is solved by the matrix  
itself.  This sorta blew my mind and I wanted to discuss it amongst  
those of us within Friam who are so unenlightened to care about such  
[what you said above].

You see, I think we can enjoy discussions within mathematics without  
worrying how many Sigmas fit on the head of a pin.

> And that includes only using plain text in emails.

I have to admit that I prefer plain text as well, generally going to a  
"rich" format only when necessary.  I'll suffer it if it makes  
discussing math easier.

>
> metaphorically yours,
>
> Robert


    -- Owen


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[Russell Standish]

On Tue, Jul 29, 2008 at 10:18:24AM -0600, Owen Densmore wrote:

> On Jul 29, 2008, at 5:04 AM, Russell Standish wrote:
> > I don't see either image in my email client, just the LaTeX markup and
> > a few URLs.
> >
> > I can copy/paste the URLs into a web browser, but this would quickly
> > become tedious, and could be made simpler if you just typeset the
> > whole thing in LaTeX and posted a PDF somewhere.
>
> Thanks Russell.  Which client?  I believe you use Mutt.  Does it have  
> a "rich text" view mode?  Doesn't it make url's clickable even in  
> plain text?

Yes, no, no (Mutt doesn't understand mice). I have it set to launch
lynx on HTML attachments (the usual way of including "rich text"), but
only ever do so if my respondent has forgotten to include a plain text
version. Lynx does not display images either. I did experiment with
getting mutt to launch Netscape (this was a while ago) on HTML attachments,
but waiting several minutes just to open an email was not an option.

>
> I ask because when I received my mailing via Mail.app, it too was as  
> you describe.  I then asked to see it in the "next alternative" view  
> and it went from plain text to html/rich text.  Url's are clickable in  
> all modes, I believe.
>

Its not the same thing. Mail.app is a GUI application, I believe. Mutt
is text only, which is one of its features IMHO.

> I agree about latex/pdf being an alternative, but it's not mail.  I'm  
> looking for a casual way to chat about math within email itself.  This  
> could be a fools quest!
>

I can't see what's wrong with just using LaTeX markup. Works with all
email clients, is searchable and most working mathematicians already
know it (since alternatives to LaTeX for mathematical typesetting are
sorely lacking!).

> I will say that, just as I find I need two browsers (Safari and  
> Firefox in my case), I also need two mail clients (Mail.app and  
> Thunderbird).  In browser land, I have to use Firefox for MathML  
> because Apple has not implemented it yet.  And Thunderbird seems to  
> handle other mail issues better than Mail.app.
>
> So maybe to do math in email we'll have to be willing to use multiple  
> mailers or possibly Nabble.  It did OK: http://tinyurl.com/6qsyaj.
>
>     -- Owen

Well suit yourself. If I'm not interested, you won't hear from me. If
I am, then I may request it to be typeset and sent to me as a PDF or
PS document, or simply a URL to Nabble as you did above. It really is
too much hard work to download individual GIFs.

--

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
A/Prof Russell Standish                  Phone [phone] (mobile)
Mathematics                        
UNSW SYDNEY 2052                 [hidden email]
Australia                                http://www.hpcoders.com.au
----------------------------------------------------------------------------

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